Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arbor View High School

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. This is a difficult debate to close, and I will do my best to explain my logic in closing it as "delete." The nomination has been proposed on grounds of non-notability. This is a common accusation against articles which turn up here, and an important one. Articles which fail to establish notability may be deleted even if they are verifiable and referenced. Now, there are four broad categories of "keep" votes present here.

The first asserts that all high schools are notable. One user cited WP:SCHOOL in support of this; this policy was rejected by the community and has no bearing here. Nowhere is there a binding assertion of notability for high schools, as opposed to four-year colleges and universities. No one has linked to any policies or guidelines which would reinforce such a view. The fact that previous articles on high schools are generally kept does not reinforce this debate. Therefore, such an assertion must be treated as a question of personal preference. The second category brings forth news sources to demonstrate notability. These sources discuss the school's construction. While the design of the school is indeed interesting, discussion of said design belongs in an article on urban design trends or architecture. The school itself cannot be notable in this instance simply for being built. Hundreds if not thousands are built or renovated every year; any local newspaper is bound to cover such a thing. There is no demonstrable evidence of wider notability for the school as opposed to the design. The third category is that of utility. Allow me to quote a user: "This is a valuable article for people that live near the school." That may be the case, but utility is not and never has been a reason to keep an article. Plenty of things are "useful." I find the walk-throughs on gameFaqs.com useful, but that doesn't make them worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia (not that such a consideration has prevented the ballooning of some game-related articles). The fourth category, finally, is the X, so Y category. Broadly, this is the assertion that because X exists, Y should exist; conversely, if Y is deleted, so should X. This has never been a proper keep/deletion criteria on Wikipedia. An article must stand or fall on its own merits or lack thereof, particularly when X and Y are not remotely similar in scope or quality.

In summation, then, this debate has failed to demonstrate a wider notability for this high school that would at this time merit inclusion in Wikipedia. It is entirely possible that future events will render said judgement obsolete, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Therefore: delete the current article, without prejudice to re-creation. Thank you for your time, and happy editing. Mackensen (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbor View High School

Unnotable school. Wikibout-Talk to me! 05:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment, First off, I'm pretty sure that Stuyvesant High School is notable (I'm assuming that was what you meant by placing it in quotes). Heck, it's a featured article. Secondly, I think a place that hundreds if not thousands of people are forced to attend every day assumes some sort of intrinsic notability. --Alphachimp talk 06:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • 1. After the three seconds I looked at the SHS article I have no doubts that the article establishes notability. After looking at the AVHS article for three seconds I also had no doubts that notability was not established (although I did a Google news search just to be sure). 2. There is no such thing as intrinsic notability. There are classes of objects that are considered notable because as a class they receive enough outside coverage that the discussion is moot. A Fortune 500 company is notable. A Formula 1 driver is notable. An accredited university is notable. High schools are not as a class notable. This doesn't mean there aren't high schools that are notable, it means that the listed articles have to establish notability for themselves. This one doesn't. ~ trialsanderrors 06:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment AVHS began last year and was heralded by the Las Vegas Sun as the "biggest and potentially most efficient campus the district has built" [1]. The school was built to hold 2700 students, but currently only holds 1500. The building was designed to "rewrites the book on modern high school construction" according to the architect that designed it. The point to all of this is that this high school is completely notable, even though it isn't Stuyvesant. --Alphachimp talk 06:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There you go. Here's more, from a Lexis-Nexis search on Western regional news:
  1. Arbor View High School; Education Project, K Through 12, Southwest Contractor, December 1, 2005, Features; Nevada Best of 2005; Pg. 76, 235 words, Staff
  2. Class Act; CORE Builds New Prototype Las Vegas High School, Southwest Contractor, September 1, 2005, Features; Pg. 38, 702 words, Tony Illia
  3. And so it begins..., Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), August 30, 2005 Tuesday, FINAL EDITION, B;, Pg. 1B, 888 words, Antonio Planas
  4. First-year Arbor View program displays heart, character in defeat, Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), August 27, 2005 Saturday, FINAL EDITION, C;, Pg. 1C, 645 words, Joe Hawk
  5. Site work begins on Town Square project, Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), August 22, 2005 Monday, FINAL EDITION, D;, Pg. 2D, 541 words, Hubble Smith
  6. 16. Arbor View High School, Southwest Contractor, June 1, 2005, Top Projects 2004; Nevada; Pg. 52, 101 words, Staff
  7. Students feel at home by design, Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), April 25, 2005 Monday, FINAL EDITION, B;, Pg. 1B, 569 words, Antonio Planas
  8. 314 students will stay at Cimarron, Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), March 2, 2005 Wednesday, FINAL EDITION, B;, Pg. 1B, 507 words, Antonio Planas
  9. In Brief, Las Vegas Review-Journal (Nevada), December 10, 2004 Friday, FINAL EDITION, B;, Pg. 12B, 147 words
  • I'm sure that should give you enough material to write the article. I'm not gonna change my vote though because my criterion for notability is news coverage outside its home region, and there is nothing for AVHS. ~ trialsanderrors
  • Comment, I'm going to put it on my list of things to do within the next day. Trouble is, someone could delete it after I make my changes. What should I do? (I've never actively tried to save a page before.) --Alphachimp talk 07:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You could start it on your user page, wait out the result of this AfD, and post it afterwards. I'm sure it won't get deleted with prejudice, so you can recreate it with new material. Or usually if notability is established during an AfD it is reflected in the votes. ~ trialsanderrors 07:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It does bear note that "the debate is not a vote". I'll go ahead and do that. As of right now I doubt that the article would be deleted, but I just don't want to lose my work. --Alphachimp talk 07:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. BryanG(talk) 06:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Should be expanded if possible, because as it stands, there is very little information here.
