Talk:American Mutoscope and Biograph Company

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Contents 1 Tagged for cleanup and as unreferenced 2 Corporate status 3 Added Information 4 "Small office" is relevant 5 Transfer of assets 6 Administrator 6.1 Re: Peer Review 7 Wireless content: does it exist yet?

[edit] Tagged for cleanup and as unreferenced

This article needs external references and at a minimum, split down into an introduction and sections. --GraemeL ^(talk) 22:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Many "citation needed" notes were added where citations already existed in the article. I prefer to place citations at the end of sentences, not in the middle of sentences unless necessary. For instance, the fact that Classmates was the first feature released by Biograph, and that it was released in February 1914, can be found in The American Film Institute Catalog of Motion Pictures, volume F1, which is already cited at the end of the sentence. — Walloon 00:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

With your citations and general cleanup, the article now looks to be in much better shape. I've removed the cleanup tag. --GraemeL ^(talk) 16:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I know the article is not under "Cleanup" now, but I found a couple of minor misquotes and inaccuracies.

1. On ref#3, I inserted the exact quote from the webpage that it quotes from.

2. Where it talks about Selig Polyscope, I came across the book

Biograph Bulletins, 1895-1908 pp 262 Published by film historian Kemp Niver 1971, Locare Research Group

I couldn't add the link to the "References" section, maybe one of you can.

Thanks DanP

The new company is not a revival of the old company, despite what the new company would like to claim. It has the same name, but no transfer of title, trademarks, stock, physical assets, real estate, or intellectual property was involved. The new company took a trademark (the "AB" in a circle) that had fallen into the public domain from disuse, and registered it as their own. The old Biograph was made a division of Consolidated Film Industries in 1928, and CFI is still in business. As for Selig Polyscope, it's not clear what you are disputing. Are you saying that Selig did not make movies in the Los Angeles area in 1908-1909, or that they did not open a studio in Los Angeles in 1909? — Walloon 21:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I added some more headings to break up the text, please feel free to move or change them. -Will Beback 21:32, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

On the first line, where in a reference does it state the new company was formed in 1987? Just confused here, because the website doesn't state that.

In the second, I'm not disputing anything about Selig making films on those dates. I found reference that said Biograph had been in Los angeles in 1906 prior to any known motion picture company, and this appeared in the Biograph Bulletins book, published in 1971.

Third, just for my own knowledge, is there any other reference that CFI owns the old Biograph company? Just for my own edification.

On the trademarks and all that, I am not an attorney and can't give any opinions, I am involved mainly in history.

Also, do you know who originally posted the article the first time, and how long it has been up?

Thanks,

DanP:)

The original version of the article was posted on 29 November 2004 by AndyL, using information from the new company's website. As for the 1987 date, follow the link to the company's website, and you'll find, "In 1987 the company and its trademark(s) were revived . . . " On CFI's ownership of Biograph, I will contact CFI's legal department for more information. — Walloon 22:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a question on adding information on the old company. I supplied a reference stated above about the company being in LA in 1906 with verified reference and it has still not been posted. I confirmed this again in the book mentioned. I am really getting a spooky feeling about this. When I have time I am going to re-edit and include the verified information. I am currently investigating other film related articles as well, but this is getting weird. Any wiki-editors please let me know which way to go here. I was under the impression anyone can add verifiable information.

Thanks,

DanP:)

Your information has been included in footnote #10. — Walloon 18:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corporate status

If it is relevant that the new AM&B was incorporated in California in 1991, it is equally relevant that California has now suspended its corporate status. There can be few more relevant facts about a corporation than whether it still legally exists as a corporation. — Walloon 02:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly if anyone has different, reliable information about the current status of the organization they should include it here. But it is inappropriate to simply delete information without comment. Until there is an explanation, or new information, the material will keep being re-added. -Will Beback 06:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Information

I was in a hurry and forgot to post this. I made minor corrections on information in this article so that the Biograph Studios correct information matched the information on this article. From time to time I will be adding links and doing articles on the founders, actors, etc. Thanks to all the editors.

