Talk:Argument from poor design

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• It appears the merger has been completed. Can I removed this tag? Kerowyn 03:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Merge 2 Logical fallacy 3 Watchmaker analogy has examples 4 Arguments against 5 As an argument regarding God 6 Weasel words 7 A version of this argument 8 Examples 9 NPOV tag 10 Accuracy Tag 11 Criticism. 12 original reasearch

[edit] Merge

As suggested by User:duncharris, I have merged the article "poor design" into this one. Except for additional creationist arguments, most of the text was redundant, and except for the blind-spot example, all of the examples were, in my understanding of the argument, not apropos:

• Overproduction of estrogen and testosterone is not a species-wide design feature, as are all examples typically considered to be "bad design."
• Elbow caps, limb regrowth, and infinite life would seem to be part of the "argument from lack of infinitely-perfect design," not the "argument from bad (or poor) design."--Johnstone 01:59, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Isn't that what the prefix "omni-" means? The argument is that an omniscient, omnipotent creator wouldn't make mistakes. ANY mistakes, not just mistakes you think are important. --Llewdor 19:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

And Swift would argue that infinite life is poor design. 213.48.182.7 22:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Logical fallacy

We need to point out that this argument is fallacious, although a humourous repost to argument from design, otherwise it implies that the argument from design is logical, which it isn't. Dunc_Harris|☺ 20:15, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What's not logical about it? Philip J. Rayment 17:18, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Barbara Shack 14:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)Looks like the logical fallacly has been pointed out. It seems to me the article is now neutral.

The argument is logically valid.

If X then Y

~Y

Ergo: ~X

It is a basic Modus tollens. X = All Powerful, Perfect, Creator God. Y = Make Perfect Design.

It seems to be a perfectly sound argument that contradicts the core of the argument from design. If this argument is correct it means that the argument from design is automatically false. Thus, it does not suggest the argument from design is logical, rather it necessitates that it is flawed. Tat 11:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Watchmaker analogy has examples

Watchmaker analogy has some examples of "bad design" better than the ones already here. I'm not sure which would be appropriate, however. --AySz88^-^ 00:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments against

I have removed the following text as an argument against:

Finally, it is a bit incongruous to argue that life is imperfectly designed, when humans create only imperfect works.

I think it is a bit of a non-sequiteur as humans are perfect, whereas the general conception of God is that of a perfect being. There are certainly better arguments against already listed. I make mention of it here because I may have missed the point, and if somebody wants to reinstate it, I would reqeust that they reword it. Conrad Leviston 02:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] As an argument regarding God

Almost half of what is under this header on the article page looks as if it belongs higher up in the article (thus proving poor design does not indicate no designer, rather design by committee :) ). I think this article needs major structural changes, but as I am a little bemused by some of the distinctions and arguments made on this page I am probably not the person to do it. What do others think?

[edit] Weasel words

Suggest that contributors wishing to insert a "Weasel words" template in the article should make a case, since I don't think it belongs. --Vjam 16:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

"Some creationists respond that the argument is non sequitur, because it is comparable to arguing that the poor design of the Ford Pinto means that the Pinto was not designed."

"Some creationists" is an instance of weasel words, because the creationists who are making these claims are not attributed. For all we know, "some creationists" may refer to the next-door neighbors of whoever wrote that into the article. There are other examples throughout the article, you are free to seek them out yourself.—jiy (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jiy. I've removed the reference to "some creationists". I'd agree that the section isn't written in the best NPOV style available. However, on balance, I would be more concerned that adding a weasel words tag here might look like poisoning the well, given the potentially controversial nature of the topic.

I'd suggest that the tag should not be used without a talk item identifying alleged weasel words to they can be removed or otherwise dealt with as appropriate.

Please note that weasel words are not generally considered to have occurred (please don't ask me to cite authors ;)) where a point is uncontroversial, where the belief in question is what is under discussion (likely to be the case in a section entitled "criticism"), or (where quantification is the issue) where the number of opinion- holders is too numerous to quantify. See Wikipedia: Avoid weasel words.

Thanks --Vjam 17:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A version of this argument

I heard a version of this argument a long time ago used to refute benevolent God. It went something like this (IIRC):

