Talk:Argentina and England football rivalry

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Contents

[edit] Opening comments

Need quotes, references, external links and so on and so forth, but it's a start for a possible article on this subject. Angmering 22:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The piece is sadly lacking an image — I tried in vain to find a free image of one of the games or even separate ones of England and Argentina teams and / or notable players from these matches, but haven't had any luck. Anyone know of such images? Angmering 13:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Record

A list of the all the matches (friendlies, non-FIFA?, etc) would be good.

[edit] British origins of Argentine Football and more sports

A lot of the Argentine teams have some english in their names (Argentinos Juniors, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Racing Club, Quilmes Athletic Club, Newell's Old Boys, etc) and the even the first organized Argentine team was made of English expats (I think it was Alumni), see Football_in_Argentina. Even more, the first time Argentina beast England (At Wembley, I think) is still remebered and celebrated back home. Maybe we should even mention some instances of the Intercontinental Cup, one with Estudiantes de la Plata playing very rough (I think against Nottingham Forest against Man Utd [1]) and another where Liverpool FC refused to play Boca Juniors (scheduling conflicts, was the official word).

Unfortunately we also imported the hooligan tradition, too. :(

It might be worth mentioning that England has influenced Argentine sports in a lot of ways: For example, Argentina has the only competitive Rugby, Field Hockey and Polo teams on the region. Also, is the South American country with the longest Tennis and Golf traditions. Needless to say, all British-originated sports.

Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I've begun a section with some information on the British founding of football in Argentina. I'm not sure whether we should note the Intercontinental Cup games or not, as this article is supposed to be mainly about the national teams... But it could perhaps be noted somewhere. Angmering 21:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is a big part of the animosity... I shouldn't be left out... Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I suppose so. Might be more in Argentina than in England though, as it's not something that gets talked about very much here, in my experience at least. But definitely add a section on it if you want to. :-) Angmering 21:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I like the pre-1966 stuff, definitely makes it a more comprehensive and interesting article. I can't really add anything on the new club level section, as I don't know anything about it unfortunately. Sorry. Could well add another dimension to the page (which is, after all, about the rivalry - if this extends down to club level then particularly notable matches/fixtures should be included). Sliggy 21:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I just did, let me know what you guys think. Thankfully, it was my team (Boca) involved so I can add a little more. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks good, and it's something I didn't know about so I feel educated! :-D Angmering 21:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with both parts of the above :-), adds more depth and detail on the topic. Sliggy 22:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] First Arg. win, happened in 1964, not 1953

I just went here and it seems that the 1953 match was abandoned due to torrential rain after about 20 minutes. The first victory for Argentina was in 1964, in Brazil. I've cross-referenced the information and as far as I can tell it is good. So I've updated the page and added the web site as a source. Sliggy 22:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Shouldn't the article's title be Argentina and England football rivalry ? No big deal, but I think its more standard to sort them alphabetically Mariano(t/c) 09:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Sounds sensible to me, as redirects will be able to guide those who want to put England first. Anyone object? Sliggy 01:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Nope, sounds sensible. It's my fault for not thinking properly when I created the page. I shall therefore do pennance by moving it and fixing all the links... ;-) Angmering 12:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, we're all humans. I too would've put Argentina first, but not even thinking about the alphabet. Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Handbags

I'm going to preempt anyone complaining about the handbags image. I think it perfectly displays how people in England treat things like football rivalry, with humour. We consistently fail to beat our football rivals so we get back by taking the piss out of them. Jooler 11:43, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

But wasn't the version on The Daily Mirror the version where they're recoiling from a naked woman bending over in front of them, not the handbags one? Angmering 11:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
no. It was the handbags one. It won the What the Paper Say award. See http://www.nmauk.co.uk/nma/do/live/historicpage?MODEL_IN_THE_SESSION=2343 Jooler 12:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting, shows how the memory cheats! :-) Angmering 12:53, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, we don't always lose, but yes the image adds to the article. Is there anything similar from the Argentine perspective? Sliggy 01:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Well there's the World Cup mascot shenanigans as mentioned in the article, but I don't know how we'd go about getting ahold of copies of those images. Angmering 12:12, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
If I may contribute a small suggestion:

