Talk:Answers in Genesis

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Archive to January 2006

Archive to March 2006

[edit] Lead vs. History inconsistency

The History section now contradicts the lead paragraphs. I assume the former is correct, and the latter is simply "lagging behind", but I'll leave it to someone more familiar with the details to fix it, lest I inadvertently introduce some further inaccuracy. Alai 00:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creation Ministries International

Does anyone know what is going on with the name? The Canadian office of AiG has replaced its sign with "Creation Ministries International". This site describes CMI as doing all the same things that AiG is doing, including publishing 'Creation' magazine. DJ Clayworth 13:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Due to irreconcilable differences in opinion over certain operating procedures, AiG and AiG International (Australia) split. The parent organisation became CMI. Per the article: In February 2006, Answers in Genesis USA became independent (together with the UK office), retaining the brand name and the website. The Australian office, along with the Canadian, New Zealand and South African branches, rebranded as Creation Ministries International. CMI continues the publication of Creation and Journal of Creation and now has a website under that name. Answers in Genesis publishes books and multimedia resources, as well as a website featuring articles and papers. In June 2006 Answers in Genesis is launching an American alternative to CMI's Creation Magazine, named Creation Answers. It will no longer be distributing the former magazine in America. Answers in Genesis is also expanding into the non-English speaking world with translations and outreach ministry. look here tooPrometheusX303 17:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Answers in Genesis was an umbrella organization for organizations based in Australia, the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa. The United States group split off from the rest and appropriated rights to the name and domain name (from the Australian group). The remaining groups have changed their names to Creation Ministries International. For more, see my blog. Lippard 02:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dawkins Interview Consensus?

Hey! Have we finally come to a consensus on the Dawkins section? standonbible 14:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refutation of AiG inline

