Talk:Anti-Brahmanism

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Anti-Brahminism is not haterness towards people but the foolish traditions like denaial of lower people to temples,schools and publicplaces.It was necessary at that time to reform hindusim from caste and other bad things.No one hate Brahmins but their traditions and haterness towards lower cate(though i mentioned lower caste they are no lower but same as all)

I don't think its right to equate all rejections of Brahman culture and tradition as anti-Brahmanism. Of course anti-Brahamism does exist, but to suggest that separatist movements that simply want another system or culture are Anti-Brahman is unfairly categorizing it. If the article wants to link itself to anti-Semitism and such topics, it needs to focus more on hate that lacks justification. One way to find this distinction might be to create a section that outlines the possible causes.

Also, I don't think Anti-Hinduism is directly related to this topic.

128.100.219.132 18:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, the links appear to be coming from the same group of thinkers. Are there any other perspectives on the term?

I forgot to put in the four tildes on my last talk.128.100.219.132 18:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Comments from 172.184.163.189

The following comments were posted into the main text of the article. I've moved them into the discussion page. Anirvan 19:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The 'information' in this page is NONSENSE. Anti-brahmin movements and organisations oppose and challenge the domination and hegemony of the minority brahmin people over the rest of the people of India. These anti-brahmin organisations do not hate/vilify brahmins. They simply expose and challenge the existing injustices and cruelties perpetrated by the brahmins using their self-proclaimed'caste superiority' as an excuse.
Anti-Hindus are not Anti-brahmin and vice versa.
Khalistani seperatists belong to an entirely different religion- They are sikhs and they want a separate country for all sikhs. They may be 'generally' anti-brahmin, but they are also anti-hindu, anti-muslim, anti-christian and anti-India as a whole!
Please read about Periyar EV Ramaswamy , who was one of South india's greatest anti-brahmin revolutionary and who fought for the freedom of the oppressed 'lower' castes.
172.184.163.189 18:29, 21 March 2006

[edit] POV edits by ISKapoor?

User:ISKapoor undid a number of changes I made to this article which attempted to distinguish between anti-Hindu and anti-Brahmin sentiments. He changed this:

Anti-Brahmanism is hostility toward or prejudice against Brahmins, often as a result of historical injustices permeated by the Hindu system of caste and varna, which had Brahmins at the helm. Anti-Brahmin tensions exist in some of the states in India. There is also a significant amount of literature which is anti-Brahmin. Anti-Brahmin sentiments are sometimes encountered in:

to this:

Anti-Brahmanism is is hostility toward or prejudice against Brahmins as a religious, or ethnic, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized attempts to vilify Brahmins. Anti-Brahmanism is common in some of the states in India. There is also a significant amount of literature, generally anti-Hindu, which is anti-Brahmin. Anti-brahminism is often encountered in these regions.

Some of the anti-Hindu groups are also based in Maharashtra.

The edit removes context (e.g. why anti-Brahminism exists), includes red herrings (e.g. the suggestion that Khalistani separatists are primarily anti-Brahmin, rather than more broadly anti-Hindu; or that the persecution of the largely Brahmin Kashmiri Hindu population is motivated by anti-Brahmin sentiments, rather than broader anti-Hindu sentiments), and adds spelling and grammatical mistakes (e.g. "or ethnic", "is is", lowercased "brahminism").

He also changed this:

Some critics of Brahmanism focus on Brahmins' historical exploitation of other groups, and contemporary caste disparities:

Some critics link Brahmanism with Hindu nationalism or the Indian government:

to this:

Here are some example of vilification of the Brahmins.

The edit makes use of POV statements like "vilification of the Brahmins," removes context, deletes link descriptions, and adds a number of links of low relevance (e.g. Khalistan links, and a cached copy of an old message board posting).

Would it be ridiculous to undo these changes, and revert back to the previous version?

