Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Kavadias

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep, no consensus. SushiGeek 22:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alex Kavadias

Non-notable Greek model with seven Google hits. Was tagged w/nn-bio when text read "one of Greece's fashion models" Was Prod'ed after weasel wording added, but Prod tag removed by article creator. Calton | Talk 00:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, non-notable. 5 Ghits. Royboycrashfan 00:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete--He:ah? 00:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete doesn't pass google test. not notable.  : ( Lonesomedovechocolate 01:57, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable. Anyone who's one of the "newest faces" in any industry is probably non-notable, this being a perfect example. --Icarus 03:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, nn. --Terence Ong 05:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep -- Luka Jačov 09:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 15:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This rising deletionist tendency is getting quite annoying. He might be notable in Greece/Athens for all we know. There is a world outside of English speaking countries. --estavisti 18:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Indeed there is, although it strikes me as a telling argument that "Αλεξ Καβαδίας" does not have an article on the Greek Wikipedia. That being said, we don't accord articles notability on spec. Either their subjects are verifiably notable, or they are not. RGTraynor 19:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment You raise a very good point. Why are these entries being put in the English Wikipedia, where it is difficult for us to determine if they're notable or not? Why not put them first into the Wikipedia in the country where they're allegedly famous? Fan1967 20:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Have you tried google search in GREEK!!??? Luka Jačov 18:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Answer Google for "Αλεξ Καβαδίας" and "Αλεξανδρος Καβαδίας" both turn up nothing. Search for "Αλεξανδρος Καββαδίας" (with two β's as it's shown in the article) shows two results, both an obituary of a Spyros Kavvadias, son of Alexander Kavvadias, a farmer who who died in 1943. Fan1967 22:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• Absolute Keep --ςerbiana ♫ 19:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Apparently non-notable in any language. Fan1967 22:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

• Note The author of this article seems to have created a number of similar articles for allegedly well-known Greek models. Fan1967 22:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That's cause they are well-known Greek models in the Greek fashion world and entertainment industry, many of them also used in music videos. Some have branched out into the international fashion world. You also can not say if a person is well-known or famous with a search you might do from a non Greek search engine. Perfect example, if you do a search on one of Greece's most famous actors as Θανάσσης Βέγγος, you only get three or four hits[1]. When dealing with Greek names, you also have to take into consideration of the fact that the name can be spelled in numerous different ways and that pronunciation plays a big part of getting the correct hits when doing a search. ~Mallaccaos, 10 April 2006

Comment I notice, by a remarkable coincidence, that it seems these well-known Greek models are all clients of the same modeling agency. You wouldn't, by chance, happen to be associated with Ace Models, would you? Fan1967 13:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a coincidence since I've also listed models from various other agencies as well. But to answer your question, no, not at all, I have no association what so ever with any of the model agencies these people are associated it with. The reason why Ace Models is representing most of them is because Ace Models is one of Greece biggest model agencies and a partner for many fashion magazines found in Greece, as well as advertising agencies, film productions houses, leading fashion catalogues and fashion designers use their services. Plus many of their models are former Miss Greeces and have been branching out internationally. Here I ago again sounding like I'm adversting for them but I'm not, just trying to explain why Ace Models is representing most of them. The next agency I'm planning on posting model info from is another big one from Greece IMAGE MANAGEMENT which represents Katerina Georgiadou. Besides I live in the States, they are from Greece....a)reason why my searches since they are done by non Greek search engines, such as yours, do not produce many results on their names. I do read/understand Greek though (aka magazines and other info pertaining towards the Greek pop culture) and own Greek satellite channels,in which these models as well as other Greek celebrities are featured on quite often. ;) ~Mallaccaos, 11 April 2006

OK, if you don't like non-Greek search engines, show us a search on a Greek search engine that shows him as notable. Seriously, there are thousands of models who've done multiple magazines and ad campaigns. Does that make them notable? For the most part, no. There are a handful of models (mainly female) who become celebrities. The vast majority are unknown to everyone except the agencies that hire them. Fan1967 00:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I said anywhere in my posts that I don't like non-Greek search engines. What i did say is, it is difficult to get hits from non Greek engines, since Greek names can be spelled in various ways including pronunciations which play a big part in the Greek language. As the example I gave above with Θανάσσης Βέγγος, one of Greece's most famous actors, where you only get three or four hits when searching for him with his name spelled that way, even with Greek search engines[2]. ~Mallaccaos, 12 April 2006

You ducked the issue. Can you show us a search, in any language, on any search engine, that shows this guy to be notable? I've never heard of this Thanassis Veggos, but when I try the same search for Μελίνα Μερκούρη (Melina Mercouri) I get over 50,000 hits. Fan1967 00:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't duck the issue, the point is just because you didn't hear of them, or are not familiar with certain individuals, or don't get many hits on search engines, does not mean they are not popular or not well know in their native countries. I brought up Θανάσσης Βέγγος because being of the biggest Greek stars in Greek movie history, he is a perfect example of what is being debated here; you only get a few hits when typing in his name even though he was one of the biggest comedy actors in Greek movie history. BTW, Θανάσσης Βέγγος was a more well known star then even Μελίνα Μερκούρη was in Greece, even though Μελίνα Μερκούρη was more in the spotlight for international issues. So saying that you get such amount of hits from a search engines, does not amount much of anything. ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

