Talk:Anglo-Irish Treaty

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

[edit] Partition

I question the statement that Partition was not a factor. I find these on historical-debates of the Dáil

  • MR. S.T. O'CEALLAIGH: (Dáil Éireann - Volume 3 - 20 December, 1921), con "The two great principles for which so many have died, and for which they would still gladly die—no partition of Ireland and no subjugation of Ireland by any foreign power—have gone by the board in this Treaty, and some good men are thinking of voting for it."
  • MR. MILROY: (same) pro "Did they expect that the five men who went there would be able to bring back an arrangement that was at variance with the declaration of President de Valera that we were not going to coerce Ulster? The fact is that the provisions of the Treaty are not Partition provisions, but they ensure eventual unity in Ireland. But, as a matter of fact, whether there were Partition provisions or not, the economic position and the effects on the six counties' area is this, that sooner or later isolation from the rest of Ireland would have so much weight on the economic state of these six counties as to compel them to renew their association with the rest of Ireland. That trend of economic fact will be stimulated by the provisions of this Treaty, and the man who asserts that Partition is perpetuated in that Treaty is a man who has not read or understands what are the provisions in the Treaty. "
  • MR. SEAN MACENTEE: (Dáil Éireann - Volume 3 - 22 December, 1921) con "I am opposed to this Treaty because it gives away our allegiance and perpetuates partition. By that very fact that it perpetuates our slavery; by the fact that it perpetuates partition it must fail utterly to do what it is ostensibly intended to do—reconcile the aspirations of the Irish people to association with the British Empire. When did the achievement of our nation's unification cease to be one of our national aspirations?"

In fact their substantive objection was about continuing to be a Dominion of the British Empire, and not be a Republic. The Oath of Allegiance (or Fidelity) is merely a symbol of that. However, the debates do confirm the view of many (but not all) that the Unionists of Ulster could not and should not be coerced into a United Ireland. --Red King 17:24, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit by anonymous user:207.200.116.8

Some useful stuff in a rather POV edit. If you wish to reiterate your changes, please use this talk page to achieve a consensus version. --Red King 09:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Material on 1937 Consitution and 1948 Republic of Ireland Act

I've deleted a large paragraph the 1937 and 1948 activities, because this article is about the treaty, not a potted history of Ireland 1921 to the present day. If a synopsis is really needed (consensus view again), this is the material:

Eamon de Valera, who, in 1932, became the second of only two Presidents of the Executive Council the Free State ever had, set about doing just that. Under the terms of the Constitution of the Free State, the Dáil was empowered to change it by simple majority (as is the case in the United Kingdom). These changes might be regarded as provisional measures while a new constitution was drafted and ratified, which took effect in 1937. Still in effect today, the new Bunreacht na hÉireann/Constitution of Ireland re-christened the country simply Éire or "Ireland" converted DeValera's post from "President of the Executive Counsel" to Taoiseach ("Leader," that is, Prime Minister), and replaced the appointed Governor General with an elected Uachtaran na hÉireann or "President of Ireland." The king remained nominally, if obtusely, head of the Irish state as a quasi-political gesture. According to some sources, DeValera did not wish to actually proclaim an Irish Republic until after the British Province of Northern Ireland were repatriated to Ireland. But DeValera and his party were out of power between 1948 and 1951. In 1949, and much to his and Fianna Fáil's chagrin, John Costello's Fine Gael party proclaimed the Irish Republic, which necessitated Ireland leaving the Commonwealth of Nations - because it no longer retained even the fiction of recognising the King as head of state. A year later, at the request of the Dominion of India, which wanted to become the Republic of India, the rules of the Commonwealth were changed to permit member states to opt out of having the British monarch as their head of state and be republics instead of constitutional monarchies. One can only wonder what both DeValera and Costello thought of that.

