Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brianna Caradja

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 12:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brianna Caradja

Lack of notability, lack of relevancy, dubious claim to Dracula lineage (or, in case, one shared with thousands of other people) Dahn 07:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep I just watched a Discovery documentary about Dracula and she's featured in it as a "descendant of Dracula." While you claim "dubious claim to Dracula lineage," you haven't provided any sources refuting her claim. That being said, I trust the Discovery channel as a source a lot more than some Wikipedian. Just to prove that I'm not making this up and back up my claim, here's a snapshot: [1] If she indeed is the descendant of Dracula, then she's absolutely notable. EliasAlucard|Talk 08:51, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

Coment - 1. Is every descendant of Ţepeş' notable for being his descendant? 2. The claim of direct lineage is highly unlikely, as anyone vaguely familiar with Romanian history knows (ie: no direct lineage was necessary to become prince, all boyar familes were related to the prince, and something called the Phanariotes came about at some point - Brianna is a descendant, more or less direct, of the Caragea family, who were not "descendants of Dracula" more than hundreds of other families); even the sources you mention indicate that she is an [indirect] descendant of the 27th generation! Caradja has never made that claim inside Romania, arguably because she knows it is refutable for the said reasons. 3. And what else has she done, pray tell? A Google glance over Romanian journals says that she has: married an American, paid reporters to photograph her (!), married (re-married with?) a man who was supposed to be the son-in-law of Michael I of Romania. Dahn 08:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Would you at least provide your "Google" sources? You're only asserting things here without actually providing sources for your claims. EliasAlucard|Talk 09:10, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

[2], [3], [4]. All tabloids. Dahn 08:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, tabloids are extremely reliable. If tabloids write something, it must be true. Seriously, I take the word of Discovery any day over tabloids. As for the Caragea family, it seems they have history with Wallachia and that makes it more probable that she's a descendant of Dracula, and there's an article about Catherine Caradja too (could be family). Either way, to me, she seems notable whether or not she actually is a descendant of Dracula. EliasAlucard|Talk 09:20, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain som things. I was using tabloids precisely because they are the only Romanian sources on Brianna Cardja you will bump into on the entire internet, and with this kind of topics (in fact, there are two sites or so, with the same news, the odd English-language chat, and then that's it!). If you did not see the point about the Caradjas being a Phanariote family and how that relates to their descendants and their kinship with Dracula, then perhaps you should refrain from commenting on issues having to do with Romanian hisory. Dahn 08:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Unbelievable. You are ASSUMING that she's 100% from the Caragea family because of her surname. You haven't done serious research on her family lineage, YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT HER FAMILY LINEAGE IS OR ISN'T. A surname is a surname. It doesn't prove anything. You can have an Arab surname, but that doesn't make you an Arab. You're basing her entire lineage on her surname. And don't tell me to not comment on things. EliasAlucard|Talk 09:48, 18 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

Let me make it even more clear. Aside from the fact that it is very unlikely to be named Caradja and not be a Caradja in Romania, especially when you also say you're a princess, I will say that she'd better be a Caradja at the very least. Because, you see, Vlad Ţepeş' last direct male descendant, Petru cel Tânăr, died without heirs in 1568. Dahn 08:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why the fuck didn't you mention this from the beginning? You could've saved me lots of time. EliasAlucard|Talk 16:48, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but I believe I have told you several times already that Caradja (with or without the name) cannot be a direct descendant. Moreover, I have also mentioned that succession rules in yesteryear Wallachia were absurd (one of all male children, legitimate and illegimate alike, could inherit a title), and direct lineage was a non sequitur (in general, all such claims are dubious). Dahn 16:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't care what her surname is. Surnames change throughout the years. You can't expect a family lineage to have the same surname for 600 years. So a surname isn't really that important. But if his last male descendant died without heirs, that's another thing (I'd like to have a source for this if possible). EliasAlucard|Talk 22:53, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

1) "Caradja"/"Caragea" is not "Johnson", you know? It's more like "there might have been more than one families named House of Hannover in England". I'd wager that the name was not held by any family other than descendants of the original Carageas, who were Greek and came to Romania in the 1700s (300 years after Dracula died). This would imply that, since a princely claim is involved, Caradja is, at best, a descendant of those people. 2) Turns out I was wrong - I had forgotten that Petru and Alexandru II were brothers. Which leads us to Alexandru Coconul (the Child-Prince), who left no inheritors after his 1627 rule (Mihnea III was, possibly, his brother - he died without inheritors after getting whoopass from the Ottomans in 1659) - see here. With Matei Basarab, princes were no longer nominated after any real hereditary criteria, and all boyar families claimed to descend from the legendary rulers of the 1300s (which, if anything, would make them collateral).

Since it is highly unlikely that non-Caradjas could bear both the name Caradja and the "title" of prince (I should warn you that nobody was exactly a prince or princess after the 1870s), Dracula "blood" could only have come to them through a collateral branch; since the male line was extinguished before the 1630s (while parallel branches from Dracula's various brothers and uncles continued to exist) the very probability is ridiculous; since clear rules of succession were never really the case in medieval Wallachia, and women did not have the right to inherit, all such "genealogies" are merely shiny beads for the gullible. Dahn 22:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but please tell me, if she's not a descendant of Dracula, then why is she claiming to be a descendant of Dracula and how is it that the Discovery channel presents it as a fact? They're putting their credibility at stake by doing so, and I doubt they would want to screw up their credibility for a documentary about Dracula. EliasAlucard|Talk 23:49, 03 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

"Why is she claiming to be a descendent of Dracula?" Why do people claim to be descendents of anyone famous? It makes people think of you differently. "Why does the Discovery Channel present it as fact?" Presumably because they were hoodwinked as well - not every documentary maker is able to check every single fact thoroughly (every time I see documentaries about areas I'm interested in, I spot mistakes). BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Right. And so it was decided that Brianna Caradja is not a descendant of Dracula by the infallible Wikipedia community. Now, it has become a fact. EliasAlucard|Talk 00:43, 04 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

No, she may be a descendent of Dracula (if she is, she's still non-notable because she's 27 generations removed from someone notable). What I'm saying is that there are perfectly sensible reasons why she might claim to be one if she wasn't, and equally sensible reasons why a documentary might say that she was even if she wasn't. You asked two questions and were given two answers. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Alucard, you will watch your language, or else. Biruitorul 22:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Shut the fuck up fat boy. EliasAlucard|Talk 00:43, 04 Nov, 2006 (UTC)

I think you've said more than enough on this AfD. Tone down your language, or you will be blocked -- Samir धर्म 00:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Notability is only ever passed from generation to generation if one is a member of one of the major royal families of the world, and I doubt the branch concerned here is sufficiently major. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. --Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 08:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as other votes. In regards to the keep vote - it is not up to us to prove that she is not a descendent of Dracula, its is up to eny editors to prove that she is. Even supposing she were, given her relatively unnotable life, she would not merit any more than a small note in the dracula article.michaelCurtis ^talk+_{contributions} 09:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Per Dahn's arguments.--Yannismarou 09:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Descendance from even a major royal has no correlation to notability. At least one-third of the English population is descended from King John (this guy [5] claims every person of English descent is). --Charlene 10:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, probably most people of European descent are 27th-generation descendants of some or another royal. That doesn't make one notable. NawlinWiki 19:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Per above; descent, except within certain narrow confines, simply does not establish notability. Biruitorul 22:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Not notable. Valrith 23:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.