Talk:Anti-Christian prejudice

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NOTE On December 19, 2005 User:JHCC moved Christianophobia to Anti-Christian prejudice. Much of the material below relates to the original article's name and placement.

For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Christianophobia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Christian prejudice article.

Contents

[edit] NPOV Dispute

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if "Christianophobia" is meant as a Christian analog of Anti-Semitism, then it should refer to only to an deeply ingrained fear and/or hatred of Christians, specifically because of their Christianity. This may be a legitimate problem in some cases, but, in my opinion, the writers of this article seem to be applying this definition to many things that the term really shouldn't apply to:

  • Anything expressing even remotely anti-Christian sentiment, or even simple disagreement with the tenants of Christianity. Even Apostasy seems to fall under the author's definition of Christianophobia.
  • Things that aren't specifically against Christians/Christianity, but are targetted against ANY belief system other than that of the group in question. These are cases of general Religious intolerance, not Christianophobia.
  • Placing blame for events like the Crusades on Christianity. It might be unfair to personally blame a modern Christian for these, but the Christians of the time were responsible for these, so it's hardly unfair to call this Christianophobia. Mind you, some of these events might be a contributing cause of some culture's properly-labeled Christianophobia, so it could be a legitmate point to bring up in the article.

Personally, I'm not sure if this article is savable. Other than the term itself, it doesn't seem to be saying anything that isn't already covered on the Persecution of Christians page. While that page has it's share of controversy, it at least seems to -try- to be neutral. The best thing to do might be to reduce this page to a short description of the term, and then link to the Persecution of Christians for details.

- Pacula 12:26, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Christianophobia is very intense in Muslim countries" - what kind of blanket statement is this? This page needs to be purged of its major POV, if it needs to exist at all. --Padraic 19:52, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

This article has gotten notably better recently, but still has a long way to go. The new opening and the "Causes of" sections are good and I think pretty fairly neutral. However the 'Effects of' section seems pretty biased, and I still think the whole 'history' section is Persecution of Christians material at best, and could very well deserve to be dumped entirely.

