Talk:Anomalous phenomenon

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[edit] Recent changes

I added quite a bit to the article in a recent edit. Sorry if this bothers anyone. I felt the article was seriously lacking in any real information about anomalies and appeared to be more just a list of "See also". I feel the new version more accurately describes anomalous phenomena as the proverbial glitch in the matrix without it being "all about" the paranormal. Cheers. --Nealparr 08:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

These recent additions to content make a strong, positive difference in the quality of this article, which is much appreciated! Cynthia Sue Larson 16:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Since the authorship of wiki articles is collaborative, it's sometimes hard to find kudos. I appreciate the appreciation. --Nealparr 18:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Someone has suggested a merge with paranormal. Although there are differences I do wonder if they are enough to justify two entries so I am not bothered either way - I'll go with the majority decision. If this is kept separate then this section needs rewriting as per my suggestions above - I'm prepared to expad on it in my sandbox and then we can all edit it up into a form we are happy with. (Emperor 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC))

I've done a bit of consulation on this and have changed my vote from undecided to keep -anomalous phenomena is analgous to Forteana (and I wouldn't object to a move to that entry - we currently have Paranormal and a Forteana categories so this would clarify matters) and deals with the damned data. In most cases facts that don't comfortably fit in with the current worldview. So we can calss ice falls, ball lightning, etc., etc. in this category but ghosts under paranormal. If kept though it needs to be completely redone to make sure the focus of the entry is clear as I suspect it has suffered "creep" with more examples being dropped in which has made it appear to be similar to the Paranormal whereas there are worthy distinctions between them. As mentioned I'll be happy to start an example in my sandbox which we can kick around and agree upon first (Emperor 19:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC))

It used to be merged with paranormal (around a year ago) and it was an organizational mess. People looking for paranormal information had to wade through tons of non-paranormal stuff and vice versa. There was a reason they separated it. If things were merged again, it would just end up having to be un-merged at some point in the future, so why bother? If merged into paranormal, I would definitely like to see a lot of reduction in content. Especially in links and examples. Less is more.--Nealparr 13:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree - anomalous phenomena includes strange finds (like out of place objects), fringe science and other unexplained events. The Paranormal might be one suggested solution to anomalous phenomena but equally it could be that it is down to fakery or things that have yet to be included within maintream science. So this definitely needs trimming down. I'd be happy to mock up something in my sandbox to help move things forward. (Emperor 17:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Paranormal and this article are not the same thing

Although Paranormal (used to) redirects to this article, the two are not the same thing. There can be a genuine anomalous phenomenon that isn't paranormal. And things deemed paranormal are not necessarily a phenomenon. Bubba73 (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Right. Ball lightning, for instance, is very well attested, but not easy to explain. If it is really lightning, i.e., the movement of a large number of electrons from one charged body to another body with an different potential, then a ball of lightning would presumably be a large number of electrons that clump together, that cohere, and that persist in that state for seconds or minutes. However, electrons in all known circumstances repel each other rather than cohering, so one would expect that a "ball" of electrons would immediately disperse were it not held together by some external force.

Why isn't ball lightning mentioned in this article? P0M 07:43, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

This was my thought. Instead of listing inexplicable phenomena known to exist this article seems to only list phenomena whose existence is doubted.

There should be a discussion of some of the 'Black Boxes' in scientific theories. "Where is the dark matter?" "How can an animal evolve extra chromosomes?" "What use is gender?" "How can gravity move faster than light?" "How could altruism evolve?".

As well, the history of how some inexplicable phenomena were explained would be useful: Biologists couldn't explain how bumblebees could fly. Physicists couldn't explain how light moved through a vacuum. Chemists couldn't explain why elements could exist in a number of different weights.

A clarification of the history of scientific mysteries would be a lot more useful in looking at a difference between fringe science and pseudo-science than a list of non-verified paranormal claims.

David Cheater 07:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

My first sorting attempt (pro merging argument) was argued by the inclusive definitions the definitions of the articles. It was like: "Paranormal includes all Pseudoscience includes all Anomalous phenomenon" (but thats wrong, generally speaking, and was based on ya too narrow definition for pseudoscience). The problem is that the articles lack in exclusive "what they are not" definitions and if those are valid. Discussion goes to Wikiproject_Paranormal sorting and definition --Ollj 11:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous commnets

You have out of body experiences and near death experiences listed seperately to mental phenomena, I can't see why, OBE's, if they existed, would clearly be mental phenomena in the sense of the category.