  • Strong Delete I am usually a defender of school articles, however, I firmly believe that this article has no place on Wikipedia. I also disagree with Truthbringer's rationale, not every school is notable. If that rationale was true then we would have to extend it to every single establishment that exists within most towns and cities. This school was recently created and there is absolutely not claim to notability and it does no stress it's subject's notability. We speedy delete any article that comes through new pages that doesn't stress the importance of it's subject. What gives this school a special exception to go around the rules? Yanksox (talk) 06:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, I think the difference between a school and "every single establishment that exists within most towns and cities" is that a school is a place that children are forced to attend 6-8 hours 5 days a week. In that our children spend 30-40 hours in school each week, individual schools assume an extremely notable role in our society. The microcosm of their politics often reflects those of society as a whole. --Alphachimp talk 07:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
But that doesn't make it notable. That makes it the standard normality. A school has to at least stress it's importance. I'll use a good example: the school I went to. The reason for it's notability is not just the alumni lisy and the 140+ year history, but was also affliated with a college, gets mentioned in large papers for academics and athletics, and it actually does whatever it can to stick out. If we keep a high school article that DOESN'T stress any importance at all, and suggest we keep it because it's the normality, that just doesn't click. This school is also too recently formed. I don't object to most school articles since they at least present interesting facts and at least attempt to seperate the school from others. But this article in it's current condition, and with the current facts just doesn't merit an article yet. Yanksox (talk) 13:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Precisely. That's why, in a few hours, I'm going to write a lot more for the article. --Alphachimp talk 14:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Despite my delete comment, I agree that some schools, like Yank's, can be notable. However, I would be amazed if a one-year-old school has an impressive history or alumni list, or any other factor in its favour other than it exists. Agent 86 18:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible non-speedy delete. I said this before - schools have no inherent notability. Give me a reason why this should be here (besides the fact that it exists), and I'll change my mind, but from the looks of it, there is nothing notable or newsworthy (on a national/international scale, mind you) about the school, any of its students, or any of its alumni. --Coredesat 06:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as the current article is written, this school is a total nonentity. I'm very much opposed to this idea that a school is somehow inherently notable because people attend it. Self-congratulatory public relations commentary from the city or the architects about its supposedly revolutionary design doesn't help with the notability case, and it doesn't sound like it's been around long enough to get any independent assessment thereof. Opabinia regalis 08:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Schools policy. --Arnzy (whats up?) 09:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as no notability stated or implied. Tychocat 09:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, there is no precedent for automatic keep votes for schools, and no "inherent notability" either. There is no "schools policy" on Wikipedia. As for this particular case: this school does not assert notability, nor have I been able to find any. I therefore see no reason why the article should remain. - Motor (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per Coredesat and Motor. WP:SCHOOL did not succeed, the creation of a wikiproject does not automatically confer encyclopedic value on any given article within that project, schools are not inherently notable (but an individual school can be notable), and "precedent" is meaningless because stare decisis does not apply to wikipedia. In for this particular school, it is absolutely lacking in any content that explains why a one year old school is encyclopedic or even notable in any way. Agent 86 18:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - no claims of notabily --Jaranda wat's sup 19:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - no assertions of notability in the article, and the article says it's just opened in 2005 which decrease the likelyhood of it to be notable. Furthermore, the article is rather short and conatains little or no information. --WinHunter (talk) 19:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Keep schools, and all other major public institutions. So what if it opened last year? Schools are notable per Alphachimp and previous discussions. (I might have a different opinion if this were a newly opened private school.) bikeable (talk) 21:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
