Talk:Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction

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You have new messages (last change).

Renamed the section on war to just war, since some of them do not feature nuclear war, but retained the link (akira is non nuclear: world war three being fought by powerful psychcs and blamed on nuclear weapons, and mad max is due to social decline: should be moved) also moved Tank Girl: in the movie it was a comet that boiled the earth seas off.

Wrong on Akira and Mad Max. The Akira's awakening starts WW3, which the two superpowers in 1988 believe is a nuclear strike and respond with nuclear weapons (there's even an storyboarded scene for the film that shows WW3 in detail, with leaders being waken in the middle of the night, to nuclear weapons being launched from submarines and bombers, and chemical and conventional warfare). Outside of Akira and the other 3 number children, there isn't another psychic until Tetsuo and Kei. The oil crisis in Mad Max descends into WW3. In fact, the "great fire" is mentioned in Beyond Thunderdome by the oasis children is a nuclear explosion.
Actually, in The Road Warrior(second film in the Mad Max trillogy) it specifically states that the major downfall was due to the roving gangs of thugs taking advantage of the situation, not due to either the nuclear or biological weaponry employed in the war.Gizzakk 18:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
However, I kinda accept the change. I would rather have World War III or other wars. The big problem is that there's a lot of material that uses "the final war" and some of it doesn't cover WW3 in the traditional sense.--YoungFreud 18:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the change is appropriate, but I too think something longer than just 'War' would be better - but I cannot think of a better solution that holds up under scrutiny i.e. WW3, Final Wars, Apocalyptic War...Robovski 01:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

as far as a category for Zardoz, how about 'societal bifurcation', in which the society splits, a bit like the HGWells Time Machine, Eloi and Morlocks etc I'm sure there must be other examples of this in SF. fojxl 01:25 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

As I understand it, the categories relate to the type of apocalypse that the story is post-. So "societal bifurcation" isn't really helpful unless it was somehow the societal bifurcation that brought about the collapse of civilisation. Paul A 02:16 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

Does The Day After fit here?-- Error


Removed this:

IIRC correctly, the basic premise is the aftermath of an alien visitation of some sort, that left behind a region filled with incredibly dangerous, utterly incopmprehensible phenomena, which treasure seekers explore hoping to get back alive with something valuable: not exactly a post-apocalypse -- Malcolm Farmer 11:43, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm wondering: after looking at the Vampire Hunter D entry, I recall there's a lot of Japanese pop culture, especially anime and manga, that deals with apocalyptic fiction, almost too many to count. The ones I can name of the top of my head are Akira, Fist of the North Star, Evangelion, Grey, Appleseed, Ghost In The Shell, Battle Angel Alita/Gunnm, and that's already getting to be a long list.

I've avoided putting them since there's more than this and plenty that make references to total devastation (For example, Macross' second half, where Misa and Hikaru tour a battle-scarred Earth that looks very similar to Hiroshima after the bomb). I only included Dragon Head and Last Days of Planet Earth as they're live action films. I'm wondering how to continue, just add more anime titles until it chokes the page, keep it to famous and direct (i.e. definite mentions of WW3, etc. in the story) examples, or leave them out. I'd rather not excise them completely, as apocalyptic literature and imagery is such a common occurance in Japanese manga, anime and cinema.

Also, I think DADES's example should be limited to WW3, and not Pandemic. The plague that kills the owls (amongst other creatures) mentioned in the book is part of WW3, perhaps as a biological weapons hazarded by both sides, in addition to the Synthetic Freedom Fighters and nuclear weapons. Also, the war is not mentioned in Blade Runner, just the source material, it seems. --YoungFreud 04:15, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since GitS and Gunnm were mentioned, would anyone consider the (post-)apocalyptic genre a subgenre of cyberpunk? These two seem cyberpunk to me, and I didn't recognize GitS as post-apocalyptic. I also encountered someone referring to Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World as cyberpunk, which I think is too far reaching. -- Claw 21:34, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic fiction a subgenre of cyberpunk. I think they share some elements, but in and of itself, post-apocalyptic fiction is a seperate entity from cyberpunk. Many cyberpunk genre stories use post-apocalyptic settings, but many post-apocalyptic stories don't use cyberpunk genre elements.
I mentioned GITS, since, IIRC, the manga and the GITS:SAC both take place after World War III (I believe mentioned by name in the book, and just mentioned as "the war" in the SAC episode "Jungle Cruise"), although WWIII is not as final as everyone thought it would turn out (I think the only real evidence of major damage is balkanization of many countries, excluding Japan, Britian, and perhaps the US, and the formation of new ones like the Gavel Republic and Genova), so I wouldn't really include that as a post-apocalyptic title, now that you mention it. Appleseed, Shirow's other famous story, OTOH, concerns efforts by a biological androids' and their human masters/servants' attempt to bring order to the world following a series of devastating world wars, so it would probably should be included. Gunnm is very much both post-apocalyptic, in that it has the visual and thematic references, and cyberpunk. However, I would probably have to rewrite a section, "After the fall of space civilization", to include "or neglect from space civilization", to take in account the Last Order chapter, which has a thriving transhumanity from Earth orbit, all the way out to Jupiter but has all but forgotten the lives of the inhabitants on Earth's surface, save an elite few. --YoungFreud 01:34, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Science Fiction?