As far as I can tell, User:ISKapoor is attempting to drown out any rational explanations of why victims of historical or contemporary Hindu caste oppression might express sentiments against the high-caste Brahmin community. As a Brahmin, I obviously find knee-jerk anti-Brahminism offensive, but it's ridiculous to pretend that there aren't any reasons for it, or that all anti-Hindu sentiment is specifically anti-Brahmin. Anirvan 19:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. When I first read this page, I was stunned at how it made no distinction between hatred and rejection, as well as Hindu and Brahman. The original article was much more NPOV and even informative, as it wasn't clouded with emotional language and opinion. 128.100.219.132 15:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justifying hate

It is possible to justify anti-semetism. I have seem many anti-Jewish publications. However an article on anti-semetism is worthy of being on Wikipedia.

It is true that the Jews are rich and influential. It is also true that the Jews have done what other wealthy people have done.

That does not justify promoting hate against them. There are reasons why a lot of people hate Jews. The success of the Jews is one of them.

I know about caste oppression. I have read numerous articles and books on them. I have to tell you this: Most, if not overwhelming majority, of caste oppression cases reported involve dalits and the members of land-owning castes. Not Brahmins.

Most of the Buddhist Acharyas were Brahmin. First anti-vedic religion (Lingayat) was founded by Basava, a Brahmin. Believe it or not, there would not have been any Sikhism without the active participation of many Brahmins, some of whom are among the Sikh shahids. Ambedkar's wife was a Brahmin. Many Dalit leaders have a Brahmin wife.

Why doesn't anyone hear about these facts? Why have these facts been suppressed?

There are groups and individuals opposed to Hinduism. Some of them need to identify specific people to hate - and the most visible of the Hindus - the Brahmins are there for them.

Hate is hate. Let it be acknowledged, let it be discussed fairly.

--ISKapoor 22:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi ISKapoor. You don't address a single one of my concerns (removal of context explaining the roots of anti-Brahmin sentiment, the repeated conflation of anti-Hindu and anti-Brahmin sentiments, the deletion of link categories and descriptions, inclusion of low-relevance links, and grammar and spelling mistakes). You seem to suggest that it's OK to delete references to Brahmins' oppression of members of other castes because (1) Brahmins aren't the only ones who have been involved in oppressing Dalits, (2) Brahmins have been involved in the development of other religions, and (3) a few male Dalit leaders have Brahmin wives. The "suppression" of information about high-profile Dalit-Brahmin marriages is indeed tragic; perhaps it might make for an interesting sentence or two in an article about changing attitudes toward inter-caste marriage, but it's not immediately relevant to this article. You suggest that anti-Brahmin sentiment is just a kind of confused anti-Hindu sentiment, but that entirely fails to explain why members of other Hindu castes would bear anti-Brahmin sentiments; one can't talk about anti-Brahmanism without talking about the role of caste. Erasing historical context and conflating different types of prejudices is confusing and POV. Anirvan 00:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


ISKapoor, this is in response to your latest revert, and subsequent edits. You still don't explain why anti-Brahmin sentiments exist, choosing to focus on what anti-Brahmanism isn't, instead of what is is, and why it exists, as if you can't believe that there can ever be home-grown anti-Brahmin sentiment. You also state four (!) times that anti-Brahmanism is supported by non-Indian organizations. You state that "Justification of anti-Brahmanism has now been incorporated in the curriculum of some states in India, and many intellectuals feel comfortable with anti-Brahmanism." What are those justifications that you allude to, but don't name? What is it that these intellectuals believe? You're too busy fighting a mute straw man to actual name and describe caste oppression. It's like trying to describe American black power or black supremacy movements, without ever referencing the history of racism that led to their development. I'm also puzzled by your attempt to compare the experience of Brahmins in India to that of Jews in Europe, as if members of the highest Hindu caste in a majority Hindu nation were in the same position as members of a persecuted minority religion.
I don't want to get into an edit war with you. Would you like to take this to a dispute resolution process? Anirvan 05:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


