Talk:Anshe Chung

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Anshe Chung should not get this much space in the Wikipedia, since the name doesn't refer to anything in reality, and is just the name of n avatar in an online game that has a small membership and has only been around a few years

Probably right, for now; particularly due to the lack of sources. Merge into Second Life? +sj + 04:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, merge or delete, this feels like a vanity entry created by the company itself, espically with the fierce editwar.

Merge or delete is probably the best option, considering. Doubtful that this entry was created by Linden Lab, more likely by Anshe.

Anshe may be the first or one of the first avatars who financially supports not only her creator but also several employees. That is a remarkable milestone in virtual world history. I also disagree with the statement that there is a lack of sources. Her story has been all over the media, including publications such as Fortune and Business 2.0. She maintains a list on her own site that is quite impressive. I currently can't think of another avatar who achieved similar recognition in the mainstream media. The recent controversy about this article on Wikipedia only adds to the notion that there exists a lot of public interest.

I created the article and I'm not Anshe. I created it because Anshe is listed in several other business directories and is generally considered a milestone of virtual business. The fact that it was Second Life in which she did business is less significant than the fact of the business's success, thus I would oppose a merge. Hyphz 14:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Opposed to Merge, as well: there is no way the reasons applied to this entry to merge/delete will withstand application to other entries for fictional representations of actual things/people. If the title of a book can have an entry, so can the title of a virtual person. If anything, this deserves its own entry more than mention in the article about SL, except in a general way that would include the less-well-known but comparably large-scale, or only the next level of scale, IMHO. 67.81.50.181 14:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to ask that Valery42 please refrain from attempting to re-write the paragraph about Anshe's early career in SL. Valery42 claims that "A person's private life and sexual preferences are not appropriate topics for a Wikipedia entry". My response to that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_prostitutes - this is a page about prostitutes and not escorts, but serves to show that private life and sexual preference already exist in other entries.

Some may object to this early career of Anshe's, but it is "verifiable" through a notecard in SL that has Anshe listed as creator and has pictures of her avatar attached to it (Reference Second Life Notecard "Anshe Chung - female escort" Creation date: 2004-04-18 06:58:28). Additionally, there are many individuals who new Anshe in those early days.

None of these may satisfy verifiability, but I think that applies to the entire entry - not just this paragraph.

It's one thing to place information about sexual life in an article about famous prostitutes, who are only encyclopedic for their sexual life; I don't think it's really relevant to the current notability of this subject. Also, we are, and justifiably so, more careful about putting in unverified and not-really-relevant information about living people that could be harmful, as opposed to that which isn't harmful. Please do not add it without strong and verifiable justification.

Also, please note that reverting continuously may get both parties blocked from editing for edit-warring by the "three-revert rule". If you have disputes about the content, discuss it here, or pursue dispute resolution.

Oh, and FWIW, I support a merge.Mindspillage (spill yours?) 17:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The justification for adding that information is that it was those early careers (including, but not limited to, being an escort) that formed the base for her current empire. It provided the contacts and the money to begin a highly successful career as SL's largest land dealer. This entry is basically a bio about Anshe and I think in that context it is relevant.

I have followed the discussions on the closed Second Life forums that preceded the editing war of this page. They led me to the conclusion that we don't face an attempt to provide relevant information, but another outbreak of jealousy by lesser SL business owners who did not get as far as Anshe did. Their objective is to add as much negativity as possible until it either hurts Anshe's reputation or the whole article gets deleted. As far as I know, her early days in Second Life she spent as an entertainer, before she turned to creating content. This included stuff such as event hosting, teaching, art performances and what she calls "private entertainment". Wether any of that was rated mature I don't consider relevant to this article. It wouldn't surprise me in a mature rated virtual world full of porn. In any case, whatever she did at that time she probably did under the assumption of anonymous roleplay in a closed like minded community. This should be considered when editing an information resource that might be accessed by her family and RL neighbours who in addition may not be able to distinguish between the roleplayed avatar and the creator.

You anonimus idiots feel good about destroying a public individual's reputation .. I wonder where all your skeletons are hidden .. and not just on-line .. Delete the whole thing .. Real people have families and friends .. thay don't need to be slandered this way.

It is not slander if it is true. Imagine all the entries if we were to "sanitize" them so that controversial truths were not included. As far as "Real people have families and friends" - one should have brought that into consideration before entering into that business, not after.

Agreed, yet again. Detailing HOW Anshe made her "rise to the top" of SL is important, if this is to remain a Wiki entry. If Anshe is a celebrity, as was posited in the original delete thread, then she'll have to deal with the negative consequences of her actions and past, a la the Kennedys, Paris Hilton. I myself would rather this whole entry be deleted, and restarted as a entry on the corporation itself, rather than single out one "avatar" as the end-all. It would smack less of vanity that way.