Can we change the article focus from "science fiction" to just "fiction"? There are works here that are not "science fiction", and there are a lot of fictional works that deal with the end of Civilization. Currently a lot of articles link to End of the world and they need disambiguation, this article seems the appropriate place to link in to on any subject dealing with fictional ends of the world (civilization), could be covered in this article, not just science fiction. Thoughts? Stbalbach 03:37, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Can't most works of apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic fiction be considered a form of science fiction? or at least soft science fiction?
Even many 'fantasy' novels that fall into the post-apocalyptic category, such as the Wheel of Time when relating to past events, mention science fiction veriety flying cars and weapons, as well as other technology.
One series I have read (Gene Wolfe's "The Book of the New Sun" progresses. The first book is a 'fantasy' novel. As the post-apocalyptic nature of the world is further revieled, the series becomes 'science fantasy' and finally 'science fiction'.
Those cases in which the world (or civilization) is harmed by magical, or other non-science fiction circumstances are rare, from what I've seen. The closest thing I can think of, are The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but that is another world that is destroyed, not Earth or her people.
Also; apocalypse does occur in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." But (from what I recall) it is mentioned sparingly. And (notwithstanding the plot point in which it occurs) effects the plot little. Should it truly be considered a work of apocalyptic science fiction? Depherios 11:57, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is this link appropriate?

There is a link to an off-site page here, promoting the book "Full Circle" by an author named Boyle. The link goes to an URL also by a person whose last name is Boyle, apparently a relative (or perhaps the same as the author). This seems to go against the rules about promoting oneself. The book is published by controversial press PublishAmerica as well. I also understand from the website project that pages on geocities.com, etc. are being considered for removal. Would it be instead appropriate if there were a Wiki article, written by a third party, regarding the book and its plot? 67.10.131.229 5 July 2005 21:34 (UTC)

Yeah, it's bugged me for the longest time. I think that if the book or movie or story has no page, it should simply be left italicized. I also believe that there should be no outside links in an article, unless it's footnotes, source, or external links. I do think you're right in that it's a self-promotion, especially in light of the vanity press angle that I was unaware about. There was another link like that a few weeks ago, It's Inevitable or something like that, and it was removed recently. I would, in the best spirit of Wikipedia and as a compromise, turn the link into an italicized title or remove it. --YoungFreud 5 July 2005 23:09 (UTC)

[edit] Future directions for this page

I would like to discuss how this page can be improved on. One of the items I'm suggesting is an inclusion of general elements of apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic science fiction. Basically, it's themes, the politics behind such themes, allegories, cliches, etc.. The inclusion of this list would also act as a criteria for the various lists, as there has been some discussion on whether or not some of the titles mentioned should be listed in this article. I would also like to expand the list titles in some way. The biggest of these would be the World War 3 title heading. I'd like to expand this to "World War 3 and other wars". I would really like to include titles like Appleseed, but also include 1939 MGM animated short Peace To Earth in which all humanity is extinguished in a then-future World War 2.

