Talk:Antipodes

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] External site

I'm pretty sure the external website being linked to doesn't work correctly. I started in Missouri and ended up in Antarctica, when I should have ended up somewhere in the Indian Ocean according to this website [1] (linked to from Antipodal point. When I tried to revert my action to get back, I ended up in the Arctic (I think). Anyone else confirm or deny this problem? If I zoom out before clicking "Dig it" (since Google Earth understandably doesn't have street-level topo maps of either the Indian Ocean or Antarctica), it appears to briefly flash to an Ocean, then dumps me into the tundra. Even weirder, if I try to reverse my hole, I end up somewhere north of Siberia. Maybe it's a Firefox quirk...?? For right now, I'm linking it to the static map in the other article instead. -- nae'blis (talk) 21:21, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References?

I removed this from the article, where it was stuck in as a comment:

Coelius Secundus Curio 'De Amplitudine Regni Coelestis'

Should this be a reference? — Johan the Ghost seance 20:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

My rationale for merging is that the two articles seem to be about the same subject (the "Antipodes" of London is the same thing as the "Antipodal point" of London), and entirely complementary. Antipodes contains etymology and historical significance; Antipodal point contains (apart from some duplicated stuff) the technical side. What do folks think? I'd be happy to do the work, and a little cleanup at the same time. — Johan the Ghost seance 23:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that one article is mainly about geography and the other mainly about mathematics. Possibly some information should be moved from this article to the other, but I think it's important to have a separate article on mathematics. Something like the Borsuk-Ulam theorem would be out of place in an article on geography. Michael Hardy 01:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
That's a good point. The way I see it, Antipodal point contains the "geographical" info. about "antipodes" (ie. that you add 180 deg and flip N/S), plus the more abstract maths stuff. The main Antipodes article definitely (in my view) needs the geographical stuff — an article about a geographic subject that just explains its etymology is a bit naff — but the "pure maths" stuff (basically the Generalization to more dimensions section) could go to, say, "Antipodes (mathematics)". Antipodal point would then be a redirect to Antipodes, which would refer people to "Antipodes (mathematics)" for the more abstract version. (Or maybe it should be "Antipodal point (mathematics)".) The maths article would then be tagged with the appropriate maths categories. What do you think of that? — Johan the Ghost seance 11:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
"Antipodes (mathematics)" is a terrible name for an article. I've never heard a mathematician use the word "antipodes" as a mathematical term except as a plural of the (back-formed) word "antipode". Wikipedia article titles should not be plural without an identifiable reason to avoid the singular in a particular case. Michael Hardy 22:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This merger is going to need a careful survey of all the links to these two articles, to make sure that they end up linking to the appropriate final article. — Johan the Ghost seance 12:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hiya, FYI, I wanted to let you know that I'm planning on making another Antipodes-related page, Antipodes (sculpture). It's a famous sculpture at the Hirshhorn Museum in Washington DC that is a sister sculpture of Kryptos at the CIA, and has one of the world's most famous unsolved codes on it. This plan probably doesn't have any direct impact on the merge proposal, since it'll just involve a disambiguation link, but I still wanted to give you advance notice since there's discussion about moving things around. Elonka 12:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I guess we need "For the sculpture, see..." at the top of the page. An alternative would be to make "Antipodes" into a disambig. page, but since I think the geographical meaning is the "main" one, I think it makes sense to do it the other way. — Johan the Ghost seance 12:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I think keeping the primary meaning (geographic) at Antipodes and making Antipodes (disambiguation) for linking to the others is the usual style when one use is overwhelming more common. How soon do you expect to be making your other article, Elonka? -- nae'blis (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion — yes, Antipodes (disambiguation) seems like a smart move. As for your question, you should probably use her talk page, as she may not be watching here. Cheers, — Johan the Ghost seance 16:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Making the article has been on my list for awhile, but I keep getting sidetracked with other articles or disputes (right now I'm gearing up for an RfC about a user who keeps making personal attacks). My best guess though is "some time within the next week". If you want me to hold off though, I can. Just let me know whatever is least confusing.  :) Elonka 16:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've had a go at making this into the "geography" article on antipodes, and antipodal point the mathematical article. It's far from perfect, but I think it's a start. I've checked the pages that link to both articles, and (after a couple of changes) they all seem to be linking to the appropriate place.