I have protected the page due to the edit war and due to the fact that unsourced derogatory information has been repeatedly added to the article. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you are allowed to post information, but it has to be sourced to somewhat reputable sources.

Here are some examples of reputable sources which have been written about Anshe Chung:

DER SPIEGEL - 17.01.06 Reichtum aus dem Nichts

Financial Times - 13.01.06 When Fantasy becomes Reality

Business 2.0 - 11.28.05 The Virtual Rockefeller

The Second Life Herald - 1.01.06 Avatar of the Year, Second Place: Anshe Chung

Associated Press - 11.21.05 Virtual Trump

Fortune Magazine - 11.28.05 From Megs To Riches

San Antonio Current - 11.10.05 New Economy, Same Rules

Information Week - 11.08.05 Online Virtual World is Part Fantasy, Part Civics Experiment

The Mercury News - 6.25.05 It Pays To Get A Second Life

The New York Times - 5.29.05 The Game Is Virtual. The Profit Is Real

Los Angeles Times - 5.16.05 Virtual Power Brokers

East Bay Express - 3.23.05 Games Without Frontiers

Here is another reputable source, posted by Guni Greenstein, the husband of the husband and wife team:

("husband of the husband and wife team": From what I understand, Anshe Chung is the avatar of Ailin Graef and Guni Greenstein is the avatar of her husband Guntram. They both seem to have a share in the business that has been named after the wife's avatar. It also has been reported that they on occasion use each other's accounts to access business assets tied to those accounts. The article as it stands now might not reflect this accurately. Do we have some sources on this matter? Adam999 06:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC))

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=82750&highlight=guni

At ANSHECHUNG.COM we believe in a Second Life world that is more than an endless random collection of land parcels. We believe in diversity, culture and places worth exploration, while at the same time empowering people to realize their own dreams.

In the new continent of Islandia we are working on a large scale consistent development that will feature different landscapes ranging from very structured areas to wild mountain ranges. As you know we do this within a very tight timeframe and within the constraints of a very competitive land market. However, we are up to the challenge and we are confident that we will be able to provide you an area that will be attractive to both land owners and visitors

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=27199

"my land baron buddies will bash me if they find out who i am. but we barons wanna let the linden drop a lot. not all barons just the cool ones. we r all great buddies. we wanna people get cheap cash to buy up the land we r sitting on. we talked with ige and they are cool and already lowered prices. they get our lindens when we sell land. got a special deal. it is all win-win. way cool. its been decided. linden will drop below 3 bucks so u better cash out fast. yeah i sure want to panik u. but if needed we can use 5 million lindens we put aside to dump on the market. if u cash out fast we can do with dumping less but it will all go way down. u look at the market now. we just played with 300k yesterday. tomorrow is weekend we open the gates and u better run for ur buck. lol. yeah. now u get 3.70. how much u get tomorrow. better sell while u still get some cash. we are the linden money gods now. us rulez!"

Notice the almost deceptive change in posting styles, clearly these people can and are willing to manipulate their online personas.

That second quote is derived from a joke thread. It is a mockery of numerous conspiracy theories that preceded his post. Sadly, some individuals deliberately and repeatedly have tried to misrepresent it as a serious statement. He is manipulating his online persona as much as a cabaretist who imitates Castro is manipulating his real persona.

Anyways, I hope we don't delete this page. I think pretty much everyone will agree that Anshe is a big part of history of the virtual world, a world that is increasingly becoming more important and more recognized (see above) by mainstream press everyday.

Joke thread? If you find it funny trolling the community (if you read that thread, you'll notice that no one else is sharing in 'the joke'), then yes, I guess it is a joke. However, most respectable business people do not engage in such antics.

Anyways, I am mostly pro-anshe / pro-guni, I am just trying to add some facts to this dialogue.

Adam999 .. it is actually against the SL TOS to share accounts, so officially, I doubt you're going to find a lot of sources for this. However, in order to do anything of use in SL you do need to share accounts from time to time again, so it's pretty probable that they do share accounts. I don't think you actually need to say that they do share accounts, but I think it's worthwhile adding that in order to run a business together you would pretty much have to share accounts.

