Talk:American Civil War
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[edit] You need to change this
I am apalled and disgusted that you have two paragraphs of how slavery caused the Civil War, and one line of other factors. It is because of absurd comments like these that people think all people from the South are bigots and racists.
Did you know that the South freed slaves who would fight in the War? What, were they going to free them, win the war, and recapture them?
Slaves were not treated as bad as people claim. You want to know how a slave was really treated, you ask an Irishman from the South. Slaves were given shelter, food, medical attention, use of tools, etc. Any Irishman of the time was an indentured servant. They had to pay out of their own pocket for the food they had, the tools they used, where they lived, to be allowed to work the land, and any medical attention they could afford. Slaves were not beaten within an inch of their life, because the slave owner didn't want to risk the money.
"In Africa, slaves were often taken by other Africans by means of capture in warfare, and frequently employed in manual labor. Some slaves were traded for goods or services to other African kingdoms."- wikipedia
So, before the White Man ever took a slave to America, the Africans were already using each other as slaves. White men did not go to Africa looking for slaves, they were looking for valuable materials like gold and jewels. Africans sold Africans as slaves to get the White Man's money.
The real cause of the Civil War was that the North was experiencing industrialization and modernization, and wanted the South to remain farmalnd. The North was gaining a bigger voice in the federal government, and was trying to tell the South how it should be ran.
70.160.52.111 20:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Chris Cobb 09/12/0670.160.52.111 20:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
No one's blaming modern day Southerners. This is history.Jimmuldrow 22:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow! I used to think that the Civil War began due to huge differences in opinion between the North and the South. Then the Southern states seced and then attacked Federal land at Fort Sumter with war ensuing between the Confederacy and the Union. I didn't know that there were tariffs involved and many other peculiar things. Thanks to all of you for taking the time and passion to argue this.```ericferguson
- I am really surprised that Wikipedia suggests that slavery had anything to do with the start of the Civil War. Slavery was an idea proposed to Lincoln near the end of the war by northern lobbyists. Lincoln never had intentions of ending slavery but felt political pressures to incorporate these ideas into his actions not long before the Amancipation Proclomation.
People do not realize that Delaware (a northern state) was a major player in the slave trade and for its land area was one of the heaviest populated states with slaves. I have seen estimates that 10-20% of the slaves in the US were owned by African people. Since slavery at that time, and still today, is common in Africa many African slave owners came to America with their slaves and kept them as slaves after arriving in America. Please correct this article by doing research and not just allowing a person from the north that does not have the facts and probably dislikes the South anyway write your articles about the Civil War. Matt Atlanta GA 9/26/2006
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- I'm afraid you're kidding yourself a wee bit, mate. If you want to generalize teh reasons for the way, you could say 'state's rights.' But one big issue of state's rights was... slavery! Of course there were issued that simmered for a while, such as tariffs favoring the north, the question of representation (the Mo. Compromise back in 1820 shows how far back this went), et al, but slavery was probably the deciding factor. Lincoln actually approved a 13th Amendment to the constitution, which would have stopped Washington from meddling with the issue of slavery in Southern states, but SC left the Union before it could be ratified into law. David Fuchs 23:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an argument that has been bandied about since "The Lost Cause" arguments and is a favorite of good ol' boys here in the South to justify or rationalize our discomfort with: a. having had the institution in the first place b. having lost.
Actually, however, there is substantial truth in this. Like many political issues, there are many reasons and different views, and each can have some degree of truth. Slavery was clearly a politicized issue but it also was a real social issue for many northerners. Sort of like historians arguing in the future as to whether the war in Iraq was over terrorism, religion, oil, geo-political shuffling, an incompetent son trying to out do his daddy, etc. But it can't be argued that few southerners actually owned slaves nor did they have a financial or moral investment in slavery. Recall the answer given by the southern prisoner when his Union captor asked him, "You don't own any slaves. Why are you here?"
The Rebel replied matter-of-factly, "Because you are."