I've held off for now from renaming either article, as it doesn't really seem to be necessary, although maybe antipodal point could become "antipodal point (mathematics)" just for emphasis. Likewise, I don't see too much need to create "Antipodes (disambiguation)" right now... ? — Johan the Ghost seance 22:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I've made antipode into a disambiguation page; formerly it redirect to antipodal point. Then I changed antipodal so that it redirects to antipode (the disambiguation page) instead of redirecting to antipodal point. Next I'll see what I can do with the links to antipode. Michael Hardy 22:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Replaced text

I replaced this translation of Plato by W.R.M. Lamb (according to the article, but there was no cited reference) with a translation which actually uses the word antipodes.

[62d] For suppose there were a solid body evenly-balanced at the center of the universe, [63a] it would never be carried away to the extremities because of their uniformity in all respects; nay, even were a man to travel round it in a circle he would often call the same part of it both "above" and "below", according as he stood now at one pole, now at the opposite. (πολλάκις ἂν στὰς ἀντίπους) For seeing that the Whole is, as we said just now, spherical, the assertion that it has one region "above" and one "below" does not become a man of sense.

— Johan the Ghost seance 22:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info in lead

The previous version of this article contained the following text in the lead:

In the United Kingdom, "the Antipodes" and "Antipodeans" are often used to refer to Australia and New Zealand, and their inhabitants.

This information is expanded on in the Regional usage section.

I think that this text (or something like it) should be allowed to stand because:

  1. (important) The purpose of the lead section is to quickly satisfy the needs of someone who comes to an article wanting to know what it is about. The "Australia/NZ" usage is not information about antipodes. It is a meaning of antipodes. As a meaning of the term, it should be mentioned in the lead.
  2. (less important) The lead section should be a summary of the whole article, so it's perfectly legitimate to have repetition, as long as the lead is a summary of information which is filled out in the body of the article.

Comments?

And yes, I think the lead could mention something about the origin/etymology of the term. — Johan the Ghost seance 14:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No objections raised, so I restored it. — Johan the Ghost seance 14:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. Tomertalk 03:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it a bit to mention that the usage is common in Europe. Sergio Ballestrero 19:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture/text conflict

I also noted that the article says "For example, the antipodes of New Zealand's north island lie in Spain." which does not match what I see in the map. Could this be a problem of the Mercator projection used by the map? or is it a mistake in the article ? If it is a problem of the map, it should be at least mentioned in its caption. Sergio Ballestrero 19:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antipodes as a European term???

Given the history of changes to this article designed to cop out the term and make it appear as though Britain has some sort of, albeit weak standing, case to refer to Australia and New Zealand as their antipodes, I suspect this is yet another case of this. I can't find a source to back it up so I have removed it and will continue to remove it until it is backed up by a source. Factoid Killer 20:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Please look at it:Antipodi, which I had linked, and fr:Antipodes too, before asserting the lack of source. Quite frankly I do not understand why you have such a problem with the simple fact that in Italy we often refer to Australia as being "agli antipodi". I do understand very well that Australia is not exactly at the geometrical antipodes of Italy or France or UK, but it is still the piece of land that is nearest to it; and most people do not care about geographical or geometrical precision in daily language use... Just as a quick reference, a Google.it search of Antipodi Australia has ~24000 hits. And, according to the french wiki page, frenchmen do the same. So, I do stand for my edit, and I would really appreciate if you could put back the reference to wider European use of the term - do it yourself, so you can choose how. --Sergio Ballestrero 23:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
PS the term has no offensive meaning in italian, and is also generically used as a synonim of "opposite".
I don't speak Italian nor French and thus cannot verify the sources. There are 46 countries in Europe before you refer to Europe you should establish such use is representitory. But if you'd like to add the use of the term by the people of Italy and France and qualify it with sources, feel free to Factoid Killer 00:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Anecdotally I can confirm that it is not a term generally used in Ireland. Factoid Killer 00:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I actually do not care that much about the question in itself, but the problem of proving the common usage in a language to a person that is unable to speak it is challenging and interesting in itself, as the combination makes it very hard to strictly comply with WP:Source ( isn't this a very encyclopedic point of view :-P ?). Finding documentation in English that discusses how Italians use "agli antipodi" ("at the antipodes") to refer to New Zealand or Australia is apparently bejond Google my skills. You would not necessarily trust my translation, and you may not really trust, or even bother, to use an automatic translator like Babelfish, but at least it is unbiased and independently verifyiable:

http://www.newzealandeducated.com/Italy/index.html says Un viaggio di studio “agli antipodi” può facilmente trasformarsi in un soggiorno indimenticabile. La Nuova Zelanda offre un grande varietà di paesaggi incantevoli... that http://www.google.com/language_tools translates to A travel of study “to the antipodal ones” can easy be transformed in an unforgettable stay. New Zeland offers a great variety of charming landscapes...