  • User:Robindch: the cite I requested was for the argument itself, not the facts of the argument. Wikipedia policy states that it is not permitted to refute a position without providing a 3rd party source for that refutation. Please take a look at points 5 and 6 of WP:Original Research#What is excluded?. While I don't dispute the accuracy of your argument, WP doesn't allow it. Ashmoo 23:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • User:Ashmoo: can you tell me exactly what citation is appropriate here in place of the one that I've added? As you're no doubt aware, Ham, along with most creationists, claims that Stalin accepted evolution and that he derived his evil from it. Both claims are untrue, as Stalin rejected evolution for political reasons, and promoted the opposing theory of Lamarck, through his support for Lysenko. Robindch 16:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • We shouldn't even be getting into 'refuting' an organisation's views while we are in the process of describing them, with or without a cite. Counterarguments belong in the appropriate section. Our purpose here is to describe what AiG believes, not why we think it is wrong. User:DJ Clayworth 16:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Fair 'nuf. I've removed that section and inserted it into the 'criticisms' section, together with one other sentence which refutes further false allegations from AiG. Robindch 18:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • The text I've added is neither original nor unverified research, as the conclusion I write is contained within the Wikipedia entry on Lysenko to which I've already linked. Removing my recent edits from the 'criticisms' section (added there as DJ suggested, and you agreed), would also logically require the removal of the remainder of the section's text, together with chunks from 'Controversy over interview with Richard Dawkins', 'Definitions, probability and natural selection', 'The Creation Museum' and elsewhere. To do so would reduce the page to being a facsimile of the AiG website which would be useful for nobody. Robindch 23:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please take a look at points 5 and 6 of WP:Original Research#What is excluded?. Unless a citeable 3rd party has refuted AiG's claims regarding Evolution and Communism by invoking Lysenko, it counts as WP:Original Research. The Richard Dawkins section rightly attributes any criticism to Aust Skeptics.
Having another look through the 'Definitions, prob...' section, it seems like it suffers from unsourced comments too. I'll look into it. Ashmoo 23:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Added a citable 3rd party which refutes the claim that Stalin accepted evolution. Robindch 01:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I hate to be a pain about this, but the cite provided is about 'Evolution and Chance', not 'Evolution and Communism'. The cite must make the assertion that it is supposedly supporting, not just mention it tangentially.
The give-away in the sentence is the phrase 'AiG's claim ... is rejected since...' . Who rejects it? If you can't say who, it is OR. Ashmoo 02:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Ashmoo. To say "it is rejected" is POV since it assumes the point-of-view of those who disagree with AiG. The same applies to the paragraph immediately after the Stalin one. I was about to remove them but I'll wait and see if someone can find an attribution or a cite. DJ Clayworth 15:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Added link to the author of 3rd party article which refutes the claim that Stalin accepted evolution. (note to Ashmoo + DJ: the refutation is contained within the article text, not the article title). BTW, it is neither OR, nor a point-of-view that Stalin rejected evolution, but a point-of-historical-fact. Robindch 21:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Lamarkism is a form of evolution, so the question is between Darwinian evolution (which says the main driver of evolution is replication & natural selection) and Lamarkian evolution (which says the main driver is inheritence of acquired traits). Stalin didn't reject evolution, he rejected Darwinian evolution, is favour of pseudo-Lamarkian evolution.
  • AiG claims Stalin's support for Darwin directly resulted in "oppression, self glorification, atheism and murder"[1] and that "Hitler was wrong. Stalin was wrong. Darwin’s theory, upon which those tyrants based their actions, was wrong, too."[2]). 3rd party citation on TO states that Stalin did not support Darwin but Lamarck. As you correctly point out, Lamarckism and Darwinism are different. Hence the AiG claim is refuted and may therefore legitimately be included in the 'criticism' section as it stands. Robindch 00:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The talkorigins source provided says that Stalin rejected 'Darwinism', not evolution. I think we need to get this sorted out before we can productively continue.Ashmoo 23:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't believe that anybody interprets 'Darwinism' as meaning anything other than 'Darwinian Evolution', so I think it's quite clear what the author claims Stalin was rejecting.
Also, the links to John Wilkin's site point to his homepage. Did you have a specific article in mind? As it is unclear what point it is supposed to support. Ashmoo 00:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I linked to answer your query "Who rejects it? If you can't say who, it is OR". The link contains a reference to a page which references the page on TO, confirming that JW is indeed the author and that the refutation therefore originates from a reputable source, as you also requested earlier on.
(a) Unfortunately, taking the AiG quotes and the TalkOrigins quotes and synthesising them to show that AiG is wrong counts as Original Research (not incorrect, just OR). You need to provide a cite for someone who specifically states: 'AiG is wrong about Stalin supporting evolution'. Not just that 'Stalin didn't support Darwinism', but that 'AiG is incorrect in asserting that Stalin supported Darwinism'. Ashmoo 01:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
(b) Concerning the John Wilkins cites: The article no longer says 'is rejected' so my previous comment is no longer relevant. Unfortunately, it now says 'modern historians', and Wilkins isn't a historian. Ashmoo 01:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
(c) And 'Darwinism' means 'Darwinian evolution'. But 'evolution' doesn't necessarily mean 'Darwinian evolution'. It could also mean 'Lamarkian Evolution'. And it is a POV to say that Stalin rejected evolution. Many would argue that he rejected 'Darwinian evolution' but not 'Lamarkian evolution'. Ashmoo 03:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  • (a) AiG claims X, based upon Y. JW claims Y is false. It is not synthesis to cite JW's claim to Y's falsity as constituting a refutation of X. (b) JW's homepage, referred to above, quotes him as having recently completed a PhD in the department of History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne, from which we can conclude that JW can be counted as a modern historian. (c) As before, in current usage, evolution alone refers to Darwinian Evolution alone (see the second para of the WikiPedia entry [3] which makes this clear). Thanks for your help in getting this tricky topic sorted out. Robindch 15:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick note, before I get onto the main points. Editing other people's comments on talk pages, even if it is for formatting and readability is considered poor form, as it makes it appear as if the original editor wrote things in a way that they didn't. Not a big issue, but I thought it did need to be said. Ashmoo 22:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
(a) This is exactly what the no synthesis rule is supposed to stop. Please seeWP:OR#Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. ie. AiG said A, Wilkins said B, therefore C (AiG wrong) (b) I can accept this. (c) Yes, 'evolution' generally means 'D. evolution' but when we are directly comparing Darwinian evolution and Lamarkian evolution we can't then assume or use 'evolution' as a shorthand for Darwinism. The fact that we are arguing about intrepretations of the source material, shows, IMO, that this whole bit is Original Research.
More generally, talkorigins has published hundred of refutations of AiG positions and articles, to focus on one of the few things they haven't explicitly debunked seems odd. Wouldn't it be better to include direct criticisms that they've made, thus avoiding any OR challenges from me, and more importantly, all the editors who come after me? Regards, Ashmoo 22:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  • (a) Sentence reworded to remove faintest whiff of OR and primary source quotation added. (c) Darwinian Evolution explicitly named in text, to avoid any possibility of confusion. Thanks again for your help in clarifying this. Robindch 10:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for article