1. Omnipotent God could create perfect organisms

2. Organisms, including human, are not perfect (eg. organisms can die, trip, fall ill, fight with each other, etc...)

3. Therefore God is not benevolent.

- G3, 04:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This argument is not valid or sound. An omnipotent god could create imperfect organisms. If you can do anything you can add flaws to something. Premise two is correct. The conclusion is a non sequitur. For example, God could be impotent. This would resolve the issues with the argument. Furthermore, there is no reason to assume that humans were created by this god. The argument would need to be tweaked to actually fit: An omnipotent benevolent creator god (who created us) would create us to be perfect. Organisms, including humans, are not perfect. Therefore, God is not omnipotent, benevolent, or did not create us. -- If sound, the conclusion follows. One could argue against soundness, that the first or second premises don't follow. That a benevolent omnipotent creator god wouldn't create perfect things; I'm not sure what this argument would look like but it would make the argument unsound. Second, somebody could say that organisms are perfect. This would be pretty nutty, but it would also resolve the argument by removing soundness. These resolutions, reject premise 1, reject premise 2 -- If neither premise is rejected then God is either not-omnipotent, not-benevolent, or not-creator. One should also note that this fixed argument is the argument given in the article, these are *all* of the proper resolutions to the given argument. In short, your version is crap. Tat 11:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Examples

Maybe someone should remove the argument about "Junk"-DNA, since it is still much unknown about this feature of life. There are some indications that noncoding DNA really is of most importance to many organisms, especially in regulating mechanisms. And it certainly is a source of new genes by random mutation. Though I think ID-people wont like this reason to remove the argument:)

Arguments are listed because they are made, not because they are valid. And please sign your contributions. -- Jibal 08:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Noncoding != Junk. Junk != Noncoding. [1] Tat 11:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

I think the NPOV tag was added due to use of 'weasel words' and I've made some related edits. At root the problem is a lack of sources which leads to the fallback 'some critics say' wording so I've added a {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} tag instead. As a passing note, I suggest using the NPOV tag rather than just the category since readers of the article deserve to know up front if there is potential bias in the article. Antonrojo 00:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy Tag

Some background on this would be helpful. The tag was added with the comment 'adding "factual accuracy" tag: the 'argument from poor design' is usually a counterargument to an argument FOR God, not itself a general-use argument AGAINST God, per se'. In what context is this 'usually' the case? Antonrojo 02:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

All contexts. The argument from poor design is a specific response to the argument from design (i.e., the teleological argument), and thus a counterargument to an argument for God; that's not the same thing as an "argument against God", and can only be considered one in the loosest possible sense. "Argument from poor design" is no more an "argument against God" than a refutation or criticism of Pascal's wager is an "argument against God"; it might deconstruct certain people's rationales for believing in God, but it's not an attempt to show that "Deities can't exist if life is poorly-designed", as the current article repeatedly claims (a non sequitur, since only certain conceptions of God or gods require that the Creation be optimal: hence "argument from poor design" is only functional as an anti-teleological argument, not a general-usage "there can't be a God" argument). Someone could fully accept the examples of "poorly-designed" entities while still being a theist, just as one could accept the counter-arguments for the ontological argument without renouncing God. -Silence 02:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism.

There is a major problem in the criticism section.

"Greater energy efficiency in plants would result in damaging chemical reactions" is critical to the comment that "Photosynthetic plants that reflect green light, even though the sun's peak output is at this wavelength. A more optimal system of photosynthesis would use the entire solar spectrum, thus resulting in black plants." -- It's not true. There is no reason at all to assume that this would result in damaging chemical reactions, it would result in more sugar. I looked around for a while to see if anybody ever argued this and came up with nothing. This comment seems to be pulled out of somebody's ass. In fact, a number of comments in that little paragraph were just invented, and the rest are stock creationist argument.

If a creationist argument is factually flawed should it still be given, or given and refuted? What about the other criticisms which are non-sequiturs themselves? Is it an honest criticism that the argument makes an assumption, when it states the fact that it assumed these in an assumptions section?

Does an argument which fails to even understand the argument and invents an incorrect conclusion and calls the argument a straw man (the irony!) really qualify as a criticism? It doesn't argue that there is no design, it argues that, if design exists, it's really poor.

And from the other side, we can't delete the entire criticism section because it's all extremely weak, misguided, and factually inaccurate. Can we? Tat 11:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"If a creationist argument is factually flawed should it still be given, or given and refuted?" - It should be given if it is a noteworthy creationist argument from a valid source. It should be refuted if there is a noteworthy refutation of it from a valid source. WP:NOR forbids us from contributing to the debate ourselves, no matter how good our ideas may be; we can only report on the ongoing discussion as a tertiary source. It is our job to provide readers with the facts and let them decide what to believe or not; it is not our job to judge the various arguments on our own, though we can certainly report on noteworthy sources that have done so. -Silence 11:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This would work out well for the arguments which are stock creationist arguments. I could actually dig up cites for those, as well as refutations. The thin air comments would need to just be deleted. Tat 11:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

criticisms should be to the point. There should not be a whole essay on a criticism. If one finds a flaw in critique, then it is either changed, kept, or deleted. An added paragraph is not nessesary. Somerset219 21:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] original reasearch

this article is mostly original research, which is agianst policy, either citations are put into place or in 3 days i will put this page up for deletion -ishmaelblues