http://www.globalgeografia.com/mondo/antipodi.htm says Forse il diffuso errore, insegnatoci a scuola, che "la Nuova Zelanda si trova agli antipodi dell'Italia" nasce dal fatto che qualcuno ha considerato per sbaglio la longitudine, anzichè ad est, ad ovest del famoso 180° meridiano (nel qual caso molte nostre regioni avrebbero gli antipodi sul territorio di quel lontano Paese). that http://www.google.com/language_tools translates to Perhaps the diffused error, taught to us to school, than “New Zeland is found to the antipodal ones of Italy” is born from the fact that someone has considered for mistake longitude, anzichè to east, the west of famous 180° the meridian (in the which case many our regions would far away have antipodal on the territory of those the Country).

The Italian WP it:Punto antipodale says: Il termine antipodi viene usato in Europa per indicare l'Oceania. that http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr translates to: The term antipodal comes used in Europe in order to indicate the Oceania. A better translation would be The term antipodes is used in Europe to indicate Oceania.

The French WP fr:Point antipodal says: le terme « antipode » provient du pluriel « antipodes » qui désignait traditionnellement en Europe les régions situées de l'autre côté de la Terre , comme l'Océanie (désignées comme « les Antipodes » ou situées « aux Antipodes »). that http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr translates to: the term "antipode" comes from plural "antipodes" which traditionally indicated in Europe the areas located on other side of the Earth, like Oceania (indicated like "Antipodes" or located "at Antipodes").

The Catalan WP ca:Antípoda says: S'utilitza el plural, antípodes, per anomenar les terres més pròximes al punt antípoda. Per exemple, Nova Zelanda es troba als antípodes d'Espanya. that http://www.comprendium.es/index_demo_text_ca.html translates to The plural, Antipodes, is used for calling the earth|lands nearest in the Antipodes point. For example, New Zealand is in the Antipodes of Spain.

Spanish, German and Russian do not mention the use. Dutch, Polish, Swedish, Danish, Estonian WP only have stubs; Polish mentions "terra australis"

Just for fun, I tried also the translation of the Japanese WP by Google Language tools (Babelfish refused the UTF URL), which barely resembles English, so I would not dare assigning it any meaning: And, with Western Europe such as England and France, as for diametrically opposite area it hits against New Zealand, includes also Australia and when it points is many. And, the [anteipodesu] archipelago of the New Zealand southwest is the name which is associated with being categorized to the diametrical opposition of the Greenwich observatory.

I can add to this by mentioning sites in italian where the two words ("antipodi" and "australia" or "antipodi" and "nuova zelanda") are featured quite prominently, so that the correlation can be evident even for someone who does not speak the language:

I can also give some titles of books and DVDs which mention both, or clearly refer to the other:

Finally, Google associations, from http://www.google.it/, restricting to "pagine in Italiano":

  • Antipodi : 248.000
  • "australia" 15.900.000
  • antipodi australia : 23.800
  • "nuova zelanda" 2.000.000
  • antipodi "nuova zelanda" : 10.700
  • "sud africa" 1.820.000
  • antipodi "sud africa": 764
  • "giappone" 4.870.000
  • antipodi "giappone" 18.300

so, the numbers alone are actually quite meaningless - I actually had to read the excerpts to discover that Japan is at the antipodes of Italy for culture, cuisine, business... :-)

Well, it took way too much time, but it was quite fun :-). FactoidKiller, everybody: would you consider this appropriate proof? Or how would you go about proving this to WP standards ? As I said, the specific case is not so important, but the general question is, especially for those like me who do some translations between it:WP and en:WP. Sergio Ballestrero 23:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

It's good enough for me to add Italy and France. What about Spain? It is actually at the antipodes of New Zealand. Factoid Killer 00:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Parts of Portugal are also antipodes of parts of NZ. JackofOz 01:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/n/t/Talk%7EAntipodes_f3bb.html"