Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 13

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Turkey commits to accept outcomes from joint history commission

"Gul also said that Turkey declared it would accept the outcomes of the joint endeavor" http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060915&hn=36549

This is a posative move by Turkey, if the commission is ever created. A international commission would be a good way for everyone to get closure on this.

Could this be added to the main article?--SolDrury 10:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

But Armenians don't accept this suggestion. Because, It is not clear to be a genocide. If it was not a genoside, Armenians had lied all of the World for years. And they will under impressions of World. Also Turkey will want an atonement from Armenian for their aspersion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.108.133.131 (talk • contribs).

This is just a silly turkish attempt to ignore 80 years of analysis, as if history is about joint endeavors. The question is whether turks want to be known as blind fundamentalists or as rational humanists. With 1.5million lifes on the table there are few places to hide.88.16.44.192 22:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Then please analyse this Image:Turkish children killed by armenians.jpg
There are more pictures this is just one of them Obsteel 11:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


But you have to see this one too. Turkish Children, women and mothers whose babies were disemboweled from their wombs by Armenians in April 25th, 1918 in Subatan.
Image:C3 72.jpg
Obsteel 12:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Reference "Massacre Exerted By The Armenian On The Turks During World War I Pictures" Obsteel 12:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
That would be amusing (if it were on a less serious subject). Subatan was within the territory of the Armenian Republic in April 1918 - so whatever massacre the picture shows, it was not taken at Subatan. Meowy 23:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
So you mean That there were no Turks living there? what is the logic?

Uh, out of curiosity, how are you guys so sure these simply aren't Armenians who were killed by Turks? I would be inclined to believe you guys and everything but there's a slight problem when no on corroborates your BS stories. --MarshallBagramyan 23:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

because now you have a monopoly on truth? I know its hard for you to grasp the fact that there was no genocide, just inter communal massacres in which your people were enthusiastic participants. There is more than enough documented proof on this but again, it doesnt fit your devious agenda to come to terms with it. Dont worry, the other side wont budge an inch either. Not in a million years! lutherian 14:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Lutherian, it seems as though its hard for you to grasp the fact that there was was indeed a genocide against Armenians perpetrated by Ottoman Turkish forces. I also like how you accuse the Armenians of having a "devious agenda" when clearly the government of Turkey has been attempting to suppress and silence mention of the event not only in Turkey but beyond their borders too. I once read that when Israeli politicians moved to have Israel recognize the event as a genocide, Turkey contacted the government and threatened the status of Jews within Turkey if the action was approved. Such an aggressive attitude will only contribute to the inevitable downfall of Turkey. -- Clevelander 14:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Ravished Armenia

Someone should mention this movie in the Art section: Ravished Armenia.--Eupator 14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The promtional poster of this film is highly denigrating and racist, it has no business here lutherian 13:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
No matter what your opinion of it is, it's still history and should remain intact. Please stop reverting this article and writing sarcastic remarks in reference to other users. -- Clevelander 12:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

progpaganda back on track

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

Hectorian WP:3RR violation

You have disregarded the warning which reflects on your bad faith lutherian 12:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not break any rule. If the IP is yours u are in biggggggggggg trouble... --Hectorian 12:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
gosh im sooooo scared that I need to take a dump this instant, is that ok with u? lutherian 12:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


I think it is pretty obvious the only reason that it hasnt been officialy recognized as a genocidal act is because certain Nations like the United States and others wish to maintain good relations with Turkey. Furthermore, just admit that Armenians have had it rough throughout history and even had to bear the brunt of Islamic Imperialism at the hands of the ruthless Turkic barbarians.

"Islamic Imperialism" new social science discovery of the year... :)...neurobio 23:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Lutherian RFC

Don't you think it's time?--Eupator 15:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts from Jorgenpfhartogs

Gentlemen, please keep it civilized. Whether, you're right or not. This topic is highly controversial so a NPOV is almost impossible. Just recide to facts and not to popular beliefs. I won't agree or deny there has been an Armenian Genocide: all I know is that a lot of Armenians died in those last moments of the War and if, as mentioned to me by Turks, this was a reprisal for atrocities committed by Armenians, the please proof this. It has been suggested that the proof supplied by the "Western World" is one-sided and always favours their "Christian allies". I do not see the world as divided between east and west and between Christians and muslims. If there was a Turkish genocide by Aremnians than proof this and if the proof given by so-called Armenian Supporters is wrong them please mention why. Jorgenpfhartogs 15:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