No, schools are not instantly notable institutions, they are institutions but just because they belong to the general public does NOT make it a notable establishment. If this logic were true would we draw it to fire stations, police stations, etc. Since they also are part of public works. Something, I mean I use a small measure of something when dealing with school, has to happen to make in notable. There is nothing in a recently created school that makes it stand out. Yanksox (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete It is not true that all high schools are notable. Stuyvesant High School is notable for its nationally (and dare I say internationally?) acclaimed educational programs, the impact of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the school (due to its proximity to the World Trade Center), and its numerous well-known alumni. Kofi Annan spoke at the school's 2004 graduation and many of the students reflections of 9|11 were featured in a November 2001 issue of The New York Times. With an average SAT score of over 1400 (from the old 1600), Stuyvesant offers eleven foreign languages and math and science courses that rival some colleges. Now, for Arbor View High School? Well... it's... uh... part of the Clark County School District... and.. uh... it has an uninformative website. Nothing special. joturner 01:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Verifiable evidence of existence of school and it seems notable enough for mine. The general outcome of these debates is that schools are kept and I see no reason why this should be an exception. Capitalistroadster 03:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, This debate is very similar to another going on here. --Alphachimp talk 05:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete nn school; and not all schools are notable or this encyclopedia will be swamped with educruft. Carlossuarez46 06:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Based on what's said above, there seems to be a fair bit info available for expansion. We're not going to suddenly change course, and start deleting what's universally kept.--Rob 06:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment if it were "universally kept" then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Tychocat 07:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, they are universally kept. Do you know when the last time, a verifiable, real, non-copyvio, non-attack article on a high school was deleted? It's been a while. Feel free to give some AFD examples, that prove me wrong. --Rob 10:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I rarely vote in these school debates, but this one is too much. A recently-created high school that got a lot of local news coverage because it was created and has almost no other claim to importance? I'm sorry, but this fails any standard. If being a public building that people attend regularly is enough to be notable, then why is it that houses of worship that cannot assert notability are frequently deleted? Voluntary or involuntary attendance really doesn't change much. As far as I can tell, this article fails to assert its subject's notability, and were it anything other than a school (or maybe a Pokemon...) it would be nowhere near as controversial a deletion. GassyGuy 07:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per joturner; if there was anything notable or important about the school, the editors who created the article didn't include it and Alphachimp's findings above don't appear to add much. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and expand. Choalbaton 20:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It is important in its community and will gain increasing notability over time. Golfcam 21:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. A quote from this article in the Las Vegas Sun: "The 330,000-square-foot Arbor View High School campus on Whispering Sands Drive near the Gilcrease Orchard, is the first of a new two-story prototype that uses a mall design. ... The school's mall layout, with the four corners separated into "houses" and sharing the open central esplanade, will encourage a "small school environment" even though the school is by far the largest in the district..." Sure seems interesting and notable to me. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 23:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Personally, I think schools do have a place in Wikipedia, and I did create an article for my school and still maintain it. But, I voted by judging article at present, and, at present, it holds no notability claim. If it's expanded, I'd be more than happy to recommend it's continuing existance on Wikipedia, especially with all the swirling debate. JJJJust 23:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, as per info provided by User:Hit bull, win steak. Carioca 05:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep All schools deserve an article. Honbicot 16:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep yet another High School article up for AfD. What fun. — RJH (talk) 18:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a valuable article for people that live near the school. Ramseystreet 22:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep If we have pages on vandals, then Highschools should have articles.--Konstable 03:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The pages on vandals exit on the project space, not the mainspace, per WP:ASR. Yanksox (talk) 03:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The point was that there is obviously enough storage. High school articles are not simple unnotable bio articles that are an attempt at free personal web spaces, they're not spreading wrong information, they're not harming anyone. There is no point deleting them.--Konstable 03:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
As I have stated before I regularly defend high school articles and help them grow when they approach from NPP. However, this article has nothing to help it out. No history, nothing that makes it unique, nothing that makes it stick out. It's just too recent and there is nothing to elaborate upon this for now. Also, in regards to storage: You can defend alot of articles that run through AfD as innocent, benevolent little pieces. But roughly half of them, don't deserve or merit an article. Look at any regular High school article, there is at something interesting in the history or something to elaborate upon. This has nothing, it's stalled. There is nothing that seperates it or splits it away from nothing. Yanksox (talk) 03:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • keep please these are important articles Yuckfoo 18:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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