Talk:António de Oliveira Salazar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Portugal Portal António de Oliveira Salazar is part of WikiProject Portugal, a project to improve all Portugal-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Portugal-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Portugal To-do: edit purge Portuguese COTW Wikipedia:Portuguese Collaboration of the Week/Current Portuguese COTW Improve to Featured status Portugal Improve More... Review Requests See Requested articles Listed for deletion Assess Help assessing articles. Need images Translate from Portuguese Wikipedia Wikify Vote: Watch this list — Edit this list

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

This article is part of WikiProject Fascism, an attempt to better organize and unify articles relating to the fascist ideology, its impact on history and present-day organisations closely linked to both of these (ideology and history). See project page, and discussion. This article may be listed on an index of fascist movements or people. Such listing may be controversial; feel free to contribute to discussions there. The presence of this Talk page-only template only implies that the subject is of interest to the associated WikiProject.

As a Portuguese myself I find it amazing to see how many Portuguese are so much pro-Salazar in Wikipedia. I have to say I find it disgusting. Not only Salazar manage to keep the country underdeveloped (30% of iliterates in 1974) but also he implemented a propaganda policy, a sort of a mind-wash that tshpaed Portuguese mentality for the years to come. Portugal is still suiffering from what happened in the Salazar period. His ideas of the Portuguese, has a "kind", "innocent" and "unpreocupied" people brought us to where we are. Nowadays the average Portuguese has difficulties in believing in an honest, truly democratic state. It's like some people still fear the oppression so many people suffered during Salazar. Read "Portugal Hoje, o Medo de Exisitr", by João Gil.

... And you could sign your name. What's the relevance of this book? The fact is that Salazar is part of Portuguese history, and made a valuable contribution in many things. He left power too late and did not understand that his regime could not outlive him. To confuse that with the usual cliches of "fascism" and in "forced underdevelopment" is (I think) a mistake we should be able not to make, almost 40 years after his death. I am 37 years old (and "old" by wiky standards) and definetly not pro-Salazar. To respect historical figures and to put their work in proper context is the right approach. I say the same about Alvaro Cunhal --BBird 22:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

A fervent Catholic, Salazar made religious education compulsory in schools and Catholicism was Portugal's official religion during his tenure. --> this is formally not true.

Contents 1 World War 2 is lacking information 2 Too much pro-Salazar? 3 Economic Section 4 Removal of TRIVIA 5 Salazar and Hitler 6 Marshall Plan 7 POV introduction (dictator)?

[edit] World War 2 is lacking information

I think the section on portuguese neutrality has to be expanded. It's a huge part of what Salazar did. Also, the information which *is* there is incomplete. His reluctance to go to war with Britain (by siding with the Axis) was also influenced by the Treaty of Windsor (which I believe is the oldest treaty in europe) which ensured that Britain would come to Portugal's aid if they were to be attacked (I think... it's been a long time since I researched this). Also, the article mentions him giving the allies Terceira island to use as a military base: when was this? In my memory of studying his neutral policies, Terceira was only given towards the end of the war. I think it makes a difference when he did it, because it shows whether he was being opportunistic (ie, he saw that an allied victory was inevitable) or a true allied supporter. Also, the tungsten trade deserves more than one sentence.

Because I'm not completely sure of my information, I'm not editing the page. If there's someone who knows what I'm talking about, please make the edits. gsillevis

[edit] Too much pro-Salazar?

I think this article is becoming too much pro-Salazar recently. The last couple of changes, for instance. Every older Portuguese knows about the "Colonial War" (Guerra Colonial), which my grandfather actually fought in... and, yet, they "weren't colonies, but overseas provinces"?!? What's next, Kuwait was an Iraqi province after all?

Just my thoughts. I won't be reversing the changes right now, unless they get worse (I think there were some attempts in the past to "change history" by saying Salazar wasn't a dictator, among others). Dehumanizer 11:47, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They should be reverted, or at least substantially reworked, if you ask me. I thought about doing it, but settled for just making some minor fixes instead. Everyking 16:20, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

On the question of whether the colonies were overseas provinces, perhaps they were overseas provinces in Portugese law. Nor would that be a unique arrangement. Most French colonies were simply colonies, but Algeria was considered as much a part of France as Brittany or Normandy, which is why, like Portugal, France fought so bitterly and so long to prevent Algerian independence, but allowed most of its colonies that weren't considered part of metropolitan France to go their way, or after relatively brief wars. To this day, French Guiana, a former colony in South America, is considered a part of France. The point here being, the article's description of Portugal's overseas holdings as having been overseas provinces rather than colonies should not be dismissed out of hand as pro-Salazar or colonialist propaganda; it may simply be a verifiable fact. 68.100.106.83

