Talk:ANZAC Day

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[edit] ANZAC acronym and capitalisation

Hi, i am living in Turkey and i am interested in War History. I have attended the past 6 Dawn Services at Gallipoli. I have added a picture today and i fixed the grey lines between the articles. About the acronym - Its official to capitalize the word ANZAC. user:olympos2


Some thoughts - personally think there should be a consistency of capitalisation - ANZAC is an acronym and should be capitalised. - Thoughts, anyone? - User:MMGB

I assumed that it ought to be capitalised, because of the acronym status - it's not a complete word but an abbreviation. But I see that somebody disagreed - I just spent two hours writing an article that I thought was needed, when a non-capitalised version apparantly existed already :( (whimper) The only aspect I was uncertain of was whether Day should have a capital or not... KJ

Karen - take that as your "official" welcome to the 'pedia :) I think that's happened to all of us at one point or another. Inconsistency abounds here, sadly. It's always a good idea to run a search before you tackle a new topic - just because it appears in red doesn't mean it doesn't exist. However on the bright side - what you have added is extremely valuable, and was absent from the original. The final article will be all the better as a result. Regards - User:MMGB

I always understood that the acronym 'Anzac' had long ago ceased to be capitalised in ordinary usage (like 'laser' or 'scuba', the two examples in Acronym), and that ANZAC was generally used to refer to older usage. I'll see if I can't find some Australian government or military style guide on this. -- Perey 18:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Australian War Memorial seems to be one of the few sites consistent in any degree—using 'ANZAC' for all references to the day and the soldiers. But 'Anzac' seems to be near-universal for such things as geographical names (e.g. Anzac Cove). -- Perey 18:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Bean uses "ANZAC" for the army corps and "Anzac" for everything else ("Anzac sector", "Anzac Cove", "Anzac Beach", "Anzac Gully", etc.) Also, it's HMAS Anzac, not "HMAS ANZAC". I don't know why it is capitalised in "ANZAC Day" but if the AWM use it, that's fine with me. Geoff/Gsl 22:12, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Don't you think that "The Vietnam War in the 1970s, with conscription and other unpleasantnesses" is a bit biast and thus not adhere to Wikipedia's nuetral point of view?

[edit] Death toll

Reading the article, one might be forgiven for thinking that only Anzacs died at Gallipoli. (On the other hand, most Australians do think that.)

In absolute terms, more Brits than Australians died, and more Turks than Brits died.

Relative to population, the Australian and NZ death toll was a lot higher.

From Battle of Gallipoli

Gallipoli casualties(Died Wounded Total)

Australia 8,709 19,441 28,150 New Zealand 2,701 4,852 7,553 Britain 21,255 52,230 73,485 France (estimated) 10,000 17,000 27,000 India 1,358 3,421 4,779 Newfoundland 49 93 142 Total Allies 44,072 97,037 141,109

Ottoman Empire 86,692 164,617 251,309

Total Dead and Wounded - nearly half a million men! And for what?! Nothing!

Over WWI in total, NZ had the highest casualty rate as percentage of population of any participant country.Aistralia had the highest casualty rate as a percentage of its military establishment. dramatic 17:06, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
This isn't true. Depending on whether you count civilian deaths and just those injured, France, Austria-Hungary, Germany, Romania, Italy and Bulgaria all had higher rates per population. Evil Monkey - Hello 04:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
NZ had the higest out of the Commonwealth I think Brian | (Talk) 05:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kokoda Trail

Is it worth mentioning that there is an increasing push to refocus commemerations on the Kokoda Trail?

Reasons for:

1. Gallipoli was someone else's war, largely irrelevant to Australia, and we lost.

2. Kokoda was very much our war, very important to Australia, and we won.

On this standard lefty-pacifist mythology that "Gallipoli was all for nothing and was someone else's war" I recommend Gerard Henderson's comment here. In fact the Gallipoli campaign was strategically a brilliant idea, unfortunately not followed through with proper resources or planning. Both my grandfathers were patriotic Australians, both fought in World War I (one of them at Gallipoli), and both maintained to their dying day that it was a war well worth fighting and winning. Adam 07:55, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Yup. Seen that article.

The idea to attack at Gallipoli was sound (brilliant is probably stretching the adjective). But for good and bad reasons the attack failed, and it was obvious that it had failed, and should have been aborted a long time before it was. Even Gerard Henderson says it was 'doomed' and 'could never succeed'.

As was, 150,000 allied casualties, most of whom died long after it was obvious that the attack had failed.

Like Iraq, participating in WW1 might have had some value as an insurance payment to a major power, (maybe) but it was never vital to Australia in the way that Kokoda was.

I think you are missing the point. The Gallipoli landings are important because they were the first time Australians fought together as fellow nationals under their own flag. That's the unique thing about it.

The article ought to mention this fact actually.

Please sign your contributions. Adam 08:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

To say please would kill you?  ;-)

Right or wrong, 'lefty pacifist mythology' or not, if this is a significant body of opinion then it merits mention. I'm not convinced it is, though. -- Perey 16:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

The view that Gallipoli achieved nothing is widespread, probably dominant. The standard belief is that the Australian solders were brilliant but that victory was denied us by the incompetence of the British officers. (We sometimes remember the Kiwis, though not this year. We almost never acknowledge that there were more British troops than Australians.)

Holding that view isn't incompatible with seeing Gallipoli as somehow more special than any other Australian battle, which is almost certainly the predominant view - we honour their sacrifice, not their achievements.