I believe the handbag image is more insultingly offensive than exemplary of British humour. In my opinion, it is substracting impartiality to this laudably neutral article, as it is slighting every Argentinean who visits this page. It is my belief the image should be either deleted or taken out until an Argentinean equivalent is found. Please consider this suggestion as nothing but merely a means to improve this overall well accomplished article. Thank you. 200.55.88.166 20:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering there's no connection between the image and the article itself (I mean, written), and the source of the image is not sourced to be British, it might be a good idea. The picture is not even from the match against England... Mariano(t/c) 12:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The image was on the front page of a national daily British newspaper immediately before a prominent game between England and Argentina. It has everything to do with the England/Argentina football rivalry and how the game is viewed in England. The fact that someone thinks that "it is slighting every Argentinean who visits this page" and that there is not Argentinian equivalent - is exactly the point. It shows the different way that the game is viewed. We treat these things with humour. Please see my comment above. Jooler 23:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"The picture is a mock-up: that is, it is not factual. An encyclopedia is a collection of facts. It is not necessary to reproduce an example of ridicule to assert that ridicule takes place.)" - It's a fact that a few days before a sigificant match between England and Argentina that picture was emailed all around the world. I had it in my inbox. It is a fact that a couple of days before (I think) a significant match between Enbgland and Argentina that picture featured on the front page of a British national daily newspaper. It is certainly worth noting that in England humour is used to mock football rivals and indeed our own players. Carricature of heros and villans is a significant part of British culture. See http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=801851 for examples poking fun at Beckham. Jooler 08:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kevin McE - Please discuss here rather than simply reverting. Jooler 22:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Your continual re-posting of the contested image suggests that you pay little heed to discussion here. The image in question was created with the intention of offending and ridiculing; the fact that it was published in a newspaper does not make in noteworthy; it does not serve the neutrality of the article; its inclusion appears gratuitous. You acknowledged at the time opf first posting it that it would be controversial, but you seem reluctant to pay attention to other opinions on the posting. I would challenge you to refer it for arbitration or to a vote.Kevin McE 23:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary. Upon noticing the removal of the image I restored the image and I posted a comment above, to which no-one replied. You did not acknowledge my comment, but just removed the image without discussion. I then posted a second comment here after restoring the image, then you once again removed it. I posted a third comment on this page and only now do you come to discuss the issue. So thank you for finally acknowledging the existance of this page. Two things -firstly Voting is evil your "challenge" to take it to arbitration is confrontational, it's far to early in the process to head down that road, civil discussion is required at this stage. Secondly you are wrong to to say as you did in your edit comment "there is no other editor supporting it bar Jooler" - you will notice that at the time the image was added, a whole year ago bar a few days, and mere days after the creation of the article itself, User:Sliggy said "yes the image adds to the article" and Angmering who is a major contributor to this article did not complain. So for an entire year and virtually the entire lifetime of this article the image has been on the page without protest. Then an anonymous editor posts a complaint and someone else suggests removal - but not for the same reasons - and you remove it and do not respond to discussion until now. I think other opinions are required, until a decision is reached, please leave the page in the same state it has been in for the last year. Jooler 08:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I did complain. I still believe the image has no place in the article. As I said before, there is (currently) no connection between the text of the article and the image (no reference from one to the other). Plus, comments such as a typical example of British humour are way off-topic, and there are no proves the image was created in the UK at all!! How do you know it is not just another example of Nigerian humor? Or even Brazilian? I'm quite sure the newspaper publication was posterior to the email boom.
In short, the 2002 WC match was a poor low-profile match that didn't add much to the rivalry other than a victory to England and a controversial penalty; the image itself does not add anything to it, and the text fails to give a context that would justify it. Mariano(t/c) 11:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please read the text on image's page - "The Image was created by Carl Baldwin in 2002. http://www.b3ta.com/interview/carlbaldwin/ says "Minutes before England played Argentina in the World Cup of 2002, Carl Baldwin sat down at his PC and photoshopped the image above. He e-mailed it round his office, and the rest is history. The picture was sent round the World, and eventually found its way onto the front cover of the Daily Mirror newspaper. More recently the image won News Photograph of the Year at the What the Papers Say Awards.Carl Baldwin has never claimed copyright for the image. Asked "Have you made any money either directly or indirectly from the Argie Handbag picture?" - he replied "I did get a free lunch at the Café Royal for the 'What the Papers Say' awards." - Okay - so we should add some of this to the article. Jooler 13:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I stand by my earlier comment, I think the picture adds a humorous touch to the article. It is obvious that it is a fake, and the caption makes plain that it is false. I can't see why its inclusion is any worse — or better — than the comments about World Cup Willie in pirate regalia or Gauchito with his foot on an English lion (in the section "1966 World Cup"). It records the contemporary media coverage. I agree with Mariano that there could be more context in the article itself, although this risks undue prominence for what is actually just humour. Finally, I note that a factual error (David Beckham "now" being captain) had been missed in all this fuss... Sliggy 14:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's because there was nothing wrong with the text. He was the England captain at the 2002 World Cup game. Whether he is any longer or not isn't really relevant to that section. However, if it makes you any happier I'll put it back in a clearer manner.
Oh, and for what little it's worth I think the picture does have a place in the article. Angmering 18:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You (and Mariano) have sorted out the ambiguity. Thanks! Sliggy 22:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The image in question adds nothing to anybody's knowledge or understanding of the rivalry between two national football teams. It is posted as an illustration of a sense of humour: evidently a sense of humour that appeals to some editors here. I think that makes the image suited to a page they may wish to post on flickr.com or something similar, but not an encyclopedic entry. The fact that some people shared an image with others by e-mail does not make it relevant or noteworthy: the fact that a tabloid newspaper published it does not make it news. The intention of the picture was to ridicule and insult: its reproduction in this pages extends that ridicule and insult to a new audience, and that is not the purpose of wikipedia.Kevin McE 22:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"intention of the picture was to ridicule" - correct, just like [Media:Darwin_ape.jpg]. In this instance it is an example of the way the rivalry is viewed in England both popularly and in the media. BTW I have The DVD series The History of Football - One episode of which opens with Maradona openly mocking and ridiculing Peter Shilton. Jooler 23:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Mocking of a long dead scientist for his opinions is very different from denigration of a group of living sportsmen for their nationality. I fail to see how Maradona's behaviour on a DVD has any bearing on the publication on Wikipedia of a photograph that does not depict him. Are you suggesting that it is acceptable to insult all Argentinians on the basis that one Argentinian insults one Englishman? Kevin McE 00:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beckham - Simeone