I've written a suggested alternative version of the article so I can show what I'm trying to do. I also submitted this article to the Mediation Cabal. Let's have a third-party look at this. Life's too short for a pointless edit war. Anirvan 18:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


I wanted to document that I deleted ISKapoor's new history of attitudes toward Brahmins section of the article, an attempt to discuss the positive historical importance of Brahmins in various non-Hindu religions, and the growing role of non-Brahmins in contemporary Hindu religious life; both of these further obfuscate the obvious questions: what is anti-Brahminism, why it exists, what the various types of it are, and how it impacts the average Brahmin.
ISKapoor focuses solely on the positive, seeming to suggest (by omission) that Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians, and Jains in South Asia have uniformly positive views toward Brahmins or Brahminical Hinduism -- a very slanted and dubious assertion to make in light of South Asian religious history, given that he labels the section "History of attitudes towards Brahmins" (without qualifications), and that some of the anti-Brahmin links cited elsewhere in the article come from Christians and Sikhs. If some Sikhs and Christians are opposed to Brahmins or Brahminism, then why aren't the reasons they give cited or explored?
He also focuses on the role of non-Brahmin Hindus in contemporary Hinduism, which would definitely make for an interesting section in an appropriate article, but seems to be intended here as a way of saying "non-Brahmins can indeed be part of Hindu religious life, so caste oppression doesn't exist" so as to undercut the reasons given by some non-Brahmin Hindus for their anti-Brahmin sentiments.
Anti-Brahmin sentiment in South Asia is primarily a reaction to historical and contemporary caste-based oppression -- the cause of anti-Brahminism that ISKapoor persistently fails to mention, let alone discuss at any length. He's more focused on whitewashing history, showing anti-Brahmin sentiment as incredibly common ("Justification of anti-Brahmanism has now been incorporated in the curriculum of some states in India"), but actively resisting attempts to list or explain those "justifications." Creating a section that boils down to "everyone likes Brahmins, and caste oppression doesn't exist" fails to do justice to an article on anti-Brahmin sentiment. Some of ISKapoor's contributions might make for a series of interesting separate articles, but they're of low relevance in the context of an article on anti-Brahminism. Anirvan 17:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I am thoroughly familiar with Buddhist, Jain and Sikh texts. There was no anti-Brahmanism in Sikh texts until the British-sponsored Tat Khalsa movement initiated a revision of Sikh tradition. An examination of history is needed to identfy the factors behind hate.
Justifying and sugar-coating hate, (which is not spontaneous rather promoted by interested organizations) should not make hate acceptable. It should be represented factually, without bias, and without attempts to camouflage it.
Practically all instances of upper-caste atrocities involve members of OBC communities and the dalits. --ISKapoor 02:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
  • In my opinion*, both articles (by ISKapoor and Anirvan) are lacking, but the one currently on display (ISKapoor) definitely comes across as conspicuously biased and lacking in any real information. Many of the references (all?) point to the same website and therefore give little impression of any real anti-brahman `trend'. Surely, organisations such as the Dravida Kazhagam cannot be construed as completely `Anti-Brahman', if ISKapoor's definition of Anti-Brahmanism is taken into account. The main reason for the formation of the DK was social, religious, and political *equality*. If this has, indeed, degenerated into Anti-Brahmanism, then references must be provided to substantiate it. Moreover, as Anirvan said, it would be nice to have a section on the impact of this trend on the average brahmin. First and foremost, however, the existence of this trend must be established.--Srikanth srinivasan 19:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

If you want a third party to look at your article you can use WP:3O or WP:RFC. The Mediation Cabal is for mediation when you have an actual dispute, not when you need a third opinion. --Fasten 17:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I closed the cabal case today due to inactivity.

I did however make some recommendations for action by the editors.