You've got an article on Islamic creationism. It's also the opinion of many orthodox Jews that the literal reading of Genesis on this subject must inherently be correct, & it would be appropriate to have an article on the subject, because almosty everything written by them is in Hebrew (and I cannot help, for i cannot read it)DGG 04:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Jewish creationism may be what you are looking for. --ScienceApologist 12:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and POV flag on Biblical literalism

and i call your attention to a POV flag I have placed on Biblical literalism, which to my surprise consisted of a non-neutral lead , and a secition arguments against, and nothing else. I recognize that those here may be tired of fighting all the hostile pages, and that the view as seems to be expressed there may not be what all of you hold, but the article now says that nobody holds the position and tha no argument can p[ossibly be made. DGG 00:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from article

Answers in Genesis seems to display a hypocritical position on the subject of slavery. While encouraging a literal interpretation of the bible it ignores Leviticus 25:44 - “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life.” Answers in Genesis does not endorse slavery despite their literal interpretation of the Bible.

I don't think this is appropriate - after all, do they endorse stoning, genocide, giving your daughters up to be raped... Guettarda 02:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The argument is a false one. AIG takes great pains to differentiate between a literal interpretation and a "plain or straightforward" one. Prometheus-X303- 14:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I also agree that this passage is inappropriate. Some editor thinks they should be supporting slavery, based on what he understands as their views; Wikipedia should not be taking that position. Especially without a cite. DJ Clayworth 17:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is it inappropriate... AIG does indeed state that every word (including And, The, To, From, etc) is truthful and the "Exact" statement of God. Leviticus does indeed state that its ok to have slaves, yet AIG says Slavery is wrong. Also, this whole article reads like an Advertisement for AIG. Magnum Serpentine 19:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC) (Forgot to log in the first time)

[edit] Death and Suffering

As recorded in that section AiG's views are indistinguishable from virtually every other evangelical Christian organisation, Young Earther or otherwise. The viewpoint isn't relevant to Young Earth. Why are we noting it? DJ Clayworth 15:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Three weeks later, I've removed the section. DJ Clayworth 04:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence needing citation

I removed from the Evolution and Race section the sentence "AiG does not point out that these beliefs were widespread within society at the time and were actively supported by many religious organizations, as well as a number of politically-motivated scientific ones" since I was unable to find a citation. If someone else can find one I'd appreciate it. JoshuaZ 16:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial Ambiguity

The following paragraph in the "Definitions, probability, and natural selection" is rather ambigious, contains incorrect statements, and generally needs some work:

Answers in Genesis has written a number of articles about natural selection.[1] They state that "...It cannot be stressed enough that what natural selection actually does is get rid of information.", citing one example of natural selection removing genes for short fur in cold climates.[2] This view is not shared by the mainstream scientific community, which holds that mechanisms such as gene duplication and polyploidy are examples where new information is available for the selection of new functions. On the other hand, Answers in Genesis claims that polyploidy and gene duplication do not constitute new information, just a duplication of information that was already there.[3]

Here's the problem. The mainstream scientific community does share the view that natural selection removes information - this is how it can "select" more promising characteristics. The scientific community holds that gene dupl. and polyploidy provide new information that natural selection "chooses" by removing other less beneficial genes. For example, if a creature with nonretractable claws had a mutation that created a retraction mechanism, the population without the mutation would be slowly removed until only the "retraction" mutation survived. Answers in Genesis denies that such positive-change mutations actually take place.

