Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/21 (game) (relist nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was move to 21 (drinking game). There is no consensus to delete this, but I agree that when I think of the game 21, I think of Blackjack, not some obscure drinking game. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 21 (game)

One of the unsourced, and at this time externally unverifiable drinking game articles listed in a mass deletion earlier today (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Circle of Death (drinking game)) Per the closing statement of this aborted mass-nomination, this is an individual relist of the article. Please consider the article on its own merits, and not on the fact that many articles of this type have been nominated today -- Saberwyn 10:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Adding a request for verifiable sources to this article page would be a good way to start this process. Not having verification isn't an automatic deletion criterion, being unverifiable is - an important distinction. Before nominating an article for deletion, shouldn't the nominator at least research the article themselves, adding the sources if possible? I haven't tackled notability as this is not the reason given for nomination, but all drinking game are cultural memes that have lasted in many cases for centuries and appear in various places in popular literature etc. Also, the category listing didn't work because this sort of leg-work needs to be done on each drinking game article in turn. If some are verifiable and considered encyclopedic material by other editors, then the category delete is null and void. (Oh, and I know this one!)Vizjim 11:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, likely listed in the Best Drinking Games Book Ever as the "21 Gun Salute," BBC, and with 250+ Amazon.com drinking game books listed... --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 13:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. If deleted, redirect to Blackjack. No vote as I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to give informed opinion. 23skidoo 16:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete because it's an example of what WP:NOT (indiscriminate ... number 8). Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Point 8 says, I quote - Instruction manuals - while Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes. An article on this drinking game has the obvious potential to contain a) history and evolution of the game, b) its cultural significance, c) appearances in books, on TV shows, in films etc, and thus is more than simply a collection of rules (it doesn't matter if these things are not there or haven't been completed: the fact is, they could be inserted). However, the rules need to be included as otherwise it would be impossible to give a clear idea of the game - and I presume you are not arguing that the entries for Chess and Soccer should be deleted? Vizjim 11:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. No assertion of notability. Brian G. Crawford 21:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Except a published book and the BBC. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 00:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete of no obvious merit. Just zis Guy you know? 21:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You're right, things noted by one of the most highly respected international news organizations has no merit. Come on, Guy. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 12:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Another classic. Boo to puritans. -- GWO
• Keep, and move to 21 (drinking game). 21 (game) should redirect to blackjack, or disambiguate between the two. -Sean Curtin 06:15, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
• keep, move and redirect per Sean Curtin. Dspserpico 18:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, and move to 21 (drinking game) per Sean Curtin. (I remember playing it one time, but I don't remember having any fun.) Ewlyahoocom 20:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
• weak delete Due to the point about this being an instruction manual. It seems to belong either in Wiktionary or perhaps as a two-sentence entry in "Drinking Games".
• keep this but move it to 21 (drinking game)) Yuckfoo 18:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.