Again, considering the current state of affairs in Iraq, history does indeed repeat itself. Esdawg 06:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)esdawg
[edit] John Brown Edit Request
I recently read an essay describing modern history's narrow view of John Brown and his achievements/acts. By the word 'achievements', you can see that I am biased. I'm Kansan, and I rather admire the old man. After all, who wouldn't dream of having that beard? But anyway, I would like to ask if anybody else would like to contribute and help me write either a more extensive write up of his actions here in this article (so long as they have major reprecussions in Bleeding Kansas) or that we create another article for him. T.z0n3 01:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- Forgive me, I was retarded and didn't read. John Brown has a good article, but Bleeding Kansas is hardly even mentioned in this article. And John Brown isn't given much real place. Oughtn't they get a bit more of the article? T.z0n3 01:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- The "causes" section is definitely a bit muddled and repeats itself in places. Probably more of the Bleeding Kansas article should be summarized there, though it would help if it were better organized in general. -- Beland 22:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
You said the Causes section needs to be organized better? I noticed that there are a lot of references to John Brown that might be redundant. Anything else you think is muddled or repeats itself? Let us know.Jimmuldrow 04:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anaconda minus J.Lo
I added this:
- "Yet, in April 1862, Wilmington, NC; Charleston, SC; and New Orleans were still open, enabling the Confederates to import four hundred thousand muskets in 1862-63, when the Confederate Army was losing one hundred thousand each year, unquestionably lengthening the war."
I rely on Fuller's Military History of the Western World. Trekphiler 08:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
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- The Fuller book is not considered reliable for specific details--it's a general history of wars over 2000 years. Rjensen 08:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Is he wrong on the principle? Trekphiler 08:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Fuller is a good read and good at describing the strengths of people like Lee and Grant. a big picture man. There has been a lot of research on blockade and Fuller never read that kind of detail. So he copied his info from somewhere. In any case there is a lot of solid research on the blockade that should be used first.--esp Stephen Robert Wise, “Lifeline of the Confederacy: Blockade Running during the Civil War” COntrary to Fuller, we know New Orleans was blockaded by June 1861 see [1]. Rjensen 08:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm happy to take it out again. I don't have the knowledge to support it independently. Trekphiler 09:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Fuller is a good read and good at describing the strengths of people like Lee and Grant. a big picture man. There has been a lot of research on blockade and Fuller never read that kind of detail. So he copied his info from somewhere. In any case there is a lot of solid research on the blockade that should be used first.--esp Stephen Robert Wise, “Lifeline of the Confederacy: Blockade Running during the Civil War” COntrary to Fuller, we know New Orleans was blockaded by June 1861 see [1]. Rjensen 08:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Is he wrong on the principle? Trekphiler 08:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- The Fuller book is not considered reliable for specific details--it's a general history of wars over 2000 years. Rjensen 08:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Great War?
I don't see any mention of the technical or technological aspects. It was the first war with major use of railroads, telegraph, & rifles; the first where weapons production & the draft were important; the first to use entrenchment & dispersal against hostile fire, hand grenades, & a variety of flamethrower. (Fuller mentions the last 2.) It's widely acknowledged European armies paid no attention, or WW1 wouldn't have been such a bloody slaughter. It can be called the first modern war; Sherman & Lincoln were fighting the Confederate government. (Doris Kearns Goodwin gets it wrong; battlefield victories were irrelevant.) Once Lincoln promulgated the Emancipation Proclamation (a clear grand strategic move), there was no chance of British or French intervention; Britain had opposed slavery for 50yr by then, & France would never risk war with Britain to aid the Confederacy. Trekphiler 08:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- A technologically phenomenal war. Code ciphers, spy balloons to detect troop movements, and photography, and ironclads were all technological innovations that made the American Civil War unique. As the war ended, early versions of machine guns were being produced which later saw action as Gatling guns in Indian wars and Maxim guns in Zulu wars.