Perhaps anomalous phenomena is a misnomer. The advocates assert that natural explanations in terms of observer error, unusual optical reflections, etc. are inadmissable. In their stead, theories which run counter to conventional science are asserted with little evidence.

IMHO, the above is unclear, but could and should be re-moved to the main page after it's expanded. I can't tell whether it's a meta-comment (about the choice of the name of the article) or a comment about, e.g., parapsychologists. Who are the "advocates" here (what do they advocate for)? Also "theories" about what, and who is asserting them? In short, is this what you mean?--

Some skeptics hold that anomalous phenomena is a misnomer, because this implies that there are real phenomena under study. Those who believe there are real phenomena to study--parapsychologists, for example--are said to assert that natural explanations of alleged "paranormal" phenomena cannot be explained in terms of observer error, unusual optical reflections, etc. Instead of these natural explanations, the parapsychologists (and others) advance theories that, skeptics maintain, run counter to conventional science and are supported by little evidence.

If that's what you mean, there must be a simpler way to say it. :-)

Was not Quantum Physics, and even The Chaos Theory, during initial postulation rejected by mainstream scientists as a sort of "pseudoscience?" It would seem to me that a discussion on Anomalous Phenomena and pseudoscience, any articles that expand upon these, might not be complete without inclusion of fields previously included in these categories, but is no longer labeled such. -Invictus

I wouldn't say so. Quantum physics met with a lot of resistance, but because the theory itself is unusual - the effects it explains were well-known at the time. Chaos theory is mathematics, so the question was whether the theory applied to the real world. In this case, it's not clear that there are effects or a theory to work with.

I'd say so, if what you say is true. What better person to make the change than you? --LS :-)

Apparently, either there are phenomena, or there is merely coincidence. A large enough body of regularly observed coincidence (as the case of "Audie Murphy," or the family relative whom each of us has who can always tell you when the phone is about to ring) will be finally expressed by the casual observer as a discrete phenomenon. If we are to take the position that there are no anomalous phenomena, then we should replace the page with "coincincidences, misperceptions and frauds." Otherwise "phenomena" is as good a tag as anything.

I believe the reference should be to Bridey Murphy, and not Audie Murphy, the WWII hero. Eclecticology 06:40 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)

Let us take for example the practice of johrei, as practiced by the Johrei Fellowship, AKA Church of World Messianity. Here a practicioner, according to the tenets of the faith, wears a Chinese character in a pouch about his neck which serves to help attract a universal divine light. In an effort to alleviate the suffering of an afflicted person, he assumes a meditative mindset and holds his hand near the affected portion of that person's body, palm-facing, and "channels divine light" toward the area. Persons so ministered to frequently go through episodes of coughing or shivering, speak of warmth, tingling in the area, etc., and walk away (subjectively, at least) improved.

Skeptics will say "hogwash" or "placebo effect" or "fraud" (never mind that there is no financial incentive to perpetrate such a fraud) or whatever. But there will be a body of people who say - "This is a part of my life experience." That much, at least, I think qualifies the obervation as a "phenomenon." Certainly, there is no scientific physical explanation for what these people experience. That would probably qualify it as "anomalous." So, perhaps the page, category, or whatever is aptly named.

Shouldn't there be a page for the above? lysdexia 23:25, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And there are, to be sure, any number of claimed experiences or observations for which there is no reliable evidence that they ever even happened. Do these rise to the level of "phenomena?" Perhaps not. To be on the safe side, our discussions of phenomena might do well to start out with things for which there is at least some credible corroboration that at least some event really occurred.

I agree that conspiracy theories are not themselves anomalous phenomena; the purported conspiracies would normally allege explanations that are consistent with mainstream science. The activities may be illegal or depend on irrational behaviour, but the entire chain of events is conceivable without any departure from accepted science. Nevertheless, such theories are often proposed as explanations for otherwise unexplainable phenomena. Eclecticology 06:40 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Science and anomalous phenomena

In the section "Definition," the following graf ...