errrr "Turkish genocide by Aremnians"? Thats the first time I hear that the Armenians comitted a genocide on Turks! Could you rephrase pls? lutherian 16:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this has been suggested quite often. Stanford Shaw a proffesor at UCLA depicted the Armenians as the victimizers rather than victims in their book The Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey. Bernard Lewis, a well known Western scholar of Islam has expressed similiar sentiments. This has been discussed in the epilogue of The Burning Tigress if you would care to research these claims more.Max The Dog 14:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I should add that these claims are not treated kindly in Balakian's book. Nor, do I personally believe the Armenians committed any acts near the scale as what was perpetrated upon them. Max The Dog 14:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think, my dear fellow, that you are confusing massacre with genocide, two words with very different meanings. I dont think that professor Shaw ever said that the massacres perpetrated by Armenians on Turks amounted to an act of genocide! Balakian is not a reference as he is extremely one sided (which is to be expected from a hardcore armenian). What is being contested here is whether the massacres perpetrated by the Turks on their armenian subjects amounts to genocide. There is a world of evidence that rejects this claim and this is the main reason why this topic has been shrouded in controversy since the accusations first came to light lutherian 17:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Balakian is one of the finest writers that I know of (regardless of his ethnicity). I have read both The Burning Tigris and Black Dog of Fate. The former, I believe is a very solid source of information (not to mention very well-written). Balakian has certainly done painstaking research on the subject. I also enjoy his creative writing (though I enjoy the works of William Saroyan more). -- Clevelander 23:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This article spends far too much time explaining away why Turkey rejects the accusations of the Genocide yet little has been cited to how the Genocide was carried out. The best thing to do is move them into another article called Denial of the Armenian Genocide (the current redirect is insufficent). While Turkey and to a lesser degree Azerbaijan deny the Genocide from ever occuring (other countries that do overtly deny it do it for obvious political reasons; i.e. US Congress vote in 2000), the overall consensus is that it did happen. We can spend our time editing the article on the facts we have and what was being reported back then and then devote the Denial page to what Turkey's position is to the matter and opposing views thereafter. Nearly 15 kilobytes of this article just spends time refuting Armenian charges.--MarshallBagramyan 00:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree, I think it's time somebody created a Denial of the Armenian Genocide article. -- Clevelander 01:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
yes, thats perfect, why dont we rewrite histroy, remove all the opposition to the genocide thesis and make this topic a pure propaganda piece. And to add insult to injury call the opposing view denial to put them in the same category as those that deny the Jewish holocaust, like that the credibility of the opposing view can be shattered further. Wow, your modus operandi seems to be identical whoever you are as long as you are of armenian ancestory or a sympathizer because you have a serious gripe with the existance of Turkey. There is a very predictable pattern here which is what makes this whole exercise such a big farce lutherian 05:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The mere fact is that the "opposition" to the Genocide thesis is held by an extremely small minority: Turkey and only a handful of relatively unknown scholars. So far, the "opposing view" does not present any citations nor does not refute of what eyewitnesses were claiming back then. Its going to take much more than screaming "they were Christian, they were biased which meant they lied" than that. You've done little to show us what irks you so much. The Genocide has been recognized by many nations and so the opposition position does not deserve so much room on this article especially when its a minority and oft-criticized view. --MarshallBagramyan 05:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
You Mr. Bagramyan can argue all you want, it is a matter of FACT that your opinion of events of that period are nothing short of bigotry. When you add a gay racist satanist heavy metal bands to support your claims, propaganda ads or assume that because some fundamentalist american physician talked about massacres that his POV should be taken seriously or that convicted criminals like Akcam speak the truth whilst the words of highly respected scholars such as Lewis or Shaw should be dismissed because you and others claim that they are on the payroll of the Turkish government, its difficult to take you seriously. And maybe the most insidious and despicable addition to this topic is the attempt to make comparisons with the Jewish Holocaust to gain the sympathy of Jews. It is frankly in very bad taste! What you people fail to understand is that bullying, denigrating your opponents and making wild claims and attempting to distort the truth will get you nowhere. No wonder this argument has been dragging on for more than 90 yrs. lutherian 08:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Lutherian, Taner Akçam is a very credible scholar and free thinker. He is also very brave for speaking against what the government of his country is doing - attempting to suppress the facts and violating human rights. Lewis, Shaw, and McCarthy on the other hand have both been payed and sponsered by the Turkish government to support their denial of the actual events.
I would also say that the Armenian Genocide was in many ways similar to the Holocaust. Take for example the death marches, extermination centers, cutting off the "head of Armenian society" (the intellectuals, writers, etc.), throwing Armenians into a cave and then placing a torch in front of the entrance as a sort of crude "gas chamber," the cattle cars, the Armenian resistance at Musa Dagh and Van (like the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto), and of course there are even more events that I can use to compare both. Your statement that comparing it to the Jewish Holocaust is "insidious and despicable" is, in my opinion bigotry. In fact, I would say that the Genocide itself and its subsequent denial should properly be dubbed insidious and despicable. Also, you mention "bullying." All I have to say is look at Armenian and Turkey today. Who has closed off their border to Armenia? Who has forced Armenians in their own country into not accepting the Genocide? Who is trying to assimlate their Armenian population? Who dubs all Armenians as terrorists? The answer is consistently Turkey. -- Clevelander 10:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
yeah thats right Celvelander, the evil, despicable, inferior, barbarian Turks, they are the ones to blame for all the death and destruction, heck why not even the Jewish holocaust? (im surprised none of you came up with some way of blaming the Turks for the Jewish holocaust). Poooor Armenians, such an honorable and peaceful and loyal race, would not hurt a fly and how dare we call them terrorists??? For what happened in the 70's and 80's? Come on, after all it was just a bunch of inferior Turks that were murdered, its so easy to read your thoughts! Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? And whilst you're at it maybe throw some land as a goodwill gesture? Do you really believe that or are just insane? Have the armenians ever showed any goodwill gesture since this dispute arose? Ha, that would be the day! lutherian 16:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 :) Just reading the stuff this guy says to me makes me want to laugh; moreso whenever he claims that Armenians are filled with bigotry when 90% of his post fills up against pent-up anger against Armenians :). Do you really believe that or are just insane? Hehe, this isn't the complaint dept. pal, this is Wikipedia, post your diatribe elsewhere.--MarshallBagramyan 17:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
actually im lamenting about the sorry state of this topic which has been hijacked by a bunch of thugs who want to push their propaganda ways lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Սթափ ֆիդինգ դը թռոլ, both of you. --Eupator 17:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Բայց Ինքը սկսեց :) դժբախտաբար, Ինքը ստեղ էլ կ մնա --MarshallBagramyan 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Արդեն իրան ոչ ոք լուրջ չի ընդունում մեկա, ես գնտում որ դրանց հետ վիճել իմաստ չունի այլ հակառակը պատասխանելով մենք իրանց ոնց որ թե օրինականություն տանք: Վաղ թե ուշ դրան կտշեն ստեղից:--Eupator 18:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

fjalsdfkjéweahéwefwasfsdsucka ma pagoda?asdhjsldfehaeoiergosdf apsdfhfweoawhe? lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

lol, խենթացավ հիմարը; պարզապես ճԻշտ ես, այս Թուրքերը էշից ավելի "էշ" էն; եվ այտպես էլ կ մնան --MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for interfering, but i could not help myself on commenting in this: Im just curious, do you believe that you are going to get Turkey to recognize a complete fallacy? And maybe follow it up by opening its borders to allow free trade? (by lutherian)... I am astonished! Do u really believe that Turkey will be accepted in the EU, and we will open our borders to allow free trade and citizens' movements as long as Turkey does not fulfill the criteria? Recently the European Parliament said that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide may be a criterio for Turkey's accession... If Turkey's deep state (i never blame the people, u know:)...) wants "special treatment" (as they want in the Cyprus issue), all they'll get will be a "special relation with the EU"... Full membership will come only if they act and do what all the other members do... --Hectorian 17:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
you dont get it do you? Its the desire to align itself with European norms that matters because thats where it has most to gain. Turkey has no business joining the EU and they wont, thank God for that! And you know where the EU can shove its offer for a "special relationship", right? By the middle of the century, your old fart EU will be begging for a strong enough labor force to support its rapidly ageing population. Look around you (maybe not in the case of insignificant members like greece I may add), the social institutions are crumbling under their own weight, its pathetic. No way josé, Turkey certainly doesnt belong to your shithole and soon to be bankrupt club! lutherian 18:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah... Europe does not sacrifice democracy for labour force... Btw, what u "forgot" to say is that by the middle of the century maybe Turkey will be partitioned AGAIN. Cause, as u probably know, Europe is getting united, but Turkey is disolving... a view of what is happening in the big cities and the SE, as well as the ongoing disputes between Erdogan and the new Prima General, are forcing things to the edge... --Hectorian 18:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
yeah I know it gives you a hard on to fantasize about the end of Turkey and its rather funny considering that less than 60 years ago your beloved Eurosuckers were busy killing each other wholesale. You talk of unity? Uh its not what the polls show, lets see.....who rejected the so called European constitution not so long ago? Paleeeeassse, take your silly ideas to lala land! lutherian 20:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
...and you would call Turkey a model of unity? I suppose that's why the Kurds want to separate from it. Let us not forget that just a decade ago your beloved Turkey was busy killing off and assimilating the Kurds wholesale. -- Clevelander 20:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Guys stick to the topic please.--MarshallBagramyan 19:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It begun as something relevant: Turkish blockage on Armenia and EU Parliament considering the recognition of the Armenian Genocide as a precondition for Turkey's accesion. but it was carried away... anyway, i am not gonna continue it. --Hectorian 19:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
You are correct Hectorian. What we mean is: Μην ταϊ'στε...--Eupator 22:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Lewis, Shaw, and McCarthy on the other hand have both been payed and sponsered by the Turkish government to support their denial of the actual events" how do you know that they are paid? i expected that you are logical guys.now i see that you are also fool.if u say that they are paid, some people will say that Taner akcam and the others are also paid..be logical..hipatian