I'm pretty sure they were officially named provinces. I even think that Salazar at some point gave them equal status to normal provinces. In reality, however, this was all just cosmetics. Anyway, the history books I have seen usually call them colonies. In my opinion, it is ok to leave provinces in some instances, but the word colonies should also be used. They were called provinces, that's a fact, but they were treated as colonies, and that's a fact as well. Luis rib 02:05, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

They were overseas provinces under the Portuguese Constitution of 1933. There even was a Minister for the Overseas Provinces in the Estado Novo. --MiguelFC 16:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, in the 1971 revision of the Constitution (under Marcello Caetano) it's even said that they can be called "States, according to national tradition" (article 133.º) when the level of the society and administration justifies it. Basically, is the concept of Angola and Mozambique as the "new Brazils", heading for a white independence at some point in the future. Ricardo monteiro 12:26, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The de jure status of the overseas territories should be contrasted with its de facto situation. In practice, most of the indigenous African and Asian subjects of Portugal continued to be second class citizens throughout the dictatorship. Dec. 23 2005

"Salazar's regime has been described by some sources as Fascist, but Salazar himself considered this to be inaccurate. His political philosophy was based around authoritarian Catholic social doctrine, much like the contemporary regime of Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria. The economic system, known as corporatism, was based on the papal encyclicals Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno, which was supposed to prevent class struggle and supremacy of economism." Well, Mussolini also used the Rerum Novarum as an inspiration. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism. It would be nice to know when Salazar repudiated the label of 'fascist'. Was it before the Axis began to lose WWII, or after? It would be even better to assess whether Salazar's Estado Novo satisfied the general characteristics of fascist regimes, rather than to trust the sugary words of dictators. --- The regime never called itself fascist. Serious not passionate comparsons may be made, but not base on cliches. --BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote? What does it matter what dictators call themselves? Some of them have even called themselves democrats. While self-identification has its place in the article, it's best to base the classification of Salazar's regime on objective criteria.

"However, Salazar's regime was much less bloody than other European dictatorships, such as Franco's." On what data, exactly, is this statement based? Did the fact that Spain went through a Civil War before Franco came to power and Portugal didn't have anything to do with the imbalance in the respective numbers of victims?

"This was mostly because Portugal lacked the death penalty." Yeah, right. That never stopped PIDE from killing people. -- Its not at all comparable. Portugal was the first contry in the world to abolish the death penalty. this should tell you something. --BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No, it tells me and everyone else absolutely nothing about what happened a century later.

"Although a dictator and a supporter of Nationalist Spain (the planned rebel leader General Sanjurjo was authorized to fly from a non-military airport in Portugal, and Salazar sent aid to the Nationalists against the Republicans), he did not side with any of the contenders in the war." This seems like a non sequitur to me. What does supporting Nationalist Spain have to do with supporting the sides of WWII? Spain didn't enter WWII, either. -- learn a little history first before shooting blindly. Franco did met Hitler for a possible coalition. Salazar never did the same.

Such coallition never materialized. My point stands.

Portugal was a safe heaven for people (incl. Jews) escaping the War. Spain was not. --BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

For a while, yes, and no thanks to Salazar, whose regime destituted people like Aristides de Sousa Mendes (see Portuguese Wikipedia) for helping Jews escape the Nazis.

"The Iberian neutrality pact was put forward by Salazar to Franco in 1939. Indeed, Salazar provided aid to the Allies, letting them use the Terceira Island in the Azores as a military base." Both Spain and Portugal, however, supported the Nazis as well as the Allies, and were clearly sympathetic to Nazi Germany for a while, until Germany started losing the war (at which point both regimes turned coats). See, for instance, http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp6.html, http://www.adl.org/Braun/dim_14_1_neutrality_europe.asp, The article should make the double game of the two regimes clear. An dedicated article for that -- YES. This one -- NO. --BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

To pretend that Spain and Portugal were unambiguously with the Allies from the onset of the War is misleading.

     ---According to Hitchcock "The Struggle  For Europe" p. 278 - "Portugal remained neutral, though it was obliged by a previous treaty to allow British use of the Azores Islands." I don't know any more than that, but it adds a wrinkle to the phrase "provided aid to the Allies."