- Pacula 10:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

i agree that the history could go. how would you suggest fixing the "effects of" section to make it more neutral? Ungtss 15:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
How about deleting it entirely? Most of the points are practically unsubstantiatable. The phrase "many Christians perceive' comes up in half the points, which alone should invalid them as valid 'effects'. The last point wants to blame a whole slew of things on "Christianophobia" - while some of these might fall under Persecution of Christians (ie the attempted purging of the Russian Orthodox church), I wouln't blame ANY of them on "fear/hatred of christians" - Pacula 20:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
i understand that you wouldn't blame it on christianophobia, but many christians do. do a quick google search on "christianophobia" and "christophobia" and you'll read a lot of opinions to that effect. there's a lot about media portrayals, the exclusion of christianity from the EU constitution, and a lot of stuff from canada. it's a widely used term used by christians to describe their experiences. it doesn't qualify as persecution per se -- because it's more subtle and culturally based. i don't see the purpose in deleting those views as long as they're attributed -- if you'd like balance, there are a lot of "christianophobia is a bunch of crap" articles other there too you could summarize ... Ungtss 01:28, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Ungtss, your recent additions to the 'effects of' section are making it worse POV-wise, not better. Calling stuff like keeping nativity scenes off public property 'fear/hatred of christians' is silly - at worst it could be considered political correctness gone too far. Also, the idea of there not being any positive portrayals of Christians in seven year's worth of film is laughable - and using a quote like that from a non-christian to turn 'many christians believe' into 'many people believe' is a pretty dishonest way of dodging my earlier complaint. - Pacula
I can definitely understand where you're coming from. I suggest that the solution here is to keep in mind the structure of npov -- it doesn't mean that all readers have to think that all views expressed in the page are good -- it means simply that all views be relevant and attributed to those who hold them -- pro AND con. the bit about nativity scenes (although often seen as laughable) is seen by others as quite serious -- particularly the person who wrote the linked article. I would be thrilled if you would add a "criticism of christianophobia" section that summarizes the many criticisms of this concept, in order to add balance. I'd gladly do it myself, but i think that given my "christianophobia exists" bias, i wouldn't be as qualified to do it as you. would you be willing to do that to add balance to the article, rather than simply deleting the views which you find to be groundless? the purpose of wikipedia is to provide the sum of human knowledge. christianophobia as a concept exists -- and there are arguments pro and con for whether it exists in reality. would you be willing to provide the "con?" Ungtss 00:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I had been avoiding editing the article myself directly, because in all honesty I don't really know THAT much about the subject - just that my 'BS-detector' went off when reading the original article. But in all fairness, since I'm the original complainer, I should at least make an attempt. I'll read it over carefully and see what I can do, mainly with the 'Effects of' section, which I might turn into a 'count-vs-counterpoint', which probably will end up being biased too far the other way... :) - Pacula 20:27, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
sounds good to me:). a quick google search will turn up a dozen articles by people who agree with you that this is nonsense:). Ungtss 23:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't like this article or anything about it. Unfortunately, I'd say the same thing about Paris Hilton or Ebonics. This is a valid, encyclopedic article whose topic is fundamentally (no pun intended) different from both Religious intolerance and Persecution of Christians. Religious Intolerance deals with an attitude where particular religious beliefs or acts are either prohibited, abhorred or suppressed. Persecution refers primarily to a governmental or societal attack upon a particular religious belief system. The term Christianophobia deals with a personal revulsion, fear or prejudice felt by individuals or groups toward an individual based solely on the knowledge of the target's Christianity. It is not intolerance because the feelings are toward the practitioner not the practice; it is not persecution because it is personal, not societal. I think this is a valid topic. On the other hand, that does nothing to solve the fact that the article is POV-saturated. It will be very hard for anyone, especially any North American, to find a NPOV from which to write. We are so steeped in religion that neutral ground is difficult to find. Also, the article needs to dump a lot of the martyrdom references, since few resulted from Christianophobia. Stick to things that are NOT state-sponsored or resulting from overt acts contravening local custom or law. A good example would be the killing of missionaries in India. PS: Neologism was a neologism in 1800, and Wikipedia is one today. We make up words constantly to describe new, newly recognized or newly differentiated concepts. To knock articles out on this basis is, at best, arbitrary and an attempt to "nail down" a living language (with nods and obeisance to the WikiGods). Kevin Wells 18:59, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whomever (untss?) has been making the most recent changes has been doing a reasonbly good job - I'm still not sure what to do with this whole article, but it's looks less and less like something that deserves to be deleted. The mostly-new 'critisism of' section definately seems fair and helps to counter out some of the bias in the previous sections - except the 'effects of' which while improved a bit still needs major work or a trip to the bitbucket. Still though, I think the word is too much a neologism to deserve it's own article - perhaps after the current 'delete' situtation settles (which I must emphaize I did NOT initiate - I had considered it,but I'm still too much a 'n00b' here to make that kinf of descion), the good parts of this article (quite a few now) could me merged to a 'modern persecution' section of the 'percectution of chrtisians' page (perhaps even calling it something like christianophobia - fear and persecution of christians in the modern world), and the current page redirected there. My own 'deleteion' vote is currently remains 'delete', though if the article improves significantly more, I'd be more than happen to change my vote to 'merge' with POC.

- Pacula 18:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

thanks ... feel free to develop the criticism section more fully as well! Ungtss 18:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Dispute closure

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm starting to think that this page is getting close to where is should be. A quick reading-over showed no overtly biased sections or workings (mind you it's late at night at the moment here and I probably should be in bed hours ago. I'll look it over with a clearer and more critical eye as soon as I can. - Pacula 03:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neologism?