Hijacked Topic

Once again this controversial topic is hijacked by a band of hard core armenians and their sympathizers. The usual suspects: Eupator, Hectorian, Clevelander, marshalbargmayan and angus amongst others. Their complete lack of scruples and their highly biased and propagandistic approach to this topic is resulting in a very misleading view of events, way below wiki standards. Any information that contradicts the genocide thesis, irrespective of its validity is rapidly eliminated and kept out of the topic through edit warring maintained by a 24 hour monitoring by the core group and their stooges. So congratulations to you for making this arguably one of the poorest (in terms of quality of content) topics in wikiland. lutherian 16:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Has ever crossed your mind the idea of u trying to hijack this article, but other users not letting u to? --Hectorian 16:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you understand the definition of hijacking? In any case the evidence is on the pages and I have nothing else to add! lutherian 16:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, right... --Hectorian 16:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI - Comment added at request of Artist to "art" section

Armenian-American keyboardist Derek Sherinian collaborated with duduk master Djivan Gasparyan on the song "Prelude To Battle", which Sherinian "dedicated to his great grandmother who fought the Turks in the Armenian genocide" as part of his 2006 CD "Blood of the Snake".

Thank you.

Tvccs 06:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Rest of this discussion moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

Turco-Armenian Relations and British Propaganda During The First World War. LVIII

What an ungrateful government you have. The British and their Russophobia are the only reason the Republic of Turkey even exists today.--Eupator 19:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Anon, pls ignore this provocative racist! lutherian 06:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
what a perfect crowd again. I previously showed your "grand master" that the picture you are using actually shows russian soldier posing in front of cicumcised victim still you have the photo and dont feel ashamed of writing genocide victims under it. That is a nice summary of your state of mind.
just to remind you: and the only reason Armenian people are dead en masse is the ignorance and blinded obdience of pathetic armenian intellectuals/revolutionaries of the time to their masters. I see the time has changed but not much has changed.neurobio 12:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing picture

Armenian Genocide victims
Enlarge
Armenian Genocide victims

Dear all I am removing the unsourced picture where Russian-Armenian soldiers are posing in front of their circumcised visctims. or should I write muslim victims of Armenian voulunteers in the russian army on it?neurobio 11:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How do you know the soldiers are Russian-Armenian? —Khoikhoi 23:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, do you have verifiable evidence or written proof of this or is this your own observation? -- Clevelander 23:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
He doesn't. The only reason I didn't readd the image was because it was unattributed.--Eupator 00:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I did find a source...but the website seems to be like the counterpart of TAT. The caption on the image reads:
Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims. To these Muslims, the "Christians were like animals to be hunted."
Regarding the link about Muhammed: if that's not Islamophobia I don't know what is. :( —Khoikhoi 00:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. I was going check out the source where the image specfically was uploaded from (Armeniapedia.org) and see if it was taken by Armin T. Wegner. I'm afraid can't do that, however, as an Azeri hacker seems to have completely wiped Armeniapedia's domain (the administrator of the site, fellow WikiArmenian contributor Raffi Kojian told me of earlier incidents during this week). -- Clevelander 00:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Can it be restored? —Khoikhoi 00:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Raffi can restore it (he did it when it first happened this week). It was brought to my attention at first by my friend Avik Topchyan. He posted details about the incident on the WikiProject Azeri talk page [1]. The guy's name is Murad Mamedov according to the information Raffi provided. -- Clevelander 00:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Using Google's cache, I was able to recover this [2] and this [3]. No information on where it came from, though. Perhaps Raffi can tell us. -- Clevelander 00:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
unfortunately these are russian soldier. let me prove it. First they are not Turkish soldiers. it doesnt need any source every Turkish person knows that the Turkis army started using these round hats (see... the guy on the left is wearing one of these)long after the Turkish republic. These hats were not used by germans also. if you are not satisfied check these link to see Turkis army clothes.[[4]] [[5]] [[6]]. for german army:[[7]] So who were wearing that kind of uniforms? Fellow Russians ofcourse [[8]], [[9]][[10]](page 3)
And take a close look at the bayonets and rifles. See anything? the same bayonets and rifles.
Finally; the resolution is not good still if you take a close look you will see that some dead guys (if not all) are cicumcised. So Eupator I am not talking out of my A... You are withnessing a shameless act here. Putting pictures where muslims were killed by Russian-Armenian army and presenting it as a genocide proof. even writing Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims. To these, the "Christians were like animals to be hunted.". Simply nausating. neurobio 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
FYI: I say Russin-armenian army because American newspapers of that time were also using that description. And do not try to find its source. There is no source... It is not an Armin Wenger photo. neurobio 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but none of the uniforms in the pictures that you have shown perfectly match those worn in the image (Ottoman, Russian, and German - I'm not sure why you would even consider including the latter) and you still have not shown us written proof of your claims that these soldiers were Russian or Armenian and not Turkish. I say that we should continue to pursue the source of the image just to be sure. -- Clevelander 17:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

> my dear friend. I am telling you I digged to find the source myself for some time. there is no source. And even Fadix had to admit that these are Russian army clothes. The only army in the world that time that uses these two types of hats were the russian Army. the only two armies that use that long hat is Russian and Ottoman army. If it is not Turkish army (my sources clearly show that) than it is the russian army. And yes none army clothes match perfectly except for the hat combination that is why I say these are armenian Volunteers accompanied by Russian Officers. Minor differences are due to weather conditions, supply problems or they are the Armenian Volunteers. And I am telling you the dead guys are circumcised. What are you after still? I addet the german clothes because the german officers were in command of the ottoman army at that time. The last one is the revolutionary army clothes (1917) I added it to show that the rifle and bayonet is Russian style since it is perfectly visible there. What written proof is needed for a Forged picture?????? Do the Turkish side has to find the source of all made up pictures. it is the responsibilty of genocide Zealots. Take a close look at that famous otoman officers posing in front of choppet heads it also has no source and looks damm like photomontage. Now who is supposed to show it is real? the Turks? I guess not!!!!neurobio 20:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Calling all those academics "distinguished" is subjective and factually dishonest. What makes them so exceptional in comparison to Deborah Lipstadt, Elie Wiesel, and Samantha Power? Heath Lowry never held a full-time job as a college professor and all the books he had written were never carried by a mainstream publishing press. His Ataturk Chair in Turkish Studies at Princeton was partially funded by the Turkish government and Ahmet Ertegun, the Turkish co-founder of Atlantic Records. Bernard Lewis' position on the Genocide is equally dubious: he originally referred to it as a "terrible holocaust" in his 1962 book The Emergence of Modern Turkey and was subsequently fined (for a mere one franc) in France for denying the Genocide after reversing his position on the issue.
Stanford Shaw's essays on the Genocide have been widely criticized for portraying conditions during the war as especially rosy and pleasant, "The Armenians were to be protected and cared for until they returned to their homes after the war [obviously that didnt' happen]...Muslims wishing to occupy abandoned buildings could do so only as renters...with the understanding that they would have to leave when the original owners returned [oddly enough, several hundred thousand Armenians never did]...The deportees and their possessions were to be guarded by the army while in transit as well as in Iraq and Syria...the government would provided for their return once the crisis was over" - History of the ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey vol.2 Reform, Revolution and Republic: The rise of Modern Turkey.
McCarthy is a whole other bag of worms. Most, if not all, these academics can be discounted from holding any distinction.--MarshallBagramyan 21:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