--Roger the red 22:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All printed evidence (and I've supplied it) says that CFI acquired the Biograph Company itself, not just its labs and studio (which were owned by Empire Trust Company). You still haven't provided evidence of your claim that CFI acquired only the Biograph studio and labs. As it is now, the article has footnotes with sources that contradict statements made in the body of the article. Unless you provide the evidence to back up your claim, the article will be reverted to state that CFI acquired the entire Biograph Company. — Walloon 23:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All printed evidence (and I've supplied it) says that CFI acquired the Biograph Company itself, not just its labs and studio (which were owned by Empire Trust Company). You still haven't provided evidence of your claim that CFI acquired only the Biograph studio and labs. As it is now, the article has footnotes with sources that contradict statements made in the body of the article. Unless you provide the evidence to back up your claim, the article will be reverted to state that CFI acquired the entire Biograph Company. — Walloon 23:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Walloon; I don't want to waste anyones time, nor stay on a subject that is nothing more than merely a paragraph in history. However, we do need to make sure things are correct. In response to your statement(s) the evidence of CFI acquiring only the Biograph studio and labs is in all the references. All information supplied shows the studio/laboratory facilites were acquired by CFI after the acquisition from Empire Trust cCmpany (Except for the footnote in Tuska's book)and no mention of transference of intellectual/real properties from the actual company, only the studio/laboratory facilities itself that were purchased. I supplied the information and utilized your references as well, including the New York Times and Jon Tuska's book.

I will insert all the items of reference again:

(a) The last trade of Biograph stock was reported by The New York Times on December 27, 1928, p. 39. (No transference of Biograph Company properties, intellectual or otherwise, or any mention of intellectual or real property transference to CFI.)

(b) "Screen News Here and in Hollywood", The New York Times, September 27, 1939, p. 29. Empire Trust Company, one of Biograph's creditors, had acquired the Bronx Studio, but retained Biograph to manage it. (Again, in italics, mentions "Bronx Studio" nothing of any acquisition or transference of properties from company).

(c)Jon Tuska's book; The Vanishing Legion: A History of Mascot Pictures, 1927-1935, 42, Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland & Company. ISBN 0786407492. (This mention of "Biograph" in the book was explained to me by the Author).

Again, no records indicating any kind of transference of intellectual and or real properties. The only items mentioned were the actual studio and laboratory facilities. On the clariification of Tuska's book, would I need to call him again and get a letter from him stating what he told me. Also, on your end, a verification of transfer of ownership or merging of intellectual properties , real properties etc. from the old company itself to CFI is needed (This is of course excluding the actual studio/laboratories which were purchased by CFI).

If we can find that the actual company was transferred, or transference of intellectual/real properties to CFI, then there is no problem (And, I have no problem) in changing it back to your original version. On another note, unfortunately, I do not have alot of time, the lecture circuit has been busy, so I cannot give full attention to Wikipedia on a daily basis. But, I will be checking in as frequently as possible, so we can take time on this small subject. Again, I am interested more in old studio facilities than this article.

Thanks,

--Roger the red 20:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to make small mention of an edit I did to this article, as well as editing other film companies articles. Not just their history, I am now interested in content as well. I was informed by editor Dpbsmith of certain Wikipedia policies that I was actually unaware of. He stated "According to longstanding policy, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and is not for promoting forthcoming media releases. The material should not be reinserted until sources meeting WP:RS can be cited that show that the product a) exists, b) has received enough mainstream press coverage to establish notability, and c) can be clearly connected to the 'Subject' itself". On a side note, strangely, I found this "Promotion" all over Wikipedia, unchallenged (Which I will be working on). Continuing, this is why the editor Dpbsmith removed the reference to Wireless Mutoscopes since the editor claimed it was a "Future" reference, and only one press release for reference. Because of this, I researched the Biograph article to see anything else, and found an inclusion on "Biograph on the Moon", which 1) No link to the "Biograph Moon" inclusion, 2)It was used as a "Crystal Ball" to portray and promote something forthcoming, and 3) has received not enough mainstream press coverage to establish notability. Therefore I deleted it. However, the inclusion was republished with an archived link. I just need assistance, because this confuses me, is contradicting to what Dpbsmith stated, and the longhstanding WP:RS Wikipedia policies. I will investigate and contact Wikipedia, but any other help by any of the editors is greatly appreciated. Thanks, --Roger the red 18:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The sentence "In 2003, Biograph announced that it had acquired title to 1,777 acres on the Moon for use as a filming location, and Thomas R. Bond II stated that he planned to start filming there by 2008" probably can be deleted. Assuming you take it at face value, the acquisition of lunar real estate took place in 2003 and is thus not "crystal ball" territory. Strictly speaking the plans to start production there in 2008 are a statement made by Bond in 2003. But the point is that none of these plans are important enough to have been described in 2003 in any reliable source. The source given is just Biograph's own press release, which doesn't meet the reliable source guidelines.