I think it's worth pointing out (because you rarely seem to see it mentioned elsewhere, and I don't want it to become watered down in this article), that Beckham's flick against Simeone, was not a retaliation for the foul that had just happned during the run of play, but was a retaliation for the way Simeone leaned on Beckham's back as he got up off the pitch. Beckham had been suffering from a back injury prior to the competition and was in genuine pain. Simeone, who appeared to have been shot by a sniper at the same momement that Beckham's heal landed on him said a year later "Obviously, I was being clever. By letting myself fall, I got the referee to pull out a red card immediately. ... In reality, it wasn't a violent blow, it was just a little kick back with no force behind it, and was probably instinctive." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/288889.stm Jooler 19:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think is that important and it is prejudicial towards Simeone. Beckham did kick him and the fact that he over-acted the pain doesn't take away from Beckham's bad judgment call. Both things are clearly stated in the article and emphasizing it more is not really necessary, IMHO. Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting changing anything that the article currently says. I'm just trying to point out, here, on the talk page, that many places that cite this incident leave out the fact that Simeone pressed down on Beckham's back and that it was this and not the foul that sparked Beckham's "instinctive" (as Simeone himself described it) reaction. So I'm just saying that we should ensure that if someone comes along and changes the article to remove some of the details, or summarise this incident, that the information is retained. Jooler 22:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for misunderstanding you, then. I agree. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 22:48, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. I'd always been under the impression it was Simeone ruffling his hair that really got to Beckham. Still a daft thing to have done, whatever the provocation, mind. Angmering 08:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1966 and all that

Perhaps another thing worth noting on this page. During the 1966 World Cup, there was a strong belief, held by some Ururguayan and Argentinian supporters that their teams were knocked out because of an Anglo-German conspiracy. The W. Germany vs. Uruguay match was refereed by an Englishman (or possibly Scots not sure on this) and the England vs. Argentina match was refereed by a German. There is some information on this here - http://www.learningcurve.gov.uk/snapshots/snapshot28/snapshot28.htm Jooler 19:52, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting and it might well be worth a mention, but personally I think that any more detailed coverage would be more suited to the 1966 FIFA World Cup page. Angmering 20:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English/British

In December User:86.130.179.16 changed all of the references from British to English for whatever reason. Watson Hutton was Scottish, and it's probably likely many of the other early influences may have been Welsh, Irish or Scots. Also there is no real sub-division of British humour caleld English humour. So i've change it back. Jooler 07:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


I changed the references from brit. to eng. because the article is called Argentina and England football rivalry. True, there is no subdivision of British humour called English humour, but if there was it would be a simple copy and paste job as all of the examples of 'British' humour referenced in that article are of English comedians or comedy shows

[edit] Brazil vs. Argentina

Another big rivalry.. Everybody knows the fact that Argentines calls Brazilians as "monkeys" (macaquitos)

There is already another article for this rivalry — Argentina and Brazil football rivalry. In fact it's linked to in the intro here as an example of another major rivalry. Even if I do say so myself, however, the article's not as good as this one. :-) Angmering 22:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "El que no salta es un inglés"

There should be a reference to that popular chant... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.82.64.247 (talk • contribs).