unlike you I don think I have an ultimate authority to judge on historians still I wonder why armenians love "genocide scolars" who are actually Physicians, economicians or publishers so much. Anyway I will not talk about it. I discussed the reason why I added that (look down). If you are not happy with it that we should write down all academics who are opposing.neurobio 22:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Repeating the Turkish government's line of "leave the debate to the historians" gets old. Most scholars have discounted the "opposition's" arguments.

I suggest the "revert war" to end. Discuss and argue changes here. --MarshallBagramyan 22:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect such a decision. I have left wiki for 3 monts because i got fed up with revert wars.neurobio 22:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Now we are adding balakian haliculations there ha. McCarthy is a bag of worms and Balakian is cool.neurobio 14:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, Balakian simply collected the quotes....I don't think he ever made grand claims like McCarthy's ridiculous "2.5 million dead Muslims" claims --MarshallBagramyan 23:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC).

yes quotes that are results of selective copy pasting and miss leading and by the way quotes that can never be proven like the hitler quote. that number is the total muslim death in word war I what is so ridiculous about it. only in Gelibolu turkish army lost 300.000 in sarikamis 90.000 russian-armenia army killed some 500.000 plus poverty hunger and disease as simple as that. if you are going to add armenian sources then we can add Turkish sources and you wont like them for sure.neurobio 11:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you for real? Turkish army deaths? You're forgetting the dead from tribal Kurdish death squads:rolleyes 5,500,000 German soldiers died in WWII!--Eupator 14:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
as it is robustly documented from Ottoman archives 500.000 muslim deaths due to Russian-Armenian army and Armenian insurgent attacks are all civilians mostly women, children and elderly people.neurobio 00:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Whether the Ottoman archives support your claims that 500,000 Muslims died or not, if you actually saw all of the documents within it, you would see overwhelming proof supporting the idea that the deaths of Armenians in the final years of the Ottoman Empire were a result of a full-scale genocide. -- Clevelander 00:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
that is the tragic part. England was in control of Ottoman archive for years. they were desperately looking for evidence against prisoners in malta who were all high ranking Ottoman young turk officers. They found nothing. Ottoman archives are open today Your new draft Hilmar Kaiser(or something like that)and an another armenian researcher from an armenian institute worked there for months. they copied some 3000 documents illegally and found nothing. but SECRET orders to protect armenians to supply water and food to secure their belongings are plenty. Document showing the armeinan uprising and atrocities are plenty. Orders leting armenians to come back are plenty If you had a single document from ottoman archive Diaspora could have gone to an international court and end this for all. You could get good money and recognition from Turkey. Your case is not not valid and unproveble in terms of law. actually quite disproved by Ottoman documents. That is why you cant go to a court and end this. but instead diaspora continues propaganda all around so that this will be common knowledge someday.neurobio 00:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposition

First Due to the Nopov policiy this section cannot be named as Denial.Second there are some 20 western (as if they are more reliable) academics who oppose genocide claims. Inorder to make that article like a real article rather than a list we previously left only several prominent names and described them as prominent or distinguished. if these words go then 15 more names come back.neurobio 20:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

See WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If the vast majority of academics call it denial, then it should be presented as such (as a majority view) —Khoikhoi 21:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
in the academic community no word such as Denial is used except for "genocide scolars".

I will not discuss weather the genocide is universal or not. let me put it simple. is ASALA terorist? is Al kaida terorist. Is ETA terorist. Yes. But they are not named as Terorist organisations as a resuly of NoPov policy. As simple as that! I see not much has changed here. No discussion an many reverts...neurobio 21:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Not because of NPOV, but because of Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism... —Khoikhoi 21:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

it is just a subbranch of Nopov policy. Main idea is the same.neurobio 21:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hardly. It's more of a style guidline for making Wikipeida encyclopedic. —Khoikhoi 21:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on khoikhoi I know its difficult for you but at least try to be honest, your arguments are hollow lutherian 15:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
well we dont think the same here then. the section was named as opposition for a year. it was logical and true since the opposing party was also academics and historians. now what happened that it has become denial. Somebody found an archive document in tha Ottoman archives which says kill all armenians or what?neurobio 21:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
yeah its ironic how the same clowns that hijacked this topic and ganged up in a coordinated way with revert wars now ask that it be stopped right after they added their trash. Its also funny how the topic tends to get blocked right after the genocide gang have added their propaganda material. lutherian 15:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Population

According to

- Marcel Léart, an Armenian (Krikor Zohrab), who took the Armenian Patriarchate statistics as a basis of his estimates 2,560,000

- Armenian historian K. J. Basmachian 2,380,000

- Armenian Delegation that participated in the Paris Peace Conference 2,250,000

- Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000

- French Yellow Book 1,555,000

- Encyclopaedia Britannica 1,500,000

- Ludovic de Constenson 1,400,000

- H.F.B. Lynch 1,345,000

- Revue de Paris 1,300,000

- 1893 Ottoman statistics 1,001,465

- 1906 Ottoman statistics 1,120,748

- Ottoman statistics just before World War I 1,295,000

- Annual Register (London) 1,056,000

in lausanne peace treaty numbers from Ludovic de Constenson were used. the allies (england, France etc.) stated that Armenian numbers are highly inflated. neurobio 00:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It takes a little satisfaction to compare figures for Anatolia, Armenian Villiets, Asiatic Turkey with those of the entire Ottoman Empire. But do toy with articles, I don't have time to babysit. Fad (ix) 01:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

- :p neurobio 23:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


Eupator you have nothing to say... you are just a revert machine. I am citing Turkish sources and impartial sources count ha. lets se your references.

Balakian, Peter (2003). The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response. HarperCollins. ISBN 0060198400.

Dadrian, Vahakn, N., The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus, Berghahn Books, 1995

Cilicia.com - "Kurdistan Recognizes the Armenian Genocide"

OurArarat.com - "International Affirmation And Recognition Of The Armenian Genocide"

and so on. "you say also you need a ref for each name you and that so called "scholar" should at least be notable enough to have a wiki page". that is a very valid approach. From now on people who dont have a wiki page will loose their chairs. All these people have Prof. title and a chair in US universities. What are you talking about??? neurobio 00:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


yes Going to army and figting in all fronts while Armenians are doing bussiness and getting rich for centuries is priviladge. Anyway I understand you if this Genocide fails your whole life and Character will fall into pieces.

