Talk:Aris Velouchiotis

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[edit] Attention

This is a well written and neutral article, please do not change it and cause disputes. I made only one minor change: The circumstances of his death remain unclear. I have no evidence that he commited suicide. I hope you permit me to state that. Thanks

I agree with your sentiments. In its current form (24th May 2006), this a very balanced article, presenting both views on Velouchiotis's life and actions without degenerating into partisanship. Integrating the Greek Civil War at large into the article, would only serve to turn it into the POV edit war that the afformentioned entry has become. A strong keep for the article in its current form on my part. 85.196.4.183 22:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on older version of the article

This article is clearly a product of the ever-bulging "cult of Aris" by the radical Greek left (similar to the cults of Che Guevara, father-Stalin and chairman-Mao in other regions) and does little to discern fawning hagiography from historical fact about the Greek civil war.

In several excerpts the author supresses historical fact as well as completely turn the truth on its head, in order to support the Greek communist insurgents or slander their opponents who extended from nationalist right-wingers all the way to liberal centrists in the Greek political spectrum.

"[...] the first time that he appeared under the name Aris Velouchiotis. From this time on, this name became legendary in Nazi occupied Greece with multiple victorious guerrilla actions such as the blasting of the Gorgopotamos rail bridge, the Krikelo battle, the Mikro Chorio battle and other lead by him."

Here, as in most other parts, the author of this article withholds the fact that nationalist Greek resistance forces were just as active as their communist opponents in fighting the German Nazi occupators of Greece. The blasting of the Gorgopotamus bridge was not an act singularly "lead by Aris Velouchiotis", as alleged, but a rare common effort in which Napoleon Zervas's Nationalist EDES resistance forces participated, just as well as Velouchiotis's communist forces. Unfortunately, this was to be the last occurence of cooperation between communist and nationalist resistance forces, as the communists proceeded to attack non-communist resistance fighters in several occasions, in order to secure post-war dominance in Greece..

"The post-war regime was exhibiting its brutality, not coincidentally upon the figure perceived as the personalization of the National Resistance."

I don't know where to start with all this. First of all, by the end of German occupation, Velouchiotis came to personify not National Resistance, but the communist powergrab for violent imposition of a Stalinist regime. This happened because the communists

a) Attacked all other non-communist resistance forces in the still-occupated country to ensure they were the only armed forces left in a post-war Greece.

b) Forcefully recruited rural populations or inflicted violence and murdered those who refused

b) Systematically terrorized and slaughtered Greek rural populations that were seen as "negative to the socialist cause". The events at Meligala was once such occurence, as the battle was not between Greek resistance fighters and German collaborators, as the author deceptively alleges, but between Greek communist elements and Nationalist forces, the latter of which had been amassing at the region to avoid an all-out attack by Velouchiotis's group, on account of their anticommunist leanings. After the nationalists lost the battle, the communists proceeded to perpetrate one of the worst slaughters of the civil war, completely decimating the population of the defiant Meligalas, including the non-combatant inhabitants and the families of their opponents.

The story about Velouchiotis's "hanging head" is one of many (diverging) myths, intended to lionize him as a communist hero (in the vain of his posterior Che and others), and villify his democratic opponents as "brutal". What we know for a fact is that Velouchiotis was, indeed, seriously wounded after clashing with Nationalist forces ; whether he was killed during battle (as some claim), or commited suicide after being incapacitated in battle (as others support) is still a matter of some debate. What is not for debate, however, is that, despite his fawning hagiographers, Velouchiotis died not as a loved folk hero, but as a hated perpetrator of communist atrocities, at the expense of all those who refused to comply with his plans for the imposition of stalinism in Greece.

In this article, Greek nationalists and centrists are characterised "fascists" in the vain that all political opponents are characterised and treated as "fascists" by hardline communist parties throughout the world - be they the American Democratic Party, the British Conservatives, or the German Social-Democrats; that is, in no meaningful sense of the word.

The article on Aris Velouchiotis clearly and blatantly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy, so I respectfully request that either changes be made to reflect the historical truth, or at the very least a "disputed" disclaimer is added.

I can only agree with some of the anonymous remarks above. Velouchiotis is one of the most controversial Greeks. Some incidents of his life remain murky (and manny more of the Civil War) --[*]CubicStar 23:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Although I agree with some thinks you pointed out, I can only say that at least the "antartes" (guerillas) fought against the Nazi occupiers and did not betray their country, like some right wing organisations did. People like Papadopoulos (yes, the Junta colonel) and Grivas and many more, collaborated with the Nazis against the mostly left wing RESISTANCE. After the war, those that fought for their country were persecuted and hunted whereas the traitors were placed in high government positions. And this is not communist propaganta (although they are really good at it), this is a historical fact.

Nationalism is one of the main ideas behind Fascism and Nazism (although one can argue that Stalins' USSR was ultra nationalist), so yes Greek Nationalists like the LAOS party are of fascist mentality.

As for communist attrocities, I can only say that there are less attrocities carried out by either Cuba, China, Venezuela etc. than by Bush, Blair and their allies.

I'm not a communist or a socialist but some things need to be made clear.unsigned

So then, you're kowtowing to the Stalinist line to the last "t", but want to claim neutrality for yourself. Whatever. I'm not even going to take the time to dispute this bs. It's only the typical stance of the usual communist greekling, after all (even when reconstructed). "Anyone who's not a communist, is a fascist", slander of the opponents, and distortion of historical facts come easy for the Fidel-worshipping nimrods.193.92.81.97 17:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I will not try and say that the left wing was the only one that was resisting in Greece. What I would like to see in the article is the percentages of right and left wing. Also to be fair on why he went back in the mountains after Varkiza you should tell more of the circumstances of the treaty . That the left wing was the only one getting disarmed etc. The article as is seems one sided. Many historical facts are missing. The word "legitimate government" is, to say the list, disputed due to historical circumstances. The pact of Yalta should also be in this article showing that Greece was one of the grey areas in the division of the world. unsigned

I would think again of using the word "disputed" when later referencing the highly disputed and

overly simplistic Pact of Yalta

I've added a recent book (which I own but haven't read yet). Has anyone read it so as to contribute more? Are there more recent sources? (cubic[*]star | (Talk)) 20:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Suicide

First of all, the comment on Dionisis Charitopoulos's version about a "heroic" suicide is overly sentimental. Although it is portrayed dramatically, the word heroic is not used; it is depicted more as an act of despair rather than a heroic statement. I'm also pretty sure that Aris himself would not have commited suicide as a means of registering his legend, as Charitopoulos seems to suggest, since suicide was considered a demeaning act by high-ranked communists at the time.

On the actual fact of his death, although it cannot be proved as a suicide as no real evidence exists, there are some facts that contribute to the theory. First, none of the opposing soldiers claimed to have actually killed him; this was common during the following civil war, and even the gun that was used would be displayed next to religious icons. However, fear of vengeance could also attribute to this fact. From a psychological point of view, Aris was reported at the time to be in deep sorrow, feeling betrayed and disappointed. He was not talking at all to his comrades for hours, and the last journey that he was making had no apparent purpose, since his plans for a second resistance had already failed. Also, visual material of his decapitated head during the triumph that followed, depicted it on the side, and some witnesses claim that there was a hole on the back from the bullet that he fired in his mouth.

None of these have been confirmed, and very few evidence exist today. I wrote this comment as a suggestion to anyone willing to conduct further research. As of now, I could not yet find a reliable photo of the head; there seems to be a film, but I have yet to find it. It may exist in a private archive.