I think it's obviously an attempt at self-promotion. I don't care whether it stays or goes. I've left it in myself because I think it's so silly that it undercuts any suggestion that the new Biograph is to be taken seriously. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Small office" is relevant

Los Angeles Downtown News quotes "CEO Thomas Bond" as saying "the small office would serve as the headquarters for the company." Not only does the LA Downtown News characterize this as a "small office," but they quote the CEO as characterizing it as a "small office." This is important in presenting a neutral view of the revived company, which has grandiose plans for studios on the Moon, etc. but as of 2006 appears to be a very small operation. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transfer of assets

I have deleted the following:

The company was revived in 1991 but it is not clear if there was a complete sale of all the assets of the company.

Actually, it is very clear. Not only was there not a "complete sale" of "all the assets", there was no sale of assets — because there were no assets to transfer, as the article says. All of Biograph's film copyrights expired by the 1940s, were not renewed, and entered the public domain (yes, I have researched this, check the footnotes to the article). Biograph Studios donated its film collection to the Museum of Modern Art circa 1939.[1] (See: Iris Barry, "Why Wait for Posterity?" Hollywood Quarterly, 1945/46, pp. 131-137.) All of Biograph's registered trademarks expired by the 1940s out of abandonment (nonuse). The Los Angeles studio was sold circa 1917, and the Bronx studio was sold and resold several times since it was shuttered in 1939, and burned down in 1980. — Walloon 01:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Administrator

I had asked for assistance from Wikipedia administrator Samuel Wantman to help go by Wikipedia guidelines and edit the article. You have again changed and reverted the article back. Reverting this many times can intitiate a 3RR action. Because of the difficulty I may not be editing on this article for awhile, but working on ohters since there is an obvious bias. This has been forwarded to the administrator.

--Roger the red 21:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Roger, Walloon has not done anything unusual that I notice. He removed something with citations that back up his statements. If you think it is unclear that there was a complete sale of assets of the company, you should find a citation that backs up that statement. You should be talking with Walloon on this page to sort this out. It is not the role of administrators to be the arbiters of truth. I have no knowledge about this subject. My view is that I see editors working in good faith to improve this article. What I don't see is your effort to discuss this with Walloon. It is very normal for things to be removed from articles because they are uncited and contradict other information. When this happens, and you think the removal is in error, consider it a challenge to find a source that corroborates the information that was removed. If you find the source return the material with a citation. -- Samuel Wantman 01:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, thank you for your time and input. I am concentrating on another article at the moment, but I will do just that. I also will put the article up for peer review. By this, others as well can join in with thier input, which will free me to do other things. Also, what citations and references will be valid, and acceptable to Wikipedia policies? If I find a legitimate, verifiable citation and that is removed as well, let me know the next step is on what to do. I understand you must be neutral, and I appreciate the guidance you have given me.

--Roger the red 02:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Peer Review

After consultations with other editors, we have decided to put the article up for peer review. I also neeed to devote more time to other older silent film companies. T

The editor "Walloon" posed a couple of informative references that need to be clarified. the below is part of that posting, along with the questions at hand.

• 1. "Actually, it is very clear. Not only was there not a "complete sale" of "all the assets", there was no sale of assets — because there were no assets to transfer, as the article says." *1.

• 1. Please quote the article which states (i.e. "because there were no assets to transfer".

• • 2. "Biograph Studios donated its film collection to the Museum of Modern Art circa 1939.[1] (See: Iris Barry, "Why Wait for Posterity?" Hollywood Quarterly, 1945/46, pp. 131-137.)" **2.

• • 2. Please clarify how Biograph Studios donated the film collection to the Museum of Modern Art in 1939 when the company went out of business in 1928?

• • 2. "The last trade of Biograph stock was reported by The New York Times on December 27, 1928, p. 39."

I invite All editors for thier input and information.

Thanks,

--Roger the red 03:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nowehere in the current article does it say that the Biograph Company went out of business in 1928. If you'll look back on the history of the article and the discussion page for the Biograph Studios article, you'll see that I am the person who kept insisting that the Biography Company did NOT go out of business in 1928, and you, Roger the Red, were the one who kept insisting that it DID go out of business in 1928. I quoted a New York Times article (September 27, 1939, p. 29) that said,

The Biograph Studio in the Bronx will suspend operations on Saturday, it was learned yesterday. . . . The studio, which is owned by the Empire Trust Company, has been operated for seven years by Biograph, a subsidiary of Consolidated Film Industries, Inc.