- There is and was an old treaty of mutual assistance dating back from the Napoleonic invasions or earlier. but it did not provide for any specific obligation to make this or that facilities available. Anyway the Terceira base was ceded to the US, which still uses this (a curiosity -- the pre-launch of the Iraq war was announced in that base by Bush & Blair in march 2003. BR --BBird 21:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

"Economically, the Salazar years were marked by immensely increased growth, from 1950 until his death, Portugal saw its GDP per capita rise at an average rate of 5.66% per year. This made it the second fastest growing economy in Europe behind Francisco Franco's Spanish Miracle." Economic growth is all very fine and good for the upper classes, but it should be contrasted with the appalling poverty of the majority of the Portuguese and their colonial subjects overseas during the Estado Novo. -- this is pure bs and demgogic crap. GDP growth shows improvement in living conditions. of course it does. --BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence to back that dismissal of yours, or is it just "pure bs and demgogic crap"?

"Maybe due to its own rural origin, Salazar resisted to full scale industrialization, seeing it as a threat to rural values and communities." Or maybe it was because he saw it as a threat to the power of the small oligarchy which ran the country. Dec. 23 2005 -- uninformed speculation.--BBird 16:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, saying that "Salazar resisted to full scale industrialization, seeing it as a threat to rural values and communities" is indeed "uninformed speculation". It should be removed from the article. Dec. 28 2005

[edit] Economic Section

The last part of the article, about the Portuguese economy, is too much simplistic and factually wrong. Ironically, the last days of Salzar are considered the golden age of the Portuguese economy. I have made two essays about the evolution of the Portuguese economy since 1910 and, therefore, I know more or less what I am talking about.

Portugal's golden age? That's a very enthusiastic description that will require extensive proof by outside sources and references. Also, in Salazar's last days, Portugal's economy was being progressively crippled by the colonial war. Furthermore, Portugal's performance has to be compared to the performance of other Western European countries over the same period (i.e. after WWII). I really doubt that Portugal can stand the comparison. Luis rib 18:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to The World Economy, by economic historian Angus Maddison, Salazar's Portugal does indeed stand comparison to other contemporary Western European economies. He calculates that from 1913 to 1950 Portugal's GDP per capita grew at a rate of 1.39% per year: average by contemporary West European standards. However, from 1950 to 1973, dates which entirely encompass the regimes of Salazar and Caetano, Portugal saw its GDP per capita rise at an average rate of 5.66% per year. During this period, Portugal was Western Europe's second fastest growing economy, after Spain (which had been undergoing an "economic miracle" since 1959).

This very enthusiastic description is the very same description that can be found in any essay on the Portuguese economy in the 60's. In 1968, the Portuguese PIB per capita grew almost 11% and in 1973 it almost reached 12% - never after it reached such growth levels. Besides, it was in the 60's that modern industrialisation effectively began, with the opening of the economy to the outside world and the first massive influxes of foreign investment. It was effectively Portugal's Golden Age, as far as available data concerns. --MiguelFC 20:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to Disagree with the statement that the page is too pro-Salazar. I think it is mostly descriptive and nuetral, with the exception of the claim that Salazar admired Hitler. This I find a bit of a stretch. It is important to remember that Salazar was very catholic, while Nazism was essentially pagan and anti-catholic. Salazar made accomodations with the Germans more than likely because he had to, rather than wanted to. He also allowed the allies to use bases in the azores, and continued to operate under the historic military treaty with England. Both Salazar and Franco had quite a tightrope to walk in order to keep their countries out of the conflict, and that tightrope walk made necessary many strange contortions.

I find also the representation of Salazar in contemporary Portugal to be too poltiically flavored to be taken as objective. Especialy as most of those who held power in the aftermath of the carnation revolution are still alive- notably Soares. The fact of the matter is that Salazar, though distasteful to modern eyes, did accomplish a few worthwile things while in office. He was aslo responsible for a caountry whose backwardness and exposure to international financial markets where quite extreme. Hade he retired in 1945 he would likely be regarded as a rather heroic figure. Unfortunately for him and Portugal, he outlived his usefulness. However, he is a character that is neither black or white, but rather gray. "As a Portuguese" I am afraid that the previous writer has swallowed the modern representation of salazar, perhaps a little too completely. It is important to note that often Salazar is used to cover up the crimes or errors of the post-revolutionary figures. None of whom covered themselves with glory, particularly during decolonization.

[edit] Removal of TRIVIA

I deleted the Trivia segment because it was POV, even subtle - but it did seem anti-Salazar and there was no source to the quote nor has it ever been stated around Portugal, being a Portuguese native myself. Also I cannot see why this article would need a trivia section, especially seeing as there was simply one small sentence denoting to the fact of an old country woman without any sources. Piecraft 19:30, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi, the story of the old woman is depicted in a book by Portuguese author and journalist Fernando Dacosta; sorry, can't remember the title (he has a few on the subject) and I think - but not sure - that even Caetano tells the story in his Memoirs.