So, I propose the following changes:

Answers in Genesis has written a number of articles about natural selection.[4] They state that "...It cannot be stressed enough that what natural selection actually does is get rid of information.", citing one example of natural selection removing genes for short fur in cold climates.[5] Although it is true that natural selection only removes unnecessary or inferior information, the mainstream scientific community holds that mechanisms such as gene duplication and polyploidy (see mutations) provide new information that can be "selected" by the removal of older information by natural selection. Answers in Genesis denies that such mutations can provide new, usable information, alleging that mutations only duplicate existing information.[6]

Overall I think it is a big improvement. The reader comes away less confused and has a better understanding of what the whole thing's about. standonbibleTalk! 23:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This isn't correct. Natural selection does not remove information necessarily. --ScienceApologist 01:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I must beg to differ; can you give me an example of natural selection not removing information? If you insist we can change it to "natural selection removes" rather than "natural selection only removes". standonbibleTalk! 03:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a creationist straw man argument and your challenge is meant to draw me into a debate which is beyond the scope of this talkpage. The idea of information being removed or gained is a creationist artiface set-up to discuss the creationist ill-conceived "information science" idealization of how natural processes are "fallen" and "degenerative". However, the scientific mainstream does not make any statements regarding information and natural selection, so to say otherwise is highly misleading. The onus is on you to show that there are statements in standard scientific texts or papers that indicate that mainstream scientists agree with your characterization. --ScienceApologist 03:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
David D. wrote an excellent edit that fixed the problems with the paragraph. However, I would thank ScienceApologist to observe WP:AGF and not allege that I am trying to "draw [you] into a debate". Do not be so quick to label others, SA.
My proposed statements were paraphrased from the stable natural selection article, SA. According to that article, natural selection is the process by which more favorable genetic traits are passed on (i.e., the less favorable ones are removed). Thankfully, David's edit made such a clarification pretty much unnecessary. I do not intend to draw you into a debate nor was I making unsourced statements; if anything the statement that "this view is not shared by..." was entirely unsourced - the whole problem was that the immediate reference to mutations made it unclear exactly what view was not shared.
It is true that natural selection's relative lack of power regarding the introduction of new genetic traits can be used as a straw man argument - mainstream science banks not on natural selection but on mutations for the introduction of new genetic traits. But if you had taken the time to examine closely what I said, you would see that I was not attacking your sacred theory (not that it's your theory, just that it's sacred to you) - just making a distinction for the benefit of the reader. Some editors are so quick to throw AGF out the window whenever a sincere creationist editor mentions evolution or natural selection.
Oh, and if I wanted to draw you into a debate, I would do so by politely inviting you to join a discussion on my Talk page. standonbibleTalk! 04:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Natural selection removing information is a misconception of the process as a whole. The two sentences you had written were factually wrong. For example, a simple scenario might be after a gene duplication one gene maintains its historical function (such as photolyase that repairs DNA in response to UV light) the second reversion is mutated to aquire a new function (second photolyase gene loses its lyase activity but aquires a new function as a blue light receptor cryptochrome). So, natural selection has favoured organisms with both genes. Nothing is lost, a new function is acquired. This is the very thing that AiG says cannot happen. David D. (Talk) 04:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In the example you gave above, AiG would say that the genetic code that lacked the new gene would be selected out. AiG would say that the aquisition of the new blue light receptor function would be impossible. It's really based on your way of looking at things (whether organisms with new genetic traits are "selected" or organisms without the traits are "removed") but the current version resolves the conflict beautifully. standonbibleTalk! 04:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Natural selection neither increases nor removes "information" - from an information theory perspective it reduces uncertainty (by favouring one genotype over others) and thus increases information. Another way of looking at it is that natural selection improves fit between phenotype and environment, thus it reduces noise, strengthens signal - and thus, increases information. Guettarda 04:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