In terms of the underlying issue on it comes down to this: there are two fundamental views of anti-Brahmanism:

  1. That it is a natural reaction to class issues inside of India
  2. That is a form of racism promoted by people with anti India interests

The article currently reads as bad propaganda for the second viewpoint. To correct this without starting a revert war I recommend that remaining editors do the following in the following order:

  1. Create a section arguing clearly for the 2nd point of view. That is create a verifiable sub article on this theory quoting its major proponents
  2. Pull from the main body of the article all the defenses of anti anti Brahmanism and simply relay facts about who, why, when, where, what....
  3. Create a section arguing clearly for the 1st point of view. That is create a verifiable sub article on this theory quoting its major proponents. There is already a fairly good start to this User:Anirvan/Anti-Brahmanism

[edit] Today's condition of brahmins

  • Today brahmins are remained very most few. They fought against cruel traditions also example is Lokmanya Tilak. Brahmins must be conserved. They should be given protection because they are not doing any cruelty on any of the caste. Inversely today they are hated and injustised by government and most of the communities in india. Their life has became critical.
      And I think end of brahmins means end of indian culture.

No Indian culture will bloom after Brahmins as a people become one with the others with strict intermarriage between the castes. Brahmins should marry non Brahmins for the good of India.

Sorry old bean, ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Learn to live with it, or don't. Either way, don't rant on wikipedia please.btw I agree with you about the conservation of Brahminical culture. However, it rests on selective breeding of Brahmin clans and should remain so (I'm a Tili myself).(Netaji 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC))

What is the % of intercaste and interreligious marriages in Brahmin community?Unsolicited 07:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

    • agree with the selective breeding principle, but please do not make it sound like it is elitist.

[edit] dalitstan links

all i have to say is dont use chowk.org or dalitstan.com links. both hate sites have been banned since 2001. and it isnt wise to use "papers" presented by morons with no justification. just becuase it is there on the net doesn mean it can be used a source. plz list credible sources.

[edit] Regarding Syrian Christians

I recommend you read the article on nasranis or syrian christians of Kerala. They existed much before the arrival of the christian missionaries. The Syrian christians have some link with the Brahmin families such as a Kalli, Kalikaavu, Pakalomattom and Sankarapuri. There are people belonging to these families who still uphold their family names to identify their ancestory

[edit] The Carvakas

Shouldn't the history section say something about the fiercely anti-Brahminical views of the Carvaka school? Metamagician3000 02:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If you find that documented (I have no idea what a Carvaka is) go ahead and add the stuff. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping to prod someone with more expertise, but a lot was made of this when I studied Indian philosophy. Metamagician3000 02:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The Carvaka school of thought is anti-Brahmin. User:Babub may know more about this, but he also is a Brahmin (though well versed in Hindu philosophy). He's your man, you should make a query on his talk page. I myself am a Brahmin but I care little for philosophy, liking more the historical documents like the Ramayan and Mahabharat and some parts of the Rig-Veda.Bakaman Bakatalk 02:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Define anti Brahminism

Dear friends let us not put any comment in the article which amounts to hate perception among us and gives misleading picture of Hindu Society.The term anti - brahmin has many connotation one of which is being against Brahmin-- The people.But other side of it is being against Brahminism -- The Philosophy.People who were Anti--Brahmin need not be against Brahmin-- the people.Holy|Warrior 11:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Please provide non-partisan sources to prove this. By very definition anti-Brahminism means "those" who are opposed to Brahmins. There may be other interpretations of the word put there by missionaries etc. to try to lure other castes into christianity but they don;t apply to the main meaning, which is hatred for brahmins. By your logic, people could say that anti-muslim means being against Islamic fundamentalism, not just muslims. However, it is accepted that anti-muslims means hate for ALL muslims, not just against the unfortunate few who pervert the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) and Holy Koran to justify terrorism etc. Thus, it follows that the logical meaning of anti-Brahminism means hatred for Brahmins and the Brahmin jaat.Hkelkar 11:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Plus, i think what you're talking about is accurately called "anti-casteism". There should be a separate article on that. I would be happy to contribute to it.Hkelkar 11:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes in broed terms Brahminism = Casteism = Orthodox Hinduism. HW 16:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move suggested