This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Vandalism by

Contents 1 Issues 2 Original author 3 Stubbed 4 Protected 5 Why all the Reversions 6 Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point 6.1 Discussion

[edit] Issues

First of all, Anshe did provide an escort service as part of her Second Life business career, so it is entirely relevant. Secondly, there is not reason not to include information about an individual/corporation if it is factual. Thirdly, this talk section has clearly been edited by a number of people who have not contribued to Wikipedia much before. It is appropriate to use the Plus sign at the top of the page, near the edit this page section, to add comments to a discussion page, not to haphazardly edit with no clear way to follow the discussion.
Xinoph 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

oh ok, well why have an "edit this page" then?

so people can respond to something in the middle of the page, like this67.81.50.181 14:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to reference a credible resource if you wish to say that she was an escort. I think if you dig through the forum archives or new world notes you might find something, however simply saying "this is common knowledge" is rather lazy, wikipedia or not.

I went directly to Anshe and confronted her with the issue. I can only recommend doing the same. She was surprisingly open and easy going about her days as a "private entertainer" and "tea house girl". She seemed to be proud of her roleplaying, even though she said it wasn't in any way relevant to her career or success in Second Life. After listening to her, I believe that using the western terms "prostitute" or "escort" to describe what she did would be misleading, if not insulting. When talking about the actual person behind the computer one could maybe describe it as "interactive storytelling". While refering to the avatar I could imagine the terms "geisha" or indeed "private entertainer" as fitting. Not relevant to the article though. I would still leave it out.

Due to the nature of Second Life, this is both an article on the avatar - the character - and on the business of AnsheChung.com. As part of the biography of the well-known avatar, it certainly should be included: it was how she got her start in the Second Life economy! If a real-life billionaire had made money first as a personal escort, it would be part of the article if it was verifiable. So why should it not be a part of this article? Plus, the money from both that and her content store gave her the capital to begin the real-estate business, so it is directly relevant. I believe the term "escort" would be an appropriate term, and not misleading or insulting: an escort is someone who is paid for their company, whether it is of a sexual nature or not. There are escorts out there who are merely escorts (not prostitutes in hiding) and besides that, there's no reason to think that either term is an insult - especially if both are legal, double especially if both occur in a virtual world. Xinoph | TALK 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original author

As the original article author I feel I should chip in..

• I am not Anshe, nor Linden Lab, nor do I work for either of them.

• I created the article because Anshe is considered an important indicator of the potential for virtual business and has attracted substantial success as a result. I would oppose a merge with Second Life because Anshe's importance lies in the fact she demonstrated real money could be made for virtual goods, not in the fact she succeeded in a particular world.

• Since the page is about the company, not the individual, the comments about having been an escort are not relevant IMHO - she may have been an escort/teacher at one stage, but she wasn't running the company Anshe Chung at that time.

[edit] Stubbed

Due to continuing concern over this page, I have removed most of the unsourced content. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Since there's been edit warring again, I've protected this page for now. Everyone, please be sure you cite reliable sources for the info you put in here. Material from your own personal knowledge or experience, even if true, isn't verifiable and can't be used in an encyclopedia. Also, if there's disagreement, don't just keep reverting. This talk page is for working out disagreements related to article content. Friday (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why all the Reversions

It became obvious That Anshe and her Cohorts were simply using this page as an advertisement for Anshe's Business. It is totally Irrevelent how many areas she owns, Other services where she buys and sells other line currency. This was totally irrevelant. There are also many negative facts that have surfaced that are just as relevant as the positive ones. I recommend that only SYSOPS be allowed to edit this page for the next month or so. This should clear up a lot of things.

EDIT: Normally This Wouldnt bother me but AndreasZander is trying to say I added information to make anshe look bad, In fact I did not add anything, BUT TOOK OUT information that was advertizing and obviously put there for no other reason to advertize or spread gossip. AndreasZander is not a registered user in Second life, It should also be known that although I do participate in SL and have been there a long time. I do NOT use the name Bovar Bellow in second life. It should also be stated that like most of Second Lifes participants, I do not participate(post)in the Second Life forums either. AndreasZander is entitled to his opinions but please dont blame me for posting negative things about Anshe. They were here a long time before I showed up. I would still like to recommend that this page remain SYSOP only edit only, or Merged into the SECOND Life Page.

It should also be noted that I only started editing this page a couple of weeks ago, NOT a couple of months ago. ________________________________________________________________

AndreasZander ______ Bovarbellow is an individual who, since two months, is trying to get this page deleted or turned into something that makes Anshe look bad. This becomes quite obvious to anyone who takes the time to review his edit history on wikipedia. During all this time he has not added any relevant information whatsoever, but numerous insults and unsourced evaluations of her person. I am not Anshe nor a "cohort", but I respect her. I agree with the locking of the entry and hope that now some SYSOPS will perform real research and add sourced and balanced information to the article.

By chance I know who posted the article in the first place. He is a direct competitor of Anshe in the Second Life land market. This once more invalidates Bovarbellow's claims and shows us that somebody is here to throw mud. AndreasZander 08:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point