Armenians, Greeks, Jews and other minorities got rich only because the Muslim Turks thought to highly of themselves to be involved in "trivial" things such as accounting and being bankers. The good graces of the Ottoman Empire had nothing to do with the fact that minorities got wealthy - it was the other way around. The Sivas province during the 19th century once had 34 bankers: 31 of them Armenian, two of them Greek, and 1 of them Jewish. Islam itself was the reason why Turks did not advance in those professions until the late 19th century. If Christians were not a liability for the Empire, then there would have been no need for the devshirmeh.
You cannot even get your own country's history right.--MarshallBagramyan 02:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for teaching me my own history and religion :). What I find interesting is you say "The Sivas province during the 19th century once had 34 bankers: 31 of them Armenian". this is true. But I thought according to your sources armenians were discriminated, exploited, slaves though :) ...neurobio 21:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

They were treated as second-class citizens (testimony inadmissable in Muslim courts, not allowed to ride on horses, carry weapons, serve in the military, pay double taxes to support the deliapidated Ottoman economy, etc.) not overtly exploited slaves (unless you readd Devshiermeh). Working as a banker, loaner, or a financier was thought to have been a lowly duty that Turks and Muslims thought to high of themselves of ever entering.--MarshallBagramyan 23:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I will not argue about Muslims not wanting to be crafts man or banker it is totally wrong and is another dogma which is simmilar to saying "there is no democracy and no science in eastern countries because of islam" totaly unable to define social mechanics. You stick to a prototype islam definition that you have learned from Christian sources but Islam is not a single entitiy.

Untill when the Armenians had these somewhat lesser rights? didnt they have their own courts? How many Churches and Schools did they have? And What were the rights of european Jews (the plague bearers) at that time? what may be their class in Europe 6th 7ht...? Judging 1900 with todays norms is misleading. How were black peole and indians treated in US at that time? and above all what were christians of the world were thinking of Muslims at that time? Non believer Mohammedan devils of course. I would advice you to read some missionary diaries to see that The ottoman treatment to its minorities was much more humane than all other empires of that time.neurobio 23:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

There are hundrest of documents ordering killings in German archives despite organised clensing. There is not a single order saying "kill", "destroy" or what ever...

Second: Half of french armenian legion is ottoman Armenians this is clear. Musa dag armenians are ottoman Armenians right? Van armenians are Ottoman armenians right? Sasoon Armenians Are ottoman Armenians right? Karekin Pastirmaciyan is Ottoman armenian (even a member of parliement)right? Andranik(your hero general) is Ottoman armenian right? Bogos says clearly "without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers contributed to the liberation of a portion of the Armenian vilayets, and where, under the command of their leaders, Antranik and Nazerbekoff" these are apart from Armenians who are conscribed from Russia. PLEASE GO AND read this http://ermeni.org/turkce/vkayutyunner.php?tp=ea&lng=eng. A book by armenians telling their story. Many many many armenians confess that at least on person from their family was in Andraniks arm...

And finally thats what TURKEY says it doesnt matter if its ridiculous for you or not. It is the position of Turkey section!!!!

None of my sources have anything to do with Christianity. The millets were headed by religous leaders so if a Christian Armenian got into a dispute with another Christian Armenian, the Christian church in the village would hold the trial, not, the Ottoman Muslim court. The Muslims did not care on what went on in internal Christian or Jewish affairs but if it was a dispute between a Christian and a Muslim, the inferiority status kicked in.
"There are hundres of documents ordering killings in German archives despite organised clensing. There is not a single order saying "kill", "destroy" or what ever..." I don't dispute statistics and methodology but there was no writter direct order by Hitler. Nevertheless, the absence of a document does not necessarily mean a genocide cannot occur (i.e. orders given verbally)
Musa dag armenians are ottoman Armenians right? Van armenians are Ottoman armenians right? Sasoon Armenians Are ottoman Armenians right? But none of those were soldiers fighting in a rebellion or upring. In each instance, the Ottoman military directly provoked Armenians, this is attested by eyewitnesses who all affirm that Turkish authorities provoked Armenians so that they could a pretext to attack or "suppress" the "rebellions". No one Musa Dagh differed slightly in that Armenians knew that they were going to be deported and killed. You're simply giving analogies of self defense like the Warsaw Uprising and "uprising" of the Jewish Bialystok ghettos in 1944.
"And finally thats what TURKEY says it doesnt matter if its ridiculous for you or not. It is the position of Turkey section!!!!" You can include that explanation on the Denial of the Armenian Genocide article instead of needlessly elongating this one. Let's face reality, the entire article chronicles nothing but the truth and its only you and a handful of POV pushers who are unable to accept them as facts. Germans, Austrians, Americans, British, Swedish, Danes, French, Arab, even Kurds all agree to the same thing: this was systematic and its ridiculous and insulting to continue to add information that contradicts historical sources. --MarshallBagramyan 23:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


So you claim 10.000 people were drawned in one afternoon and it is true. make a calculation please at least use the common sense that you have for sure. All true yes... Why so many fabrications? pictures, documents, tales...?

About orders: in terms of law No document = no proof.

yes Jews were witches and bearers of plague, Black people were slaves, Indians were swept clean, 1.5 Algerians were put to death after 1950 (why no Rightfull, truth seeking, humanitarian Armenian talk about it? wasnt that a genocide too?) And poor armenians were not in the army and they were not in the court equal, they did dity jobs like banking and investment, they were in the parliment, they were in embassies so they rebelled for their land. For gods sake the woman did not have so many rights in Europe at that time.

Just a reminder British offically declared the events are not genocide.

Unfortunately some FACTS IN HISTORY (AS DESCRIBED BY FAMOUS ARMENIAN scolar "Verjiné Svazlian")can not be so easly reverted. The ottoman armenians fought ottoman army and aided Russian army with hopes for independence. VAN was monts before deportation orders. They took the city and gave it ro Russians as simple as that. These are in Armenian "genocide" victims testimonies. one of them says “Find your brothers, bring them home, let the members of the family come together again." But how would they reunite as most of them were in Andranik's army?” the other says "my uncle was with Andranik" the other says "andranik made short work of these Turks" endless examples by armenians. Mass desertations by armenians is also there described by armenians them selves. This Genocide is void in terms of LAW as simple as that. No other debate needed. Yet I undrestand you... this article is yours. I began researching this saying "ok lets see what happened" I was ready to accept anything. It doesnt create my personaliy no problem. But unfortunately you have let all your race to be embedded with the history. You have to see that we also heard stories from our elders. You may think we are lying (as usual). But what if what Nietzche said holds true for you "they thought they were living on an island yet what they landed was a sea monsters back" or as Gandi said "hate harms the hater more than the hated." Can you just for one second imagine we were right what will happen to you?the answer will show you how healthy you can think about this issue.neurobio 00:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Cut the crap. No one who comes here to debate is going to change their mind, least of all Turks. However, its much more simpler for you guys to declare everything as wartime propaganda and constantly vandalize the article by writing "F____ Armenian Liars" than to face reality and facts. Recognition by other countries around the world occurs nearly every year. Blaming a phantom enemy (the Diaspora) and continuously threatening to cut diplomatic and economic ties with them reeks of desparity on the part of your country's government. I would have easily dismissed the claims of Genocide had not the entire Armenian population of the region be reduced to 60,000. According to Turkish denialists, the entire world conspired in 1915 to fabricate countless documents, photos, films, and testimonies just to blame the Turks.--MarshallBagramyan 00:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