I was kinda glad somebody beat me to the Biblical Apocalypse, which has now been renamed Religious Apocalypse and may further be renamed to Religious and Paranormal Apocalypse, if necessary.--YoungFreud 17:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Should 28 Days Later be listed? I was under the impression, off the movie's end, that the Rage epidemic was contained. In fact, the article has a detailed analysis of this. Any suggestion? --YoungFreud 04:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I feel this page is getting a bit too long. The obvious way to go is to move all of the Examples section to a new article such as List of Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic science fiction works. This would then mean this article could be more focussed on analysis, history of the genre (notably lacking) and criticism. Any comments?--NHSavage 22:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with NHSavage. --nihon 23:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge in Ruined Earth and rename article proposal

I agree this should be merged in. At the same time the article should be renamed to somthing more inclusive besides just science fiction. End of the World (fiction) is one idea, since it follows the End of the World series of articles which allready exist. Comments? Stbalbach 14:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I've gone ahead an merged what new information the Ruined earth article had. Most of it simply duplicated, IMO.
I don't think End of the World typically applies, although end of human civilization usually does in many of these stories. I do think the redirect is better. --YoungFreud 21:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


The link to "The Visitors" novel by Simak actually links to an ABBA album...needs to be fixed.

[edit] Amerika

I guess that civilization is not destroyed enough in Amerika (TV miniseries) to warrant an inclusion. --Error 00:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albert Pyun movies

Albert Pyun, director of Cyborg, has also made some other post-apocalyptic movies such as Omega Doom that may be worth mentioning in the article. Omega Doom is the only one of his movies I have seen so far, and it probably would fall either under the Cybernetic Revolt or World War III categories. --HunterZ 09:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed Dune (novel), since it's not an apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic story. Arrakis has always been a crappy place, unless I misunderstand what I've read of the series...

[edit] Gregory Benford

In the To Be Catagorized section, there is this entry: Aftermath by Gregory Benford. I'm not familiar with such a work, and I can't seem to google anything up with his name on it that is titles "Aftermath". I am familaiar with an old RPG set called Aftermath - I still have the books from the core boxed set.


[edit] A few comments

28 Days Later isn't exactly about the end of the world since it's clear in the end that only the UK is affected. That can perhaps be stated in a note afterwards or something?

Also, I find it strange that the new version of Dawn of the Dead is under Pandemic while Romero's original and his other movies are under "The decline and fall of the human race". I see the zombie infection as a pandemic in all of those movies and not an effect of social events or something.

Well, the Romero films aren't even sure if their mode of zombie is from cosmic radiation or some sort of virus. Since many of the corpses in the Romero films, aside from those torn apart, tend to reanimate without being bitten by zombies (the best examples would be in LOTD, with the hanging man reanimating and Blades, who was killed at the end of the original Dawn). The zombies in the new Dawn are definitely from a pandemic, as there are cases where people are killed uninfected humans, either accidentally or on purpose, and they do not reanimate.
I believe I added the 1978 Dawn as "Decline" as it is more of a decline of the human race, the reason being was that is that human society is on the cusp of the collapse at the beginning of the film and begins to gradually breakdown, as opposed to the pandemic striking overnight in the remake.
However, you are correct about 28 Days Later. I've mentioned this before. I've been thinking of moving this to "Various" or "To Be Catagorized". While it lacks the world-ending scope of many of the entries, I will not deny that it has apocalyptic elements.--YoungFreud 02:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see your point about the Romero films. I don't think "28 days later" needs to be moved though, since there are other works in the list who seem to concentrate on the downfall of a specific geographical area. El-topo 21:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apocalyptic vs. post-apocalyptic

It seems to me that we sould probably divide these two topics, it would resolve questions of what is viable on the list. technically, apocalyptic fiction is any fiction wherein the world and/or civilization is close to destruction, post-apocalyptic concerns what happens thereafter. (even though, ironically, for it to be a true apocalypse, there would have to be no one left at all; therefore post-apocalyptic is really not even a valid genre) at least this is my impression. thoughts? Gizzakk 18:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think any definition of apocalypse mandates the elimination of every single human being. Anyway, I think it makes sense to lump them together, what unites them is that the destruction of human civilization, whether ongoing or in the past, is a core theme. Christopher Parham (talk) 09:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Would anyone oppose moving this to Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction (ie. remove the "science")? It's pretty clear that a large number of these articles are not science fiction, at least how it's described on Wikipedia -- for instance The Day After. Christopher Parham (talk) 09:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] source?

"Due to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in its modern past, Japanese popular culture is rife with apocalyptic themes. Much of Japan's manga and anime is loaded with apocalyptic imagery." Anybody cite source?