There are also many cases in which no theory explains observations and no scientist can be found to make theories for them, since there is no proof of the observation in the first place. For instance, science has no interest in making theories where flying saucers come from, since there is no proof that these 'flying saucers' exist in the first place. The same is true for the paranormal. Until it is proven that paranormal effects truly exist, there is no need for an explanation of them.

... doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't fit as a definition, and it doesn't seem to add any meaning to the overall article. Besides, there are plenty of scientists who study the paranormal. For instance, understanding paranormal beliefs is a key area of study for cultural anthropologists. Unless someone strongly objects, I'm going to delete this paragraph.

Delete it again, since science doesn't deal with proof but with founding. lysdexia 23:25, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] paranormal investigator

I'm going to remove this note for the time being, since there are anomalies in other fields of study (such as physics and biology), and not just the paranormal. I'd like to move the reference to the 'paranormal' section of this article, but for the time being, I can't think of a way to state it without being horribly redundant ("Someone who investigates the paranormal is called a paranormal investigator"). --InShaneee 15:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking expert eyes on Natasha Demkina

Hi all. I'd like to ask you, as people familiar with topics on or related to paranormal activity, to review the work at Natasha Demkina, "the girl with X-ray eyes", which has been undergoing a tug-of-war between a primary source and one of his critics. I've tried to bring it to at least NPOV but apparently I muddled the technicalities and there are still sourcing needs.

Would appreciate your comments -- the article is currently under protection but I think it can be taken out shortly.

TIA, - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Any Wikipedians....

Any Wikipedians out there who has had paranormal experiences ?Martial Law 09:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Being convinced myself that they do not exist... no. --AK7 03:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

There was this weird thing once, ( I was very young ). I was lying in bed and I concerntrated on the globe next to it, I could have sworn it started spinning around, but I was pretty tired at the time ( with resultant effects on perception) and it didn't really look like it moved much, so I'd hardly consider it conclusive proof of telekensis. There's been a couple of times when I've suddenly thought "Oh, such and such celebrity has died", I look it up on the internet and... whata you know, it's happened about three times. However personally I'd be far more likely to believe that this can be explained by a combination of coincidence and half heard news report. Personally I am glad I don't have psychic powers, because images flash through my head of the building burning around me, of gravity doing weird things etc whenever I am stressed, If I really was telekentic ( to a large degree) and things happened when I imagined them I'd be responsible for millions of dollars in damaged property and worse, god knows how many deaths.

Please sign your statements. Martial Law 05:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I've experienced "unexplained vanishing objects" more than once. The most recent one was upsetting: a wooden stir-stick disappeared while I was stirring morning coffee. The stick slipped under the opaque liquid... and then it wasn't there. I know it sounds silly... but imagine that this happened to *you*. :) Most "vanishing objects" reports can be attributed to perceptual faults, where you can't see a set of keys sitting on a cluttered table (yet a friend has no trouble seeing them.) But occasionally people will report genuine disappearances... often followed by mysterious re-appearances. --Wjbeaty 06:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm always losing pens, and I don't understand why my sock's don't all match.

[edit] See Also

I think the See Also list of links needs to be either sorted or put in a separate category, as Wikipedia is Not a Repository of Links, and the article seems to be a repository with an intro and some text. Firestorm 21:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This entry needs special treatment

I do not agree with Firestrom. All the knowledge cannot be painted either black or white. Shades of gray need a different tretment. Charlie

I agree with Charlie. There is certainly value for some readers in having a list of objects that are tied together by some common characteristic -- the web is full of them. This page is the most logical nexus for a wide range of phenomenae which are relatively unique; certainly people interested in anomalies benefit from an index which will lead them to other examples. Twang 02:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

Seeing what a few of you half-wits did to my article (based in decades of experience), I found this comment today. And I just had to share it with you. Because it just fits.

I used to lend a hand to editing a few articles on wikipedia, but it was such an exercise in futility and frustration that I had to quit. When I first came across wikipedia, it struck me as a great idea, but after having contributions that I knew to be factual repeatedly removed or edited, I have to say that the concept as a whole is ridiculously flawed and unworkable.