How unfortune... I am not here to change anybodies mind. I came here to learn your arguements. Also it seems it is easier for you to write cut the crap instead of reading armenian testimonies. whatever... neurobio 00:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

And where do the majority of these Armenian testimonies come from? Turkish sources :) --MarshallBagramyan 00:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

oh boy you did not even check the link.neurobio 01:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

 ;) I didn't need to check the link to know what I was going to find: obscure books supposedly written by Armenians who not only described how they killed Turks, but boasted about it. My favorite one-liner is found on nearly every anti-Genocide page, "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth." Other versions also include ""I killed Azeris by every means possible..." and "I killed Turks by every means possible..."
I know what's in store for those and most of those "Armenian" books do not even exist, or if they do, they misquote, place in incorrect context, or simply fabricate it.
And of course, the latest version of vandalism [11]--MarshallBagramyan 01:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I see... neurobio 01:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Neuro, dont bother to reason, its like trying to bend steel, only a waste of time unless maybe if you are uri geller lutherian 17:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Ya, because its the Armenians who regularly delete an entire article by writing "its a huge lie" who have problems facing reality.--MarshallBagramyan 23:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I want to add here, some or maybe most of the people here claim that it was genocide. I dont think so just because of the reason that it does not fit into the definition. In order for genocide of any kind to occur, the majority group should intend to destroy a national, racial, ethnic etc. group. However, during those times, armenians under the rule of the ottoman empire, helped the russian army (even joined forces). And they themselves have also massacred villages, killed muslims (even baby sksletons are discovered from ruins of muslim villages). Now, every action has a reaction (for the time being, lez assume ottomans killed the armenians). The reaction was harsh, but it was after all a reaction. I mean what do you expect to see in wars? People are killed even at this moment in iraq. ProudTurk

addition to # 8 The position of the international community

I'd like to suggest the following change: On 12th April 2006, some members of the French parliament submitted a bill to create a law that would punish any person denying the existence of the Armenian genocide with up to 5 years of imprisonment and a fine of 45,000 Euros. The proposition was set to be debated on 18th May 2006, but was shelved indefinitely. French Foreign Minister Filippe Douste-Blazy said that adoption of the draft bill 'would be considered as an unfriendly gesture by a vast majority of the Turkish people', leading to 'serious political consequences' weakening France's position in Turkey and the entire region. Zenow 21:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Explanation

I can only stress this enough: it's not only Armenians that say there was a genocide. Most historians support the genocide thesis. I would like to point the anon to WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If most historians and academics hold a certain view, it should be presented in the article as such. Historians that oppose the genocide thesis are a minority. —Khoikhoi 09:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

And I can only stress this that Genocide is a Law term and can only be be valid when agreed upon a verdict by an international court. There is no such think and Armenians do not dare to go to an international court and end this for all.neurobio 14:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I second that, Neuro has a very valid point here, but, for the sake of preserving this blunder, its being ignored! FYI, the president of the Swiss confederation, after returning from a recent trip to Turkey has suggested that the anti racist laws need to be revised because they stifle honest debate (he was referring to the so called armenian genocide). The same arguement was recently put forward by prominent French historians who were arguing that politicians have no competence to decide on matters regarding history. They argued that by "legally" silencing the opposition to the genocide thesis, no proper research on the matter can be conducted. Ofcourse, non of this is mentioned in this highly biased propaganda site. lutherian 17:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Probably because it's unsourced.--Tekleni 17:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Unsourced? Its news ma boy, google it if u want cuz I cant bother lutherian 17:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
well, if you insist: Blocher's comments

Anyways, to get back on topic: historians != some verdict. As Justin McCarthy says, let the historians decide. The answer is that most of them already have. —Khoikhoi 06:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Genocide controversy to possibly swing dutch election

The latest poll shows that Pvda leads CDA by 1 percentage point. But Netherlands' Turkish minority is 365,000 people (total population of netherlands is 16.3 million), out of which 235,000 is eligible to vote. A large section of that has said they will boycott the election. This is bad thing for Pvda because Turks traditionally vote heavily for them and they need the votes in such a tight election. Turks are maybe pvda's most loyal votebase. This will swing the election in favor of CDA and could mean a different government than without the genocide thing.

Albayrak says that she didnt say anything that admitted that the events were genocide. She told a paper today that "I'm not a politician that will trample my identity. I've always defended the same views everywhere with regard to the 'genocide' (allegations) ". It remains to be seen what happens now with Albayrak, who is just 38 years old, a 'rising star' politician who will almost certainly get a ministerial post in a Pvda government. Will such a prominent member who is number 2 on the party hierachy be dropped because of this?

There are also people who say that this genocide thing was brought up by the parties with intent to exclude Turks out of political process but without explicitly saying so. A proxy dressed up to be used to marginalise and humiliate a minority.

Thanks for the edit, that had to be clarified, I personally find it stupid to force someone to hold a view, but party line positions have existed for a long time, here in Canada it even took exagerated proportions on many issues so it would be quite a jump to right away suppose some ill intention such as exclusion. Fad (ix) 18:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Update...There is news that Osman Elmaci (http://www.osmanelmaci.nl/) who was one of the Turks dropped from the election has decided to form a new party for turkish interests because he said turks have lost their trust in the main parties and cannot depend on them anymore. One of the aims will be to fight the genocide allegations ....sorry for my bad english

I've made some minor edits to that section. It's not certain that (a large part of) the Turkish community here will boycott the elections. It's a possibility, and some are definitely considering a boycott, but it would be an exaggeration to say that the entire community has decided to boycott the elections. Aecis I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive. 22:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Elmaci gaf te kennen dat er momenteel totaal GEEN bewijs aanwezig is waardoor het een genocide betreft. Turkije heeft hun archief opengesteld voor de Armeense regering ivm onafhankelijke onderzoek, maar tot op heden is er geen reactie teruggekomen. Tijdens de 1ste wereldoorlog in 1915 zijn er van verschillende kanten slachtoffers gevallen, dus niet alleen aan de Armeense kant maar ook Turkische.