This seems to be a neologism -- even though a very famous and influential person coined the word, it's still just a neologism. I suggest redirecting it to Persecution of Christians. -Rholton 12:24, May 1, 2005 (UTC) (a committed Christian)

I disagree. It should stand on its own, as Christianophopia is not only expressed in persecution. Other "-phobia" terms are of recent invention also. Pollinator 13:08, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
After reading through the deletion policy pages, I'm in complete agreement that this is a neologism and that this page should be at least considered for deletion. I'm not completely convinced that deletion is the best idea though - even though it is almost unarguably a neologism, perhaps the page itself should be kept because of the term's origin. In this case, the page should be reduced to a quick description of the term and where it came from. In either case, anything unique on the current page worth keeping (if there is anything worth keeping - I'm doubtful myself) should be moved to Persecution of Christians or Religious intolerance. Pacula 12:23, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
i think there's precedent for this page staying full and separate in the tradition of Islamophobia and Persecution of Muslims, and homophobia and homosexual panic. Homophobia is explicitly identified as a neologism, but has its own article. i don't see why the status of christophobia as a neologism means it should be reduced to stub status. this word has been used in specific contexts by specific published authors to mean a specific thing. don't we need an article to describe that? Ungtss 13:22, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
The problem is that the article as written has NOTHING to do with any 'real' christianophobia, which as I understand it is a relatively recent issue, or even if it really is a real issue at all. This entire article is about historical percecution of christians and general religious intolerance, and has nothing at all to with 'irrational fear (and possible persecution) of christians because of their christianity', which is what I understand the word is supposed to mean. Also, I would not consider 'irrational fear of western civilization in general' to be the same thing as christianophobia, since though christianity is common and traditional in most 'western' countries, it is far from universal. - Pacula 21:12, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I think you're right. i added some instances of christophobia. is that better? Ungtss 21:48, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

I wish to throw my weight behind deletion. First, it is a neologism. Second, the article is clearly biased. Among other errors it follows the rights current path of arguing that somehow underrepsented minorities have become some powerful that they are oppressing the majoirity. To argue, as this article does, that only christians are capable of democrat government is racism of the worst kind. The article devalues the views of Islamic countries which oppose Christian mercanaries, but not Christian practice. The Shari'a is clear prohibiting prosletizing of all religions, except Islam, so why is this anti-christian. It is pro-Islamic, not a good thing, but not anti-chrisian specifically.

The article is bigoted, biased and should be deleted.--24.126.240.60 02:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Deletion is not a solution to a "bigoted, biased" article. The solution to that problem is to fix the article. See Wikipedia:Deletion policy. -Rholton 12:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
I'm in agreement that deletion isn't the solution to a POV issue, but I had been thinking that the original article was SO bad that it needed to be started over from scratch. Also, 'christianophobia' arguably is a neologism, which is a possibly valid reason for deletion - though I am unsure if this is the case here. Some of the new material added since my original complaint is actually quite good and unbiased (the opening and the 'causes of' section) but the 'effects of' section is extremely biased, and (as I've already said multiple times) the whole 'history' section belongs on Persecution of Christians or Religious intolerance, if not deleted outright. - Pacula 12:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I would argue this is indeed a neologism and is, thus, eligable for a VfD. Given that a google test only gives 965 hits[1] compared to islamaphobia which returns 119k hits[2]. POV or useful content can be merged into other documents if this page is deleted so the work will not be wasted. Axon 16:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV

Why don't we create the article Naziphobia and have done with it?

go ahead. it's a computer virus. no books or statements from the pope about it tho. Ungtss 15:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Looks like somebody did :) - Pacula 17:14, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
...And, a bit ironically but not unentirely unexpected, that page itself is now up for a deletion vote.... - Pacula 10:59, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Meaning what - that Christians are Nazis, I suppose? There's a tidy illustration of what the article is talking about, I suppose! But, I have a strong suspicion that it took someone a lot of work to dig up this term. Personally, I would be profoundly disappointed to hear the words, Christianophobia, or Christianophobe, slipping into common use. The article is overblown given the rarity of use, it substantially overlaps Persecution of Christians (at least in principle - that article is now a horrible mess, too), it doesn't provide the a better venue for discussing, and the article quickly runs out of real material and devolves into a recursive examination of how the word might be applied. Like other "-ophobe" concepts it has a political and rhetorical payload which it hopes to spread by popularizing the use of the terminology. I don't think it is encyclopedic to publish usage guides for politically charged neo-logisms. A brief history of the origins and meaning of the word, and the phenomenon it symbolizes, is the most that it deserves. Mkmcconn (Talk) 22:26, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Remove POV notice?