• Strong keep. As Wikipedia policies say, being non-notable is not a reason for deletion. --GTubio 10:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

* Comment - that's weird. I always thought that being non-notable was a reason for deletion. Which Wikipedia policies are you referring to? GRuban 12:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep by default. Notable-non notable distinction is inherently POV. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 10:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. He has been used numerious times to promote Greek and international products (such as Dolce & Gabbana and Prada) to the Greek market. Also is the model used for the 2004 Summer Olympics Greek music CDs and was one of the models used during the Olympics modeling show, which can be viewed at his official portfolio.[3] . ~Mallaccaos, 10 April 2006
• Keep, notability seems OK. Anonymous anonymous 21:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
• keep please notable to greek people avoid systemic biases Yuckfoo 23:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment That's the problem. Is he notable to Greek people? We've seen no evidence he is. Fan1967 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well for one thing the guy is on the covers of Greek music CDs for the 2004 Olympics and a familiar face in the Greek fashion world, his more recognized then you would think. ~ So are we to understand that popularity of non English celeberties is based on how many hits a person's name gets on search engines and not how popular a person is in his/her native land? In that case I can prove that theory flawed with the Θανάσσης Βέγγος example I gave above. It is stated above that since Βέγγος name does not produce many hits, he must not be well known, unlike say Μελίνα Μερκούρη who gets over 50,000 hits. Well as Greek-American I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you ask any Greek person who Θανάσσης Βέγγος is they will know. Oh and BTW notice that the search done on his name here[4], does not produce any hits about the fact that a municipal theatre of Piraeus was named after him. Non-notable people do not get buildings named after them. So once more, saying that you get such amount of hits from a search engines does not amount to much of anything in regards to how popular an individual is in his/her homeland. ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

Comment I am still waiting to see any sign that he is "popular in his native land." His picture is on a CD and in some magazines. Great. That means he's a working model. Can you offer any verification at all that any number of people in Greece have ever heard of him? Fan1967 15:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you offer any verification at all that any number of people in Greece have not ever heard of him? As I said before just because you don't get 50,000 hits from search engines does not amount to how well known an individual is in his/her homeland. Case in point Βέγγος, one of the biggest Greek stars with only 3 search hits. You also forgot to add fashion shows, runways and presentation events to your list above. As for his popularity, you can find that out if you check out Greek magazines, the Greek fashion world and Greek tv pop culture. ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

Please review the Wikipedia standard for Verifiability. "You can't prove he's not famous" does not count, and there's no rule that says the standards should be ignored for people who live in another country. Fan1967 16:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well that's a double standard if I ever heard one. So am I to understand that a person's popularity is based on how many hits he/she have on search engines? Because if that's the case then as proven above that is a flawed way of determining a person's popularity. ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

There's no double standard at all. Why should you not be held to standards of verifiability?Fan1967 16:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Which I ask you again; is the standards of verifiability "popularity" due on the amount of hits an individual gets on his/her names? Cause I can include numerious famous Greeks who get only a few search hits but are well known to the Greek culture in general if that's the case...and to make it more interesting, I'll include all the spellings of their names or as many spellings as I'm familiar with.  ;) ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

I've read the Verifiability and I don't see anything in the rules which says that the popularity of an individual is based only on the number of hits he/she get on search engines....unless I'm missing something...? ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

By the way, Veggos gets 9,000 hits on Greek Google if you spell his name correctly: Θανάσης Βέγγος. Fan1967 16:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW his name is also spelled Thanassis Vengos, Thanassis Veggos, Thanasis Vengos, Θανάση Βέγγος and Θανάση Βέγγο. Which points to what I said above and I quote: "When dealing with Greek names, you also have to take into consideration of the fact that the name can be spelled in numerous different ways and that pronunciation plays a big part on getting the correct hits when doing a search." By pronunciation I'm also talking about the τόνος. I've seen Kavadias in the Greek media that was talking about the male and female models used for the 2004 Olympics, mostly because it was made into such a big deal, the Olympics I'm talking about, spelled with two "v's", one "v", his first name as Alexander, Alekos, Aleko and Alex; Alekos written with a "w" and in other cases with a "o". ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

Fine. Find some verification of his notability uner any name. Fan1967 17:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

My question still stands: is his "verification" on how popular he is solely based on the number of hits an individual gets on search engines, even if he/she are more talked about and noticed in media outlets, then search engines? ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

Read the policies: WP:V, WP:RS. Do you have some verification that he is being talked about in other media outlets? For lack of anything better, search engines are a good indication of whether somebody's being talked about, and it's the usual standard for inclusion.Fan1967 19:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do, as mentioned previously, he has been featured in numerious Greek media outlets. As for the policies of wikipedia, I did read them and I didn't see anywhere where it says that a person's "verification" is based solely on how many search hits he/she gets on search engines. I did come across this though:

"Finding a good source may require some effort: Until more authors publish online, and more material is uploaded, some of the most reliable and informative sources are still available only in printed form. If you can't find a good source on the web, try a local library or bookstore. This can at times be a surprisingly fruitful endeavour."[5] ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

Wikipedia gets a lot of unknowns hoping to promote themselves here. Fan1967 19:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

That's understanable but I'm not associated with nor do I know Kavadias....wish I did, I'd be able to hang out with hot models... LoL! ... as it stands I don't know him nor am I trying to promote him or anyone else for that matter. ~Mallaccaos, 13 April 2006

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.