Wat is de clue van deze hele ophef rond de "Armeense genocide" ? Niets wat op enigszins de waarheid berust. Sinds wanneer bepaalt het Nederlandse politiek wanneer iets een "genocide" betreft? Nederland en de Europese Unie zijn wel iets slimmer ingeschat om EERST met 100% proof bewijzen te komen voordat er vanuit de politiek een standpunt wordt ingenomen die NIET strookt met de werkelijkheid. Laat deze kwestie gewoon over aan DE HISTORICI, en we in Nederland ons gewoon bezig houden met de huidige zaken: Onderwijs, economie en gezondheidszorg - Zeynep, Utrecht

Jeremy Salt

Why was he deleted? —Khoikhoi 22:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


answer is simple Just because a Turk added it. it is sourced I have the paper Khoikhoi has the paper.neurobio 22:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is no reason to include the name of a scholar who isen't even remotely notable in his field or hasn't ever produced anything (record-wise personal research that is) considerable of value in the field. It would also be interesting to note that beside his apparent family name, there is nothing excluding him from Ankara's circle as a faculty member of Bilken University political science departement pretended middle eastern specialist (how else could he get published in the so credible Middle Eastern studies (ironic of course)), who Walker in the critic of his book expose his total ignorance of the Armenians, their culture, their language and what we've got here? Ankara sateliting in Australia, quoting Turkish diplomats, not even reaching 10 footnotes and shooting 'Armenian claims', 'Armenian propaganda.' Amazing the quality of the scholars neurobio could come up with. And lets quote an example from one of Walkers review of one of his books: Salt claims that the real number was 265. But Salt's source reference for this figure (no. 32, on p.168) is a disconcertingly vague 'passim', from a printed volume several hundred pages long. This seems to indicate that Salt has not himself seen the actual reference, but only heard about it, maybe through his university, situated in Turkey, where truthful facts about Armenian history are still virtually state secrets. The correct page-reference is '182'. On inspection, the source turns out to relate not to a trustworthy estimate for those killed in the region in 1894, but to the number of slain individuals whose names appeared in the course of the 1895 enquiry into the events. The tchekudge and kelpeten holder on the street crossing mine has written a work on subparticules that got published in some new age pseudophysic 'journal', he supposedly got a PhD when he was in the Philipines, I shall maybe include him on the opponments in articles relating to subatomic particules tsk, tsk... Fad (ix) 02:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


thanks for this excellent example of new/personal researchneurobio 19:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Nothing in the above post is anything new, perhaps maybe for some googlers who have just learned recently the existance of him, and take this as a pretended maintaining of your intellectual integrity that I will not cite names. To my 'pleasure' I assume you're the one adding original research on the special organization section, that's also great, I'll hope you won't feel hurt once I footnote that section with a dozen of sources (with over half, Turkish). Fad (ix) 22:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Good old Fadix. Always the same. Having "pleasure" in the net.neurobio 23:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Germany

When did Germany recognize the events as genocide? I have the original June 15, 2005 Bundestag Resolution here (from armenian-genocide.org), and it says "The German Bundestag honors and commemorates the victims of violence, murder and expulsion among the Armenian people before and during the First World War" [12], it doesn't say that Bundestag recognizes the events as 'genocide', anyone following these events know that it is this designation that is important, Bundestag intentionally left this out.. I am taking out Germany's name and removing the map, please put one up without germany highlighted.. regards.. Baristarim 06:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Instead we should quote the resolution (what I pasted above) and say that the resolution didn't use the word genocide, that would be more factually correct.. Baristarim 08:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I put a new edit about the German resolution.. I just think it is more factually correct considering the importance of formal recognition of the genocidal character.. anyways.. Baristarim 08:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have expanded the statement a bit, asd the resolution does mention the word "genocide" but does not explicitly endorse it. Kusma (討論) 08:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, the current state is good and correct.. No problems with that.. Baristarim 09:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think your edit acuratly depict the situation. See bolded [13]. The resolution claims the annihilation of the Armenians, the massacres were all organized by the government. It deptict the event from the official majority view, this depiction(organized destruction) can not be just limited as saying that it does not endorse it, it also compare the dark memory of the Turks with the one of Germany in regards to the Holocaust. Since this entry is not limited to the term genocide, but has more to do with the actual killings and massacres, I don't see how the German position could be limited to one word, when that resolution use the 'annihilation of the Armenian people in Anatolia which was organized by the government.' It even includes the murders from the special organization, how can you not endore genocide when you believe that a people was annihilated from the order of a government? That's the restrictive uses of the term genocide, much more restrictive than the one from the UN convention. Fad (ix) 16:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Probably the question is the definition of "governments who acknowledge the Armenian Genocide". I agree that the convention says that Germany acknowledges the Armenian Genocide, but if we want to split hairs we can't prove that Germany officially calls the Armenian Genocide a "genocide". Please try to reformulate as you see fit. Kusma (討論) 16:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Decimated

"Nearly 90% of the Turkish IIIrd Army was decimated by Russian forces" the article says. Seeing as "decimated" means killing every tenth perrson, that makes 9% of the Army died, not a great loss.

What's the real figure? Or is it supposed to mean that was 90% of the army destroyed?

MAP TOO SMALL

The map of the locations of the concentraition camps is too small. It must either be enlarged or it should be removed because it is unreadable.--24.15.9.228 15:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You can click on the map to get a larger version. Kusma (討論) 16:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Orhan Pamuk awarded Nobel Prize for Literature

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

wikinews

You are invited to help with these two wikinews articles:

  1. French_parliament_approves_bill_on_Armenian_Genocide_denial
  2. Nobel_Prize_in_Literature_awarded_to_Orhan_Pamuk

Thank you, JeffBurdges 14:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Still trying, eh?? I don't get offended at all, I am over all that :)))))) Funny that u didn't put a similar post about Pamuk on the talk page of the Featured Article Turkish literature.. No agendas there, right?? :)))))) Whatever dude, I am the one that had one of his fellow city-dwellers win a Nobel prize, not u :)))) cheers!!Baristarim 02:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Somehow because you live in the same city as someone who earned a Nobel prize, that reflects well on you? Strange.
No it doesn't actually, but instead of trolling, maybe i would prefer it if u would sit back, try to understand the spirit of what I was trying to say above.. So, how does that reflect on you? :))) I don't live in Istanbul btw, I am from there. Strange. Baristarim 23:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

my thoughts exactly...

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

Orham Pamuk's mother calls him a liar - lol

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

Following unsupported and not historically generally accepted statements have been removed

"The single event that started the chain is most likely the Russian victory over the Ottoman Empire in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877–78. At the end of the war the Russians took control over a large swath of territory inhabited by Armenia but ceded much of it after the Treaty of Berlin was signed. The Russians claimed they were the supporters of Christians within the Ottoman Empire and were militarily superior to the Ottomans. The weakening control of the Ottoman government over its empire in the following 15 years led many Armenians to believe that they could gain independence from it.

Armenian bands of raiders started a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Turkish villages. Their aim was to drive the Turkish villagers out of Armenian areas and establish Armenian strongholds throughout the region. This led to an ethnic conflict that left thousands dead on both sides."