In my opinion, a "Trivia" section - whatever the name is - could have factoids like Salazar's nicknames (e.g. Botas, because of his orthopedic boots), the "The rules of Protocol not even God can change", etc. I don't think they're POV and certainly that wasn't my intention when I created it.

Ricardo monteiro 16:14, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Salazar and Hitler

Just a brief contribution for now, before I provide a more considered view of Salazar's early years (prior to WWII). Salazar loathed Hitler, whom he believed to be an anti-Catholic pagan who glorified the State. Whilst not wishing to become directly involved in WWII, Salazar actively preferred the Allies, and even offered them preferential trade deals on Wolfram and even granted the Americans use of the Azores archipelago as a military supply base: the Americans are still there now, with the Lajes base. At the time, the Portuguese regime recognised that the survival of its colonies and overseas possessions depended on both continued Spanish neutrality, and British naval protection.

Stewart Lloyd-Jones Director Contemporary Portuguese History Research Centre

I'm sorry Stewart Lloyd-Jones but you are grossly misinformed. Salazar's hero was Mussolini, and he was in very good relations with Hitler - thus the purpose Hitler even gave him a Mercedes limo as a gift for the commercial ties Portugal continued with Germany. Salazar wasn't stupid, simply cautious - this was why he helped the American as well - but continued at all times with neutrality between the opposing countries. But let's not beat around the bush, Salazar was a Fascist, and believed in the ideology, not only that but he also agreed with the principles and ideas shed by Mussolini along with Hitler. This is straight from the sourced - a Portuguese descendant of the Chief who was in command of the Pide - and a freind of Salazar's. 82.155.1.151 01:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Maybe yourfriends grandfather was admirer of Hitler (and there was a germanist faction in the regime, of course, as weel as anglophile). Salazar was not personaly admirer of Hitler nor Mussolini. Check history sources publicly available (inlcluding the foreign ministry archives).--BBird 10:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

If I remember right, I've read somewhere that prior to Hitlers confirmed death, Salazar publicly mourned his death, I even think national flag was in mid pole. Can anyone confirm this?

I think this is correct. This is a good point to show that Slazar rigid approach to rules sometimes played against him and his real options or convictions. asaik -- (i) (Nazi) Germany had diplomatic relations with Portugal, as a neutral country; (ii) Hitler died (rather comited suicide) days before German surrender -- Formaly a head of state with diplomatic relations with Portugal died, and the rules dictate(d) that is such case a formal mourning was to be taken. This is what he dis. An opportunist with never do that. Someone rigid about rules and formality would. --BBird 22:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

You're making no sense, Salazar was an admirer of Hitler in certain aspects - not in the Nazi ideology but in Hitler's dream for a better Germany. Of course if anything Salazar mostly admired and respected Mussolini because of his Fascist vision. So far you have only proven yourself to be a hypocrite by stating he did not admire Hitler and then post some quotation detailing how he mourned his death. I think you need to get your facts straight. 82.155.82.215 19:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

To be frank I dont care much. the question is not of mouring or not. nobody in his right mind would support hitler when he was encircled by russians troops and comiting suicide. My oppinion and from what I read is that he was not an admirer of hitler in any way. --BBird 00:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

In respect to this article I have to say there are several inaccuracies of Salazar's belief which have been misrepresented by "false" scholars who are bent on creating Salazar into some evil dictator who was obsessed with the Church. Yes he was a follower of the Church but did not impose it, and yes he admired Hitler, but did not support his war. Even to this day those who supported Salazar continue to state that Hitler was a form of inspiration. Of course the major contributor was Mussolini. And it is wrong for this article to say that Salazar never stated he was fascist, he in fact spoke and declared himself a fervent supporter and follower of the ideology, not to mention the fact that the entire Portuguese system corresponded in the same respect as Mussolini's Italy - with only a few differences. Anyway I'm not going to bust chops too much seeing as this is afterall a Wikipedia article and therefore mostly inaccurate even with the references, which are mostly provided by anti-Salazarians. 87.80.126.226 20:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marshall Plan

The article categorically states that Salazar refused financial aid from the Marshall Plan while this is definetely not true. Although Portugal did not receive any aid in the program's first and second phases (which were mostly destined at the countries which were directly ravaged by the war), it did receive almost 70 million dollars in the program's third phase (early 1950's). --MiguelFC 17:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is true! Portugal has received some Marshall Plan help, mainly technical agriculture improvements, such as hybrid seeds.

I'll edit the article then. --MiguelFC 11:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV introduction (dictator)?

If it is POV to call Joseph stalin a dictator(as some editors think) then most likely it is also POV to call Salazar a dictator.--Staberinde 16:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)