Google translator says "The one that does not jump is an English" - What? Jooler 18:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I have asked one of the Argentinian users who has helped with this page in the past, User:Sebastiankessel, if he can help with this.Angmering 18:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll be happy to. The translation is correct. It is a very popular chant "The one who doesn't jump is an XXX". Basically the expected effect (and the resulting effect) is that everybody at the stadium jumps at the same time to "avoid being called an XXX". The chant started to be sung after the Falklands War of 1982 and it became a traditional chant in every Argentina match, regardless of who are they playing against. "El que no salta es de Brasil" (The one not jumping is a Brazilian).
Obviously, since most Argentine stadiums still have a lot of "standing room" bleachers, it's not that hard for people to just start jumping, although seating spectators almost always join the crowd.
It is quite a sight to see 60000 people jumping at the same time, I'll tell you that.
I'll see if I can compose a little paragraph to that effect.
Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Sebastian! Angmering 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey no prob, that paragraph was surely missing! :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 15:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed part of that para because it is no more intended for English ears than the playground taunt (and apologies for quoting a homophobic example, but it is the most well known I can think of) "last one on the field is a queer" is intended as a way for homosexually oriented youth to reveal themselves. Any insulting adjective could have been substituted for "inglés" (as you illustrate yourself above): the point is that "inglés" is being used here as a perjorative. I'm afraid that your defence for reverting that it will be heard on TV seems to me to be a red herring: is there much Argentinian domestic football shown on UK television? Do the crowd at an Argentinian league fixture care whether it is being shown in the UK? (The other part that I deleted acknowledged itself to be no more than a rumour: now that it is substantiated, it can properly stay) Kevin McE 22:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gibraltar español, Malvinas argentinas

Pues eso, y los ingleses que se jodan, por invasores, imperialistas, fascistas y racistas.--84.120.10.177 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Utilice por favor el inglés en la versión inglesa de Wikipedia. Gracias. (Translation = Please use English on the English version of Wikipedia. Thank you) Alias Flood 23:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I suspect I get the gist of it... Angmering 07:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV edits reverted by me

  • "for an obvious foul by Alan Shearer on the Argentine goalkeeper" - I remember watching the match and as far as I remember everybody was initially mystified , so I dunno about "obvious" - a lot of comment was made afterwards about how no such foul would have been given in the Premiership.
  • "Such criticism is common in England, whose fans and press are renowned for accusing teams who defeat them of cheating. " - such citicism is common everywhere AFAIK. Look above about how the Argentines believe that England and Germany conspired against them in 1966. Jooler 17:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's common knowledge in the football world that the English media and fans are insane with the way that they always say their opponents 'cheated' when the English lose. Often they blame the ref as well. In some cases, such as Barcelona-Chelsea in 04-05, the commentators spend the entire match complaining, which leads to disgruntled Englishmen sending death threats to the match officials. And in saying "no foul would have been given in the Premiership" - that isn't relevant, as the officiating in England is completely different from the actual rules of the game - completely different from the way the game is officiated in the rest of the world. Peoplesunionpro 03:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1998 World Cup

The part of the third paragraph of the 1998 World Cup section that refers to the Sol Campbell goal is from a completely different game; the England vs Portugal EURO 2004 Quarter Final. --82.34.235.89 18:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)KLC

Nope, it really has happened to Campbell twice, I'm afraid. Angmering 18:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I'd forgotten about that. --82.34.235.89 23:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)KLC


[edit] Neutrality of the article

I believe this article is obviously biased against Argentina. This page should be changed to a more neutral point of view, not one unsubtely supporting the English.

Do feel free to make any changes you believe will help create a more neutral point of view in the article. Alternatively, you could say here which sections you feel need attention and other editors can try and change them if they agree with you. Angmering 13:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is useless. There cannot be such thing as England-Argentina rivalry. Argentina is a football team, England is bunch of racists, idiots, hooligans, a bastard nation that try to achive its aim through football. They are murderers, should not be allowed to take participate international events. Every team all over the world is enemy of England, according to them. Example, France, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India, Kenya, everyone... Unfortunately, nowadays, football is used for commercial reasons. and England has the money, so everyone need England, for commercial reasons. Because English funs drink more then anyone else, those animals spent money more then anyone else. That's it. we need England for this reason.

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