I aggressively reduced the content of this article, but I think that in doing so the sound to noise ratio went way up. If you agree, may I remove the POV notice? Mkmcconn (Talk) 23:46, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Looking through the Talk above, it seems as though the POV issues that were raised no longer typify this article. I've removed the notice; but of course, await review. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of causes

  1. Guilt by association with the political policies of the United States and West in general, particularly colonialism and the war on terror.
  2. Association of Christianity with ideologies of homophobia, heterosexism, and patriarchy--as well as the Christian Right's efforts to deny the rights of women and homosexuals.

These last two in the list don't sound like what I'm reading in what I can find of Weigel on-line. I don't have his books, though. Were they added to balance his list? In that case, they should go with, "other writers point to ..." Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Moved into a new paragraph. Mkmcconn (Talk) 00:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weigel

While Weigel may have written on a book on this subject, I have to take issue with whether some of the things he lists are actually causes of christianophobia.

George Weigel attributes christianophobia today to a number of causes:

  • The rejection of Christianity in favor of secular humanism by many European and American intellectuals in the 19th century.
The link between this and an "irrational fear of Christians" seems tenuous to me. This is an example of individuals making personal choices, and given they the fact they were intellectuals, the presumption should be that it was a rational, not an irrational choice. One can choose to be a secular humanist without having an irrational fear of Christians. To compare, would you say that "the rejection of the Jewish faith in favor of secular humanism by many European and American intellectuals in the 19th century" was inherently anti-Semitic?
  • The experience of the Holocaust, which many European intellectuals concluded was the logical outcome of Christian bigotry through the centuries
I have not heard this claim much, but if intellectuals made this claim, then even if they are wrong, it's not an irrational fear...regardless of whether the link is warranted or not, they are citing verifiable historical events, so the claim that this is an irrational conclusion doesn't hold up (it may be an incorrect rational claim, but that's another matter)
  • Europe's present associations of "religiosity" with "America," and in particular with George W. Bush, who still scores reliably high negatives in opinion polls across the continent
There are many reasons Europeans have a negative opinion of Bush, religion is just one among many.

Revolver 21:12, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Do these bullet-points accurately reflect Weigel wrote, though? Is there a published rebuttal to what he's written? Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] not surprising

45 million, or two-thirds of all Christians killed on account of their beliefs in the last 2000 years, were killed in the twentieth century, according to The New Persecuted: Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs.

This is hardly surprising, given the population density of the world over the past 2000 years. Most people that have lived in the past 2000 years have lived in the past 200. Revolver 19:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
This is a very, very dubious statistic. That means that 30 odd million people have been killed specifically for Christian beliefs in the last century. I suspect that a lot of very dubious inclusions have to be made to sustain that figure. Paul B 13:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Has it ever come across both your minds that the number of Christians killed might actually be larger than you percieve or are even told, especially considering the difficulty and inaccuracy of body counts? And that doesn't even count any instances of suicide by the persecuted. 'Dubious' indeed. In addition, the source of the data is cited, so the reader can verify for her/himself the validity of the claim.

[edit] comparison to "crimes of Islamic terrorists"

A sentence that has been replaced, that compared the Christian right to Islamic terrorists, and argued that it is unjust to blame all Christians for the crimes of a few, in the same way that it would be wrong to blame all Muslims. A sentence like that has all kinds of problems, which I hope all can see. I replaced it with "(writers argue) such a view is unjust". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Where's theofobia?

With 16,900 entries on Google, I'm surprised that the God-fearing don't have their own article. lysdexia 03:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A new suggestion

I've suggested on talk:Anti-Christianity that that page and this be merged into a new article called Anti-Christian prejudice, of which the Christianophobia material can be a distinct section. That eliminates the problem of a neologism as the title of an article, as well as giving a more specific and clearly definable subject. Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 16:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is an additional suggestion I made on the Talk:Criticism of Christianity page:

The nice thing about Anti-Christian prejudice is that it means exactly what it says. Christianophobia, like anti-Semitism and "homophobia", seems to suffer from a confusion between "unfavorable mental attitude" and "hate-motivated behavior", while the word itself means "fear of Christians" (and Christophobia would literally mean "Fear of Christ"!). The UN and the UNHCR use of the term seems to be fairly recent, so usage isn't yet settled. Until it is, I support moving Christianophobia to Anti-Christian prejudice, keeping Christianophobia as its own section (suitably edited), moving the material currently in Anti-Christianity into Anti-Christian prejudice, and perhaps making Anti-Christianity into a disambiguation page that can direct people to Anti-Christian prejudice, Criticism of Christianity, Persecution of Christians, etc, with some good, simple definitions of each. JHCC (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

Aren't kids NOT supposed to watch PG-13 movies in class? Heck, I'm in high school, and our school has never been allowed to watch PG-13 movies. Isn't this NPOV and stereotypical about Christians? I'm a christian and I'm allowed to watch PG-13 movies.Sargent Teff 21:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just a notice.

NOTE:

My edit says something about a statement being NPOV. I actually meant POV. Sorry, it's really late at night and I'm not totally with it right now.

[edit] POV statements

My edits have been reversed (in some ways) twice now by Pollinator, and while I have (in my opinion, anyway) attempted to frame the section "Issues Concerning the American Government" in an un-biased way, the statements Pollinator has added are mildly to heavily biased, including the following:

"including the intelligent design, anti-abortion and opposition to the homosexual agenda."

It could be argued that a "gay agenda" does not exist. Thus, I propose that to make the statement less POV we add the phrase "opposition to gay rights" and link it to the article of the same name.

Also, we have this from the same section:

"while the ACLJ seeks to define separation of church and state in the same way as the founding fathers, and that policies designed to foster religious tolerance are actually intolerant of Christians. A large part of the ACLJ caseload involves defending the first ammendment rights of Christian students who are denied freedom of speech or assembly by school administrations, while other groups do not encounter this same discrimination."

Which, unlike the questionable stauts of the last statement, is blatantly POV. If anyone would like to discuss this, feel free. I also think that we might want to expand some areas of the article concerning discrimination against Christians in other nations.

Mister Mister 10:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


I personally have encountered many Christians who have been discriminated against (speech-wise) in school administrations and colleges, but I think that though this is more publicized (and maybe even more common), other groups do encounter discrimination in this way as well. That was a good comment by Mister Mister. --Feline

[edit] Vandalism

Does anyone know who this 64.122.203.173 individual who keeps vandalizing the article is? I'd really like to know, as this is getting a tad ridiculous. Any suggestions on dealing with this problem or finding out exactly what's going on would be appreciated.

Mister Mister 11:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It's just standard Wiki vandalism crap, and we can deal with it in the usual fashion:
  1. I just edited 64.122.203.173 (talk • contribs • logs • block user • block log)'s "talk" page to give them a "final warning" against vandalizing Wikipedia.
  2. If they do it again soon (within 24 hours or so), report them at WP:AIV. A Wiki Administrator will look over the situation and issue a short-term ban if warranted.
  3. If they come back and do it again, lather, rinse, and repeat. The bans will grow longer and longer.
Atlant 15:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prejudice?

I have to say that whoever wrote this article is obviously another idiot christian who believes that anyone who disagrees with him is just pure unintelligent prejudice. Mate...get stuffed.

What? All 70 odd people? :-) --GunnarRene 20:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with the above, this article was written by and is for stupid right wing jackasses....

I also agree, I find this whole article to be biased towards conservatives and absolutely lacking in substance.