You objected to that. I quoted from the book The Vanishing Legion: A History of Mascot Pictures, 1927-1935 (p. 42) that Herbert Yates' Consolidated Film Industries gained a majority interest in the Biograph Company in 1928, and you objected to that too. The Wikipedia article as it is currently worded reflects your changes,

When the Biograph Company fell on financial hard times, the studio facilites were acquired by one of Biograph Company's creditors, the Empire Trust Company, although Biograph Company continued to manage the studio Herbert Yates acquired the Biograph Company Studios and Film laboratory facilities in 1928. Biograph Studios in the Bronx was made a subsidiary of his Consolidated Film Industries in 1928.

The films remained at Biograph Studio in the Bronx from 1913 to 1939. When the Bronx studio was closed in 1939, the films were donated to the MOMA. The article and its footnotes DO explain what became of the company's principal assets: (1) films, (2) copyrights, (3) Bronx studio (4) film lab. I admit that the article does not currently explain what became of the company's registered trademarks (as state above, expired in the '40s) or the Los Angeles studio (as stated above, sold circa 1917). I can easily add that additional info to the article. — Walloon 06:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wireless content: does it exist yet?

I am thinking that the material about the release of new and historical mutoscope films for viewing on cell phones ought to be deleted on the principle that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The Biograph company's own site, http://www.biographcompany.com/wireless/wireless.html , says "Biograph will soon offer the newest cutting edge content" (emphasis supplied).

Admittedly the next sentence seems to contradict this by saying "you now can download short films called "Mutoscopes" from your local wireless carrier," but unless someone cares to give a verifiable source citation for the cell carriers offering them and a list of the titles offered, I am skeptical.

I think this is another effort at promotion (much like the claim that Biograph has leased land on the Moon and will be producing a film there in 2007).

I am going to delete this material in a week or so unless someone provides good evidence (meeting the verifiability policy) that the new content has actually been produced and that Mutoscope titles for use on cell phones actually available for purchase now. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:

Actually, I had deleted any reference to that already in the "Mutoscope" article. I also contacted Strom-Magallon Entertainment, and they do have a legal distribution contract with American Mutoscope and Biograph Company for new "Mutoscopes". From my research, four have been produced and viewed, so there is actual verification that it is actually a done deal, unlike speculation on the "Moon" lot, which is definately presumption. On this note, any editors with any questions can leave messages. If this is the case, then it needs to be included on this page as well as the "Mutoscope" article.

Also a change of subject, on my own "Talk" page, none of the other so-called "Old" film companies have been refrenced, cited, or questioned on validity, only the word of the film companies. This needs to stop. ALL film company articles need to be edited with the same scrutiny as this one. So, I impore the help of all editors to help me with this.

Thanks,

--Roger the red 20:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What are the titles of the four films? From which wireless companies can they be downloaded? "Verifiable" doesn't mean that an editor asserts that he's checked it. It means you can produce a source citation.

If you've noticed film company articles that lack references you should tag them with the {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} tag. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a very low budget play which hoped to leverage a very old name into some mega funding. There is zero relationship between the original Biograph and this business. Although the website claims to have "licensed" the old Biograph library to the Library of Congress for "non-profit" use, it all fell into the public domain decades ago. The bit about a motion picture lot on the moon is transparent, meaningless hype: International law doesn't support the private control of property on the moon. Moreover, the dates the company claimed for putting a camera on the moon have come and gone (no surprise). Gwen Gale 09:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

First, I have been busy on othe projects but did happen to peruse this information, but happen to come across this again, and could not help but input. Although all valid contributions are welcome, the above statement is mainly an opinion rather than a verifiable fact. This is fine for the discussion page, but not for inclusion in the actual article. I am refering to the statement "This is a very low budget play which hoped to leverage a very old name into some mega funding." and..."The bit about a motion picture lot on the moon is transparent, meaningless hype" Again, an opinion, no matter if the claim is valid or invaild. I strive to keep neutrality as much as possible. As far as the "Old Downtowner" news article, it was changed and paraphrased in which I reverted it back to what the article actually said. If a quote is made, it has to be acurate and word for word. Also, this was posted in the "Wirelss Entertainment" discussion, rather then the GENERAL article discussion. On a funny note, yes the moon item is "Out there" but what is humorous as well is the artcile states that a camera will be on the moon in 2008, which your response was "the dates the company claimed for putting a camera on the moon have come and gone (no surprise).". I didn't know it was 2009 yet? Just adding to an already ridiculous heated argument. --Roger the red 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In 'New Company' section "started a new business using the old company's name. The company was incorporated in California in 1991.[19]" is a repeat of what is stated in the first main part of the article "A new company with the same name was incorporated in California in 1991.[3]" therefore the former deleted. Things like that is what makes a 'Bad' quality story, rated "B".

--Roger the red 09:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)