You can say that. Or you can say that natural selection, by favoring one genotye over another, decreases information by removing defective or lacking genetic codes from the population gene pool. It's two ways of saying the same thing. Natural selection is the process by which positive genotype proliferate throughout a population (increase) - organisms without the genotype are less likely to pass on their genes and thus the complete genetic codes that lack new traits are removed from the population (decrease). standonbibleTalk! 04:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"You can say that" - no, you "said that". You were talking about information. Now if you are talking about genetic diversity, that's a different matter. But it still isn't correct to say that natural selection "reduces genetic diversity". It can reduce it, or it can increase it. It's wrong to say that "[n]atural selection is the process by which positive genotype proliferate throughout a population (increase)". Natural selection can act to increase or decrease allele frequencies. There's no assumption that selection will bring a certain genotype to fixation - selection is not a single-axis function, it acts in multi-dimensional space. Natural selection does not move towards any single optimum, but rather, towards local optima. Natural selection can increase the frequency of a rare allele, making it less likely to go extinct. That would increase the genetic diversity of a population. In addition, certain genotypes may only be favoured when they are rare, while others may be selected against when they are common - for example, if a mutation converts a pseudogene to an expressed product, natural selection can act to increase the frequency of this new allele, incrementing the number of expressed genes in the population. Similarly, if a mutation produces a new allele of an existing gene, natural selection can make the gene more frequent in the population. It is not a given that the new allele would go to fixation in the population - stable polymorphisms are common. So it is possible for natural selection to either increase or decrease the genetic diversity in a population. Guettarda 06:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that I'm agreeing with you here. The problem is the way we are referring to natural selection - it is not a force as much as it is the term we use to describe what happens through survival of the fittest. Natural selection cannot add alleles, but it can increase the frequency of a new allele. The point that I was trying to make from the beginning is that natural selection, by itself, has no way to create new genotypes. Like you said, it moves toward a local optima - it mightincrease the frequency of a rare allele, or it might decrease the frequency of a different allele. Natural selection is the proliferation or non-proliferation of alleles in a dynamic population.
The only real change in genetic information that takes place is when a genotype is selected against until it no longer exists - for instance a mutation that provided a new function but left the organism open to bacterial infection. In such cases natural selection removes genetic information from the population. However, it can't actually gain information unless it has new alleles to work with. That was the point I was trying to make - hence "AiG says natural selection only removes information; this is true but mainstream science points to mutations that allow natural selection to add information to a population". The difference is whether we are talking about specific genotypes or overall genetic diversity or the proliferation of a genotype. If we are talking about specific genotypes - natural selection can spread them around through a population but it cannot add new ones. It can only, in some cases, remove old or defective ones. We are saying the same thing two different ways. standonbibleTalk! 12:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New info about the breakup

See here unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a WP:RS. JoshuaZ 00:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be well documented. 58.162.2.122 12:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations of Necrophilia and Satanism

According to this blog one of AIG's founder's John Mackay has accused Ken Ham’s personal secretary Margaret Buchanan of being sent by Satan to undermine the ministry and that Margaret Buchanan had sex with the corpse of her late husband.

Blogs are not considered reliable sources. DJ Clayworth 18:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Lippard's blog is fairly reliable, and in this case it cites sources. Indeed, Ken Ham is one of those who condemned MacKay for this and other slanders, but is now sleazily teaming up with him. 58.162.2.122 12:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Blogs are generally considered unreliable; they're usually not considered on a case by case basis. Unless this is reported elsewhere (i.e. by an organisation or a major news outlet) the information cannot be put into the article. --Davril2020 13:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Some disagreement. Blogs can be considered on a case for case basis but the standard for their inclusion is very high. This does not seem to meet that standard. JoshuaZ 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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