While I prefer to speak a little more eloquently, I must agree basically with the point of view expressed above. This article seems to be the English Wikipedia's Christian equivalent of Islamophobia, which is a much more neutral term. I have plenty of anti-Christian sentiment, but I really don't like a supposedly neutral encyclopedia openly accusing me and those with similar views of "religious intolerance...stereotyping, discrimination, [and] persecution", when in fact my views are inspired by the obvious fact that Christianity has always promoted intolerance, bigotry and hatred. I am a universalist, in that I believe that all mythologies and philosophies ("religions" in common terminology) deserve to be allowed to exist and continue to flourish. Christianity (and to a lesser extent Judaism and Islam) has always sought to proselytize all others - paganism throughout Europe, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, etc. - into extinction. It's right there in their "holy" scriptures. I've researched it. I am not guilty of prejudice, as I believe any "Christian" who is not actually an intolerant bigot is about as good as a non-Christian. Whereby this article must be saved, for there is not salvation in any previous editor, it seems, for their names are not given under heaven. Or something. elvenscout742 01:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Are we reading the same article? The one I read might as well have said "Christians make trouble and then whine when people don't like them so here's their whiner persecution-complex word." It says little to nothing of majority non-Christian societies and the prejudice Christians still face their. Granted much of that fits Persecution of Christians, but some is just general prejudice. What you're saying of Christianity makes me think you think it's not clear enough that "Christianity is bad so it deserves it's intolerance and here's why." Also of course you are prejudiced. Your view on Christianity is nothing but prejudice. What matters is if you're prejudice is justified. You feel it is and you have that right.--T. Anthony 10:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Elvenscout, your views seem to be a bit prejudiced and so I wouldn't be surprised if someone did accuse you of being a bigot or intolerent. The very fact that you claim all Christians are intolerent (or Non-Christian) shows both your lack of understanding of teh scriptures you have read, or the fact that you have read a book and thought it was the Bible, and your intolerence. I am not intolerent, I agree with teh choice to belief what you wish, I think all good people will go to heaven, I have no problems with Homosexuality and I respect all other faiths...I also believe in parts of other faiths...but I am a Christian and I am slightly annoyed that you are making an attack on all christians. Please do not be a bigot, I will say again that Religious Intolerence is as bad as Racism, Homophobia, Sexism and all other intolerences. Idi Amin wouldn't have thought himself a tyrant! Sigurd Dragon Slayer

When Jews complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When homosexuals complain about prejudice, it's intolerant bigotry. When Christians complain about prejudice, they just deserve it. Well folks, bigots always complain the prejudiced group deserves what they get.

when in fact my views are inspired by the obvious fact that Christianity has always promoted intolerance, bigotry and hatred.
Who was Christianity hating on in the first two centuries AD? Who did the Quakers or Mennonites ever oppress?--T. Anthony 06:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Secularism hasn't been much better going back to the French Revolution when people, including my ancestor, lost their heads because they were Christians. Secular regimes have murdered more Christians in the name of tolerance and equality in France, Italy, Spain, Mexico, Russia, China, Nazi Germany, etc., than all of the Inquisitions or religious wars combined. BTW, Germany of Hitler's time was largely secular. Secular regimes are responsible for the deaths of 10s of millions people in the name of tolerance, science, open-mindedness, etc.

Maybe Stalin, Mao and Robespierre are the typical atheist, or at least who atheists should look up to. LOL.

Maybe the Inquisition wasn't so bad after all, considering maybe 300,000 people were killed in all of Europe over its 800 year history, or roughly 375 people per year in a continent of 30 million people.

BTW, why is these same Christianophobic bigots always ignore the good Christianity has brought into the world. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church; universities wouldn't have developed in Europe; the learning of the ancient world would have been lost, and if it wasn't for the development of Scholasticismin the Catholic Church, modern science never would have developed. I guess the intolerant Catholic missionaries were real evil men when they allowed themselves to be murdered by the Spanish as they took up arms to prevent the enslavement of the Indians. Watch The Mission sometime.

I am a universalist, in that I believe that all mythologies and philosophies ("religions" in common terminology) deserve to be allowed to exist and continue to flourish. Christianity (and to a lesser extent Judaism and Islam) has always sought to proselytize all others.

Here's the fallacy of your perspective. If all religions are true, then Christianity is true. Therefore if Christianity is true, and Jesus taught that he was the only way to attain unity and peace with God, then the theory that all religions are true is also false. Logically speaking. Besides, how can you prove that all religions are the same or worthy.

Would those of you who hate Christianity because it teaches that it alone has truth consider the Aztec religion or Celtic religions that practiced human sacrifice to be just as good as others? Perhaps human sacrifice should return to Europe, just as it was practiced by the Druids and other pagan groups.