I know of no true scholars of this period in history who ascribe that the origins of the Armenian Genocide have come about soley or primarily due to any Armenian aspirations for independence. The second paragraph runs particularly contrary to accepted historical analysis and is entirely unsupportable. I do agree - and have stated before - that this article is in need of a more clear presentation of the rational for the Armenian Genocide and its interconnectivity to events relating to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of Turkick identity and nationalism where non-Muslim/non-Turks came to be regarded as less then citizens - as potential competitors - who certain elements within the new "Young Turk" movement determined must be eliminated to ensure their hold on the remains of the Empire and to ensure Turkish dominance of (first the Empire as a whole - but upon loss of WWI only in regards to Anatolia proper). The two paragraphs which I removed from the article are not sufficiently accurate or factual - and in fact are misleading - particularly the second paragraph which has been recently added. --THOTH 18:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

no, what you do in fact agree to is that this topic requires further censorship and propaganda, and, unfortunately because its being held hostage by a band of armenians and their sympathizers who have ganged up together to coordinate an effective revert war in order to perpetuate what is in fact nothing more than a hate campaign lutherian 05:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"Hate campaign" lol Any other colorful words you'd like to throw around? Poor turks, always the victims of international conspiracies.--Eupator 15:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
poor armenians They cant dare to go to a international court because they know all their documents are crap instead they cry all around for the last 100 years. Go to a court if it is proven if not stop polluting the web with your primitive hate... neurobio 19:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

These two paragraphs have been added back into the text. They are clearly fallacious and need to be removed. --THOTH 16:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

oh THOTH so outright censorship of the article section is not enough, now you are suggesting censorship of the discussions page? That very constructive indeed lutherian 19:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

How sad, the poor Turks aren't able to get out their message because everyone is intent on suppressing their voices.--MarshallBagramyan 19:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

While I do not doubt that there was a great unjustifided massacre brought against the Armenians, this article reeks of one-sided bias.

How about abit more about the Armenian resistant movements; Dispite how irrationally the Ottomans acted, The Armenians were not the completely innocent pariahs on a whole(as the Jews were in WW2). There was armed resistance.

yeah, lets not forget the waffen SS Armenian legion of WW2 that some members here have also been very busy suppressing lutherian 07:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
And welcome to Godwin's Law... Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 10:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I welcome any sourced and scholarly coverage of relevant "Armenian Resistance Movements" (whatever they might be) as they directly pertain to the facts concerning the Armenian Genocide. However I think that we will find the truth in this case to not be to your liking. No one disputes that certain groups of Armenians developed political conciousness and awareness of their (Armenian) discriminated against and powerless and often abused status within the Ottoman Millet system and the lack of much chance for spontatnious unasked for reform by the Ottoman Sultans. Thus the rise of Armenian political movements that pushed for reform and did so by both internal (to the Sultan) and external apeal for REFORMS. The backlash (initialy from the Sultan Abdul Hamid and the Ottoman [Turkihs/Muslim] elite against Armenian calls for reforms and releif and the resentment of the foreign intervention to impose such on the Empire is what led to the series of massacres throughout the Empire in the late 19th century and early 20th century. Thes in turn led to the radicalization of certain Armenian elements and led to (limited) acts of terrorism by some of these elements. However the vast majority of Armenians - even those who had become politized and to some degree organized still only worked toward political and social reform. And in fact - with the ascendency of the CUP/Young Turk movement and the re-establishment of the constitution (suspended by Sultan Hamid) came cooperation by the major Armenian political parties - particularly the Dashnaks - and cessation of any significant violent activities on the part of Armenian groups. Scholars clearly have proven that it was not any acts commited by Armenians that led to radicallization of the Turkihs elite against Armenians - but a mirad of factors having to do with the break up/disolution of Empire where the Turkish elites came to blame minorities and outside interferrence in Ottoman affairs for the problems of the Empire and began to formulate a plan to rid the remaining territories of said Empire of such minorities where the Armenians (and Greeks of Anatolia) were seen as the most direct (potential future) threats to maintinaing Turkish soveregnty over Anatolia and the Empire proper. These are the themes that must be better addressed. Not grade school level unsubstantiated accusations that blame the actions of evil men and a dominant society twisted by collapse and defeats etc on the primary victims of such actions. Get real. Your accusations against the Armenians are exactly the accusations that Holocaust deniers make against the Jews. (spurious) Claims of sedition and efforts to undermine the dominant society are used by both sets of deniers. Each set of claims are equally unsupportable and would be entirely laughable if not for the seriousness of the subject and that fact for the hatefulness of such views. The only difference is that the Turkish state has evaded comming to terms with the truth as they were never fully defeated as Germany was in WWII and they have used a series of circumstances to ensure that any pressure to admit to past crimes can be sucessfully evaded. Thus Turkish idiots like all of you here are sheltered from the scorn that you properly deserve and you have been able to disrupt and divert the truth and include your ugliness here where it absolutely does not belong. This condition is most shameful and reflects poorly and Wikipedia and on Western society in general that you and your kind are allowed to continue to post your filthf and press your ignorance and ugliness upon us all. --THOTH 14:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

watch your language and remain civil, you are not in a farmhouse lutherian 16:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Practice what you preach, its you who is acting like an immature stable boy. Last time I checked, Turkey did not send 500,000 men to fight and liberate Europe and have 60 of them return back as high-ranking generals, and four of them as Marshals. --MarshallBagramyan 20:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL, and how were they thanked by the allies and fellow christians for their grand deeds? Last time I checked, Armenia was barely out of the middle ages, LOL! As for Turkey, they provided the persecuted with refuge (yet again) from the barbaric orgy of your fellow christians, many of whom are now members of the "supreme" european union. lutherian 20:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Considering the fact that most of them were awarded medals and elevated in rank (Baghramyan, after all was a General who promoted to Marshal to be commander of the Caucasian Front Theater after the war) and their deeds were well known in the world. That's much more than what your beloved Turkey was able to state as its accomplishments, notwithstanding the cozy "Friendship Treaty" it signed with Nazi Germany in 1940.--MarshallBagramyan 23:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
oh sure, and as usual u are an authority on the matter and lets not forget my secret bank account through which I get Turkish government transfers in reward for spending my time arguing with the likes of you! Your remarks suggests to me that you know absolutely nothing about history and this period in particular. So what if those fools got medals? If the sacrifices were so great and all they got in return was a stupid medal, I would be very concerned! lutherian 08:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
...and let's not forget that 1942-1944 tax on all non-Muslims in Turkey, with particular pressure being put on the Greeks, Armenians, and especially Jews... -- Clevelander 23:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow man, what a huge burden compared to the deporatations and wholesale slaughters in France, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, Latvia and many other European countries where they were more than willing and eager to participate in the murder innocent souls. Even in neutral Switzerland things were far from being kosher, but ofcourse, in your mind we can pardon them because they are christian and it was just a moment of folly and nothing else. What a joke! lutherian 08:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

And cut. This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. It's not for debates. Wikipedia is not a chatroom. If you feel so strongly about this issue, I suggest you take this discussion elsewhere. But wikipedia is not the proper forum for it. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 10:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Azeri Genocide by Armenia

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

ASALA

Moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments
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