I want to suggest the page be moved to Brahminism and discuss anti brahminism as a section of it.Editors plz express your views.Holywarrior 07:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

No. Anti-Brahminism is distinct from Brahminism. Nobody asks that article on antisemitism be moved to Judaism, or anti-christianity be moved to christianity. if anti-X has historical and cultural resonance, it should be a separate article from X, as is the case here.Hkelkar 11:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Plz don't compare the situation as it may not be useful.HW 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Situation is perfectly comparable and quite useful in fact.Hkelkar 11:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Hkelkar. Brahminism is a fantasy, anti-Brhaminism is like anti-Semitism.Bakaman Bakatalk 17:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree too. Why is an "Anti-XXX" not notable if it exists and if "XXX" is notable enough article. Anti-Islam, Anti-Christianity and any other anti ideology is worthy to have an article if it is widely known. Of course it is comparable. How isn't it? GizzaChat © 03:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Let us apply common sense here --- Won't the existence of Brahminism as an article make this redundant.HW 09:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
No, anymore than the existence of Jews as an article would not make anti-Semitism redundant.Hkelkar 09:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Forum of Inquilabi/Indian/Revolutionary leftists

Not a reliable source. I might as well quote Hindu Unity.`Bakaman Bakatalk 16:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes if it is written by a person of Ilaiah's calibre. HW 16:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ilaiah is not an authority on Hinduism. Therefore he cannot be quoted on matters of Hindu scriptures.Bakaman Bakatalk

He is a world wide acclaimed authority on anti brahminism. HW 16:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He's not an authority on Hinduism, so his quotes on Manusmriti should be disregarded. You still did not qualify him to be an authority on Hinduism.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Read my above comments WELL.Read manusmriti TOO. HW 16:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Bakaman Bakatalk 16:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC) Removed as per WP:BLP see diff. HW 16:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He still cannot be quoted at length, unlike say David Frawley, Koenraad Elst and the like.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
BAKA wikipedia is not your bpkamal where everything will happen according to your will.Infact all are equally quotable HW 16:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
bpkamal? Whatever that is. see WP:RS and WP:ORBakaman Bakatalk 16:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also look at false authority and exceptional evidence/claims.Bakaman Bakatalk 16:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Baka see WP:SFDDGFHJHKJJ ,WP:FGDGFMHJGJK,wp:ghfhygumnbnh and yes WP:redtr applies here,phps WP:tyry is relevant.Thanx. HW 16:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ilaiah is definitely not an authority on anti-Brahmanism. He is an authority on committing anti-Brahmanism, not writing about it since he is (self-professedly) an anti-Brahman.Shiva's Trident 16:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OR? Neologism?

I consider putting this article up for deletion again. The way I see it its a neologism, arbitrarily gathering diverse political elements to single category. Furthermore, all references to dalitstan.org needs to be scrapped, since that site is an obvious spoofing. --Soman 06:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean "you consider"? You are perfectly free to nominate anything for deletion, but considering you have been at wikipedia for a loong time, don't you think such articles as the present one can do with some positive criticism rather than deletion. Your another attempt to have Hindu politics deleted is worth recalling to mind here. BTW, I agree that dalitstan links must be removed. Babub→Talk 13:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is extremely confusing.

From reading this article, a person would have no idea that people of different castes might be using resentment as an excuse for harboring anti-brahmin feelings. Indeed, this article scarcely mentions how brahmins relate to other castes whatsoever. This article reads as if it were written by a Brahmin with wounded feelings. --Roger Williams 11:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Links and refrences: It is very stupid to link Dalitistan and other anonymous links. Dalitistan is registred in the US and the owners as well as the article writers are anonymous. From their language one can say, they are not even Indians. Why give link to them, therby giving them some credibility and publicity which they don't have by themselves. If you want to give reference , refer to real people, real organizations, real political/social organizations and web sites maintained by real people, however hostile they might be towards brahmins. - Vijayaraghavan


No I disagree, this article is lucid and perfectly right!

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[edit] Discussion
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