It's a contradiction in terms to say that all philosophies/religions should be allowed to exist, save one: Christianity. Secular fundies are so hypocritical because on one side they say everyone has to be tolerant, but that tolerance excludes Christians. In the malignant secularist viewpoint, in action not words, Christians are supposed to be second-class citizens who are supposed to sit in a corner and be quiet.[3]

    • That's a straw man argument. I don't know any secularists who say that all religions should be allowed to exist except for Christianity. Do you have counterexamples, or are you just stereotyping/exaggerating? Most secularists I know are happy for all religions to co-exist as long as their followers don't try to force others to follow the same religion. The often aggressive attempts by some Christians to force others to live by the same Christian rules (as they interpret them) is where the problems begin. (And most people who say Christianity shouldn't exist say the same thing about all other religions.) Goulo 07:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

To quote GK Chesterton,"There is no bigot quite like an atheist."

Chesterton was also fond of pointing out just how narrow-minded the Pharisees of tolerance and indifferentism were because their open-mindedness was limited. It was limited by the fact, the admission the Christian God was real would undermine their universe.

"A Christian is only restricted in the same sense that an atheist is restricted. He cannot think Christianity false and continue to be a Christian; and the atheist cannot think atheism false and continue to be an atheist. But as it happens, there is a very special sense in which materialism has more restrictions than spiritualism. Mr. McCabe thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not allowed to believe in fairies. But if we examine the two vetoes we shall see that his is really much more of a pure veto than mine. The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle. Poor Mr. McCabe is not allowed to retain even the tiniest imp, though it might be hiding in a pimpernel. The Christian admits that the universe is manifold and even miscellaneous, just as a sane man knows that he is complex. The sane man knows that he has a touch of the beast, a touch of the devil, a touch of the saint, a touch of the citizen. Nay, the really sane man knows that he has a touch of the madman. But the materialist’s world is quite simple and solid, just as the madman is quite sure he is sane. The materialist is sure that history has been simply and solely a chain of causation, just as the interesting person before mentioned is quite sure that he is simply and solely a chicken. Materialists and madmen never have doubts."[4]

I love atheist tolerance, 100 million dead, 10s of millions whose crime was only being a Christian.--68.45.161.241 03:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I really did not want my view of Christianity to play a part in this, but to point out the systemic bias on English-language Wikipedia when this article is allowed to exist and there is no Anti-Hindu prejudice, Anti-Jewish prejudice, Anti-Buddhist prejudice or Anti-Muslim prejudice. There is no need for this article, and its name clearly indicates an assumption of bad faith - "prejudice" is an inherently derogatory term, accusing the target of ignorant bigotry, even when they could have rational reasoning. I included the broken link to Anti-Christian sentiment and the comparison to Islamophobia as part of this, and then (I admit) went off on an off-topic tangent. Please do not accuse me of "anti-Christian prejudice" - I am merely raising the valid point that this article is heavily biased, and my conflicting views (which I generally keep in check on Wikipedia) are irrelevant. elvenscout742 20:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs serious cleaning up

This article is meant to be the equivalent of the page regarding anti-Semitism and yet whole portions of it are written in such a way as to actually blame Christianity for Christophobia. That's like blaming the Jews that died in Nazi concentration camps on their own actions. Absolutely absurd!!

I have to add this article to the list of articles that is so ridiculously skewed that it needs to be completely redone. --Jtpaladin 20:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Not really - the Jews killed by the Nazis could not change their race, and it was not a valid indicator of their political allegiances or any such thing. The Third Reich was just a racist institution that had no interest in real facts, while anti-Christian sentiment could quite reasonably be caused by narrow-minded televangelist bigots personally giving Christianity a bad name. (BTW, I think the biggest "Christophobes" are probably "God-fearing" Christians themselves;).) elvenscout742 20:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

I wonder, why would anyone follow the "bad guy" who you can all see its obvious how bad he truly is, i wish to find out more about this why they do, but i dont in fear it may be a sin (i am a.. not exactly devoted... but i can not be diverged off my path to God, i am very faithful and loyal to God. i am Catholic)

So pretty much i want to know why people would worship the devil doing things immorally wrong and if even viewing that evil satanistic website would be a sin as i choose to just find out and not convert (HELL NO! i would never want to leave God and go with satan! My life is great the way it is with God!)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.167.252.194 (talk • contribs) .

Why? Because it bothers you. 71.56.215.109 07:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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