I cannot put a size to it, but there is a significant, probably lefty, possibly pacifist, body of opinion that belives that we should accord at least equal honour to those who fought successfuly defending Australia. --BenA 08:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

PS. A google search for "Gallipoli Kokoda" returns 6130 hits, many of them on this theme. See for yourself

[edit] International Anzac conferences

I feel the recent text added by the user from IP 85.104.142.221 to the article on ANZAC Day is not strictly relevant to the article itself. I suggested a separate article on the subject of the conferences with a link on the ANZAC day page to see also. However, there are issues about linkspam and articles on future events. Any such article will be reviewed as to whether the content is encyclopaedic and appropriate for Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not for further info - particularly:

  • Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine - "While you are free to write about yourself or projects you have a strong personal involvement in, remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other."
  • Wikipedia is not a free host or webspace provider
  • All articles about future events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred. In particular: Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place.

When I went to the link provided at www.knowledgesocieties.org I got an error message. I have judged the material at present to not be worthy of a separate article and certianly not appropriate for this article.--A Y Arktos 22:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ANZAC Day in Australia

This is all my POV, but is it worth making a point of the recent "latching on" of commercial interest to ANZAC day and it being purported in the press as more of a national day than Australia day? Because in my opinion it is not. I am a second generation Australian (3 British grandparents who fought in World War 2) and feel zero affinity to ANZAC day - I know more people who should be celebrating VE day than ANZAC by virtue of ancestry. I honestly think it is a shame that instituations such as the AFL play The Last Post on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday etc before games on the weekend of ANZAC day, not to mention the Collingwood/Essendon thing. ANZAC day, sadly in my opinion, has become a festival. Should more be made of this without the article becoming too weaselly? Ian peters 11:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

How would you approach that POV in the article and is it a verifiable and notable POV? I don't see how popularity should necessarily imply commercialim or festivity -- my POV is that people who make those accusations about Anzac Day don't understand its popularity and so have to concoct these ideas to explain it to themselves. Though I do agree that some sickening examples of commercial exploitation exist, for example McDonalds Anzac "Cookies" <spew> --Russell E 11:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying you can, but then again, line such as "... many Australians have now come to regard ANZAC Day as the true national day ... the national identity of Australia was largely forged during World War 1 ... the most iconic event in the war for most Australians was the landing at Gallipoli." strike me as quite POV, and somewhat weaselly. In discussing the commercial exploitation, I would cite the AFL promoting their ANZAC round with heavy ANZAC emphasis such as The Last Post played before tonight's game (21st April). The main point is I don't think enough migrant Australians (1st generation and 2nd generation such as me) identify with ANZAC day for the above comments to remain in the article. I fear ANZAC day is becoming as untouchable as the issue of Jewish influence in the US. Thus I would propose replacing the 2nd paragraph with something like this (a little devils advocate here):
ANZAC Day has grown in recognition in recent years, and is regarded by some Australians as more important than Australia Day. This is somewhat unusual, as the day commemorates Australia's worst war catstrophe, and more generally the service of Australians in wars past. However many Australians have no Australian ancestors who have been to war for Australia, and therefore lack anything more than an altruistic reason for commemorating the loss and sacrifice of others unknown to them. In recent years, the commemoration at Galipoli in Turkey has grown in popularity, particularly for young Australians and sporting teams heading to Europe. The threat of a terrorist attack at the Gallipoli site in 2004 did not deter some 15,000 Australians from attending the event. Ian peters 12:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd support such a rewording. I'm surprised that the article contains no reference to the origins of the parade in the protests of WWI vets about their treatment on returning to Australia. — JEREMY 10:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Do you think it's worth mentioning in that paragraph how ANZAC Day is not only a commemoration for our lost ANZACs but also as a day for recognising our currently serving troops? I think there has always been that underlying message on ANZAC Day. But others may see it differently. (Prof. Alex 00:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC))
It seems to have become a "Current Servicepeople's Day", certainly. I think the History section of the article should address this shift in emphasis, as it's an important aspect of what might seen as the politicisation of the event. — JEREMY 03:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

After last years commemorations at Anzac Cove were a bit of a party, this years one was much more sombre. They banned alcohol and there wasn't a concert. I know that in NZ ANZAC Day is not considered any form of heroic celebration like the descriptions I've read above (about Australia). With the change in attitude at the Anzac Cove commemorations is the last sentence under the Australian heading any longer correct? If it is, I do think it should be referenced, surely if the statement was true then there would be a citable media comment agreeing with it. - Shudda 17:59, 27 April 2006)

[edit] Dawn service

I attended the dawn service this year at the AWM, I was surprised at how Christian the service was (Hymns, prayers, most of the speakers were defence force chaplins etc.) is this the same everywhere in Australia? How about New Zealand? Should the christian tone of the commomeration be mentioned in the article?--nixie 05:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

In earlier times a Christian service would be expected, its disappointing that now it is seen as a surprise. Most soldiers who died were members of churches, buried in church grounds, had monuments built on church land by the congregations who mourned their members' loss. Not to mention higher levels of religiosity in that era from which those soldiers are from. michael talk 06:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I normally attend the Albany dawn service, and it strikes me as half Christian service, half military service. Yes, it has the hymns and prayers. Yes, it also has salutes, flag raising and lowering and lots of military bigwigs. (Maybe we get less chaplins and more Officers simply because it's Albany) I don't think it really needs to be added though. Morgrim 11:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gallipoli --> Gallipoli, Turkey

There is a Wikipedia:Requested move to move the page Gallipoli to Gallipoli, Turkey because there is a Gallipoli, Italy. If you would like to express an opinion on this proposed move please follow the link to Talk:Gallipoli --Philip Baird Shearer 15:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

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