If you don't know, wikipedia is an online "encyclopedia" that anyone can edit. That's right, any knucklehead viewing an article can click a link and add, remove or change whatever they'd like. You're probably already laughing, wondering how anyone could possibly take such a thing seriously, and you're right. No one should.

There is a small army of wikipedia geeks who apparently park on the site for hours a day waiting to check changes and remove obvious defacements and vandalism. But there's no way they can possibly know whether something is a legitimate change or not when dealing with 875,000 different topics.

If you become involved with a certain article, you'll soon find yourself debating minutia with a bunch of humorless idiots, hell-bent on making every article read like the same clumsy, robot-drone horror show. I understand that an "encyclopedia" should have a neutral presentation. But there's neutral, and then there's mind-numbing.

Style issues aside, when there are errors continually introduced into a topic I know quite a bit about, it makes me doubt the validity of the articles that I might want to read to actually learn something. How can I have faith in a pool of information that I know for a fact is polluted? Yes, I know you could say that about the internet as a whole, not just wikipedia. But the internet doesn't tout itself as the fount of all human knowledge.

Syonara, Wikipedia. The mediocrities won. Just like they did at Everything. 3rd time's the charm. Go ahead and delete this, halfwits. See you in the history books.

Wouldn't it be better to stay and work on how to improve the article? (Emperor 17:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Vandalism

Although there was a reversion there were actually two separate acts of vandalism (both related to "Dontay" and the reversion only fixed the more recent one. I've now turned things back to the version on the 13th [1] and I think I've managed to carry over the only extra bit of legitimate information that had been added - the link to the Czech version. Worth keeping an eye on this entry for further foolishness though. (Emperor 17:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] A Spring Clean?

I'm not really that happy with the entry - it seems slightly unfocused.

I've added in some of the "classics" into the further reading but I suspect it would be a good idea to remove some of the other more specific ones (remote viewing and channeling books can go in their respetive entries).
Equally the "See Also" need addressing. Personally I think it should contain entries which generally expand on the topic. Examples of specific phenomena can be grouped together and accessed via the Forteana category and the most relevant can be linked to from the examples section.
Mainly I think the top part could be tightened up and probably bulleted (we could also move the Einstein quote to the start?). I was thinking we could go for:

Anomalous phenomena are those that lie at the fringes of acceptance. They can be:

Fringe science topics which may eventually be rejected or absorbed within the general consensus. Meterotites once existed in this area and cold fusion still does.

More paranormal topics like ghosts and UFOs. Some of these may straddle the divide between this and the above, for example cryptozoolgy.

There are numerous explanations for the latter:

Deliberate human activity - hoaxing or pranks

Physiolgical activity - temporal lobe epilepsy, general fatigue

Errors - misidentifications, misunderstadnings, etc.

As yet unidentfied natural phenomena - earthlights, etc.

The important thing in the study of anomalous phenomena is to be able to sift out the data that can be easily explained (as opposed to "explained away") to see if there is actually a case to answer.

We could put the explanations under the examples. Granted it needs a polish and kicking around a bit but I wanted to get the ball rolling. Anyone got any other ideas? (Emperor 20:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC))

Don't forget "Black ops". Martial Law 04:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC) :)

Good point - we have to get a mention of Skunk works and Disinformation in there too (Emperor 16:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Suitable "Further reading"

There is conflict about what books should be suggested for further reading. Is there any reason why the works of Charles Fort should not be listed? He is mentioned earlier. His very name is a synonym for Anomalous Phenomena, "Fortean". It seems bizarre not to list his books and the others that were there, as a service to the reader . --GangofOne 07:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Quite right - I have to say I am mystified how adding in those books to "Further Reading" can be classed as 'spam.' I have shelves of books on anomalous phenomena and if anyone wanted to get some further reading to get them into the topic then those are the very books I'd lend them (and possibly Karl Shuker's "The UneXplained" as well as the partwork of the same name). If you know of any other good general reference books on the area then add them in but 'spam'... I even made a note of what I'd done above - if people had an issue with it they could have easily dropped in here (or m talk page) and asked me to explain my actions which I'd be happy to do. (Emperor 16:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC))

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