And by the way, Northern Ireland is not legally a Province. Ulster is, but Ulster is not Northern Ireland or vice versa. --Red King 09:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neither is Ulster a "legal" province, it's a commerative or historical province with little if any meaning in legal or other terms. - Dalta

[edit] Inaccurate statement about the Treaty of Westminster

The statement: (The sole exception to this was Canada, at her own request, who remained nominally subject to the British Parliament until 1982, because the federal and provincial governments could not agree on an amending formula for the Canadian Constitution.) is both factually incorrect and irrelevant. It is factually incorrect in that Canada was not the only dominion for which the statute did not enter into force in its entirety on signature - at a minimum Australia and New Zealand had special provisions which resulted in the statute not applying for several years. More significantly, it doesn't add anything understanding of the application of the statute to the Irish Free State. This page already links to the Statute of Westminster page and that would be the appropriate place for details of its applicability in other dominions. Unless someone objects, I intend to remove the sentence about Canada from the page. DHam 16:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The Anglo-Irish Treaty was never called such. The name on the papers was along the lines of "Articles of association between Ireland and the British Empire", this is it's proper name and the page should be called such, with reference to the various names given to it. Neither did the British ever accept it as a treaty, though the League of Nations did. This may be mentioned, I didn't really read the article. Also, in that box on the side, did Wales have the Red Dragon as their flag back in them days? I imagine it would've been a somewhat simplified version, if a singular flag existed at all. - Dalta

That would be quite a long title! History knows this agreement as the "Anglo-Irish Treaty", and that's what the article is called. --JW1805 21:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia under the MoS uses most common name. The most common name was the Anglo-Irish Treaty, not the Articles of Agreement. In any case the Articles of Agreement became a treaty when ratified by the three parliaments. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Generally it is wikipedia policy that the common names of things are accepted[1] to be used, exceptions are granted but quite unlikely to such a long and relatively unknown title - irrespective of been official. Many things from this era used long names as standard. Whatever either side called the agreement it is well regarded as a treaty - not least that it ended the war of independence - the article can make reference to the official title if wanted. Djegan 21:57, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the "official name" in the first sentence of the article to "Articles of Agreement for a Treaty Between Great Britain and Ireland" taking the title from Public Record Office Catalogue ref: HO 45/19974, and also Constitution of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) Act, 1922.garryq 09:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chronic inaccuracy

Whoever changed the opening paragraph produced a version that would earn an F in any exam. It contained a monumental clanger, the suggestion that the Treaty created Northern Ireland. That is BS. Northern Ireland had been created by the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. All the Treaty did was presume that Northern Ireland would continue as a home rule region within the Irish Free State unless Northern Ireland opted out and decided to remain in the UK, which it duly did. The claim that Northern Ireland was created by the AIT is elementary inaccuracy. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect negotiators name

The name of one of the Irish negotiators is incorrectly given as Charles Gavan Duffy. It was actually his son, George Gavan Duffy. See the UCD archives for further details. Seoirse (the name signed to the treaty) translates as George, not Charles.

I will make the corresponding change to the main page barring any major objections here.

Eanair 09:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Military leadership of Dev?

"Opponents of the Treaty, primarily Éamon de Valera, mounted a military campaign of opposition which produced the Irish Civil War (1922–23)."

Sorry, but that just is'nt so. Dev was in America or jailed for much of the war; his only contribution as a military leader was insisting on the disasterious raid on the Customs House. So if nobody minds, I'll change the above to reflect that. Fergananim 01:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Right conclusion for wrong reason. The war that Dev was in America for is the War of Independence, not the Civil War. That said, the leaders were Rory O'Connor and Cathal Brugha - there is no evidence that Dev wass in control. --Red King 20:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Red, I realised the same thing the following day. Cheers. Fergananim 20:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


Dev may not have been in direct control militarily, but his Republican Sinn Fein (not the current Ruari O' Bradaigh RSF) did instruct loyal IRA elements to sieze control of buildings of strategic importance. 13:18, 25 January 2006 83.71.74.73
Very dubious - you'll need to point to some evidence. Everything that I've read suggests that Rory O'Connor acted unilaterally and then Dev endorsed it. --Red King 21:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/n/g/Talk%7EAnglo-Irish_Treaty_c3fc.html"