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- If you go back into the archives a number of months -- perhaps a year -- you'll see there used to be a section in this article on that topic. However, for each of the technology innovations, someone was able to object that it was used in other wars, particularly the Crimean War, before the American Civil War, and the section was eventually deleted. If you would like to advocate restoring such a section, it would be best to base it on secondary sources and provide adequate in-line citations. Hal Jespersen 15:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Long-term economic factors (graph)
In the "Long-term economic factors" section I found the graph to be confusing. Having "CSA" as an item on the graph doesn't make sense. It essentially says "CSA is 100% of CSA". I finally twigged it was a comparative graph to compare the 100% CSA to the other economic advantages the Union held. Wouldn't it be better to remove the CSA bar and change the title to something like "Propotional economic advantage of Union over Confederacy" ? --Nickj69 08:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Also the label "RR Miles" is not helpful since the measure is not in miles (its in %) and RR is confusing - I know there's a limit to screen real estate but how about "Railroad (by length)" --Nickj69 08:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anti-Southern Bias
Victors do get to write history, but it is sad to see how true it is. Topics omitted from this article that could provide readers with a better understanding of the Civil War than their political educations include -- the great effort that Lincoln made to appease slave owners -- the role cotton played in industrializing economies (England, America, India, other developing countries) -- the tremendous demand for labor in and the exorbidant cost of transportation to the new world -- how the Confederacy expected to win and nearly did (outlast Lincoln vs. fall of Atlanta) -- how photography captured the horror of battle forever and forgot the misery of defeat -- Grant's experience in supplies and logistics prior to the army -- Lee's requirement that his men cease fighting vs. Forrest's plan to continue a guerilla war -- and of course, the various flavors of justsice, dispensed by the victors, the vanquished, and the victims. It's wonderful that someone is working to incorporate all the various topics of different popular encyclopedias, but it is important to remember that Wikipedia is not sold by door-to-door salesmen in small towns throughout the American Midwest. So it isn't necessary to exihibit so much anit-Southern bias in the presentation of the topic.69.255.0.91 14:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Permanent Link for Wikipedia Research
Hello, editors of American Civil War! I am currently working on an essay on Wikipedia, part of which will feature a comparison of articles of Wikipedia and Encyclopaedia Brittanica. To ensure that I send reviewers articles that have not been recently vandalized or have not been involved in an edit war, I would like, by December 31st, a revision of this article to be listed at User:Chrisisme/Research-permalinks that is not vandalized and/or is generally at peak quality. Thank you! Chrisisme 20:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect Photo Caption
In the "Eastern Theater, 1861-63" there is a photo with the caption: "Confederate dead behind the stone wall of Marye's Heights, Fredericksburg, Virginia, killed during the Battle of Chancellorsville, May 1863."
This makes no sense. The action at Mayre's Heights occurred at the Battle of Fredricksburg in December of 1862. The Battle of Chancellorsville occurred in the Spring of 1863, and was, I would estimate, 15-30 mile away from the site of Mayres Heights.
I did not correct it because I have no way of authenticating whether the photo is actually the wall at Mayre's Heights (which it appears to be) or at Chancellorsville (which I doubt).
Ed Smith Chattanooga, TN
- In the Battle of Chancellorsville, May 1863, troops from John Sedgwick's corps assaulted Marye's Heights, lightly held by troops under Jubal Early, achieving much better results than Ambrose Burnside's army did in December 1862. This action is known by some as the Second Battle of Fredericksburg, although most historians include it as a part of Chancellorsville, as they also do for the actions at Salem Church. Hal Jespersen 16:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Term "Civil War"
Previous to the age of Political Correctness, the complaints of those offended by the term Civil War have gone unheeded. As the Centennial for the North-South conflict approached in the 1960's the Southern States all established committees to organize the commemoration under differing names, but they never called it the Civil War. Only in the North did they designate it as the Civil War. Even today in the age of Political Correctness the term Civil War offends many Southerners, especially since it is term they perceive as a distortion of the facts and reasons behind the South's Secession. They tend to take great offense to outsiders writing and telling them their own history. Political Correctness is supposed to promote tolerance, but it would seem that PC has completely ignored Southerners' feelings where their own history is concerned. --Clay
- Please see Naming the American Civil War, linked at the very top of the article. Andrew Levine 19:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I already have, but I stil felt my comments were more appropriate if placed here. I don't mean to step on people's toes by not following accepted form, but wasn't aware that discussion pages had such a strict form until the comment below. --Clay
[edit] Could we post some demi-permanent guidelines at the top of this talk page?
Because many of the same issues seem to arise again and again (like Naming above), and since often many of these issues have been discussed ad nauseum in talk archives, and since those archives while prominently displayed are often not investigated before some new user gets offended about the choices made, I suggest we establish a few modest guidelines to help the page grow in progressive ways, instead of herky-jerky motion (though I admit a certain amount of hither and thither is inevitable). Further, I think we should post them at the top of this page and keep them there when archiving talk. I can commend the utility of the practice as established at Template talk:American Civil War Menu. Since the editors (including myself) have established some basic "notability" (I use that term loosely and unofficially) and style guides, these guides have helped keep our effort to that project coherent, while allowing changes. The guidelines on this article would by necessity be much less restrictive, but could assist this important and improving pagespace by clearly stating intention to new editors. BusterD 21:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Maps!
Pictures speak a thousand words, yet in the muddle and boring text, there are very few maps that show the forntline in varoius years. As an amateur military historian, this article is very poor.
[edit] Another Naming comment
The 'American Civil War' is more appropriately called the 'War of Southern Independence'. The Southern States had legal and reasonable complaints for