Funny you should mention this because I've been meaning to expand it. The source actually comes from Little Boy by Takashi Murakami. I really want to expand the paragraph, because the chapter that has a discussion between Gainax founder Toshio Okada and Kaichiro Morikawa about how Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and the subsequent American occupation resulted in a Japan basically reduced to a child-like status in the geopolitical sense, and caused the Japanese mass consciousness to transform things that were difficult to deal with into things that were cute, so they could be easier to cope with.
This in turn lead to the apocalyptic worldview of the otaku subculture, such as the radiation bombardment in Yamato and the devastation shown in Gundam and Macross. Later on, Aum Shinrikyo, who recruited from the ranks of otaku by interweaving their philosophy with the imagery shown in manga and anime, would later use sarin gas in an attempt to start their apocalypse. This would result in a paradigm shift away from the overtly apocalyptic imagery of previous anime to moé, a supercute and highly fetishized form that dominates the otaku subculture today.--YoungFreud 14:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cowboy Bebop?

The anime Cowboy Bebop is about a team of bounty hunters in the future. In the year that the anime is set in, Mars and other planets have been colonized but Earth is desolate and most of it's residents have left it due to the Gate Accident many years earlier, causing a meteorite falls every two days, changing the landscape. Couldn't this therefore classify under post-apocalyptic? --Isequals 01:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Should already be there. If it not, it was once listed under Astronomic impact (meteorites). In fact, looking over the history, it was removed somewhere between June 13, 2005 and October 13th, 2005. --YoungFreud 01:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I'd say that the series fits, in the sense that the setting is far post-apoc, seeing as several episodes are set on the Earth and the backstory is mentioned several times, but not during the event or near post event. Robovski 02:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titles added

Post apocalypse (WW III) literature:

  • Magic City (Nelson S. Bond) a novella (?) set in post-atomic war New York City.
  • Star Man's Son (Andre Norton)
  • Dear Devil (Eric Frank Russell)

I'll try to think of some others; there are "scads" (many).

Also, if "After the fall of space-based civilization" is a category, the floodgates are wide-open. Just for a start, there's Against the Fall of Night and The City and the Stars (both by Arthur C. Clarke); The Mote in God's Eye (Niven & Pournelle); The Dragon Masters (Jack Vance) (and arguably his The Last Castle); and Chad Oliver's poignant Transfusion.

OTOH, maybe we should just pick a few representative samples for each category, rather than trying to make up an exhaustive list. --ChrisWinter 21:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm really thinking of making a and off-shooting most of the list there. I'd also like to merge the cosy catastrophe article, much like the Ruined Earth article was. Much of that article could be posted in it's own section on the page or in the criticism section. BTW, I'm wondering if the Dying Earth subgenre might need to be moved here as well.--YoungFreud 05:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halo

This may just be me, but I do not see how halo is post-apocalyptic

Caught. I've gone ahead and corrected the entry. We've had it added occasionally because of competition with Half-Life 2, which is definitely an example of post-apocalyptic fiction, as it's set 10 years after an alien occupation.--YoungFreud 23:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
However, with the events of Halo 3, and the hints of a galaxy-wide apocalypse, the Halo franchise might actually be post-apocalyptic as well as apocalyptic. -- Nils Jeppe 14:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torg

I'd say TORG should go into the religious / supernatural category, as the High Lords use supernatural forces to invade Earth (their powers derive from the Darkness Devices, which were created by the Nameless One to fight creation and possibility). -- Nils Jeppe 14:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cell

I think Stephen King's novel Cell should be in this list (the story focuses on a sort of virus transmitter by cell phone signals, and anyone who uses a cell phone becomes insane and cannibalistic (zombie-ish, though these people are still alive, as in the movie 28 Days Later)). I'm not sure what category to put this novel under. --RazorICE 10:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is a List

This article as it is should be renamed "List of Apocalyptic and Post Apocalyptic Fiction", and leave room for an article actually describing the genre, its origins, etc.--SidiLemine 13:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is an article at the top... but the list has certainly taken over since my edits last year. I would agree with separating the list into its own topic and leaving the article text here. Dan 05:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll second the motion that the ever burgeoning list be split from the article. I'm probably more of a recent wikipedian than most here - How much of a consensus do we need before making the split? -- Rydra Wong 01:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll support the move of the list to a seperate page - so long as the very useful list is kept and linked from the main article. Robovski 02:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of doomsday scenarios

Could use votes to save this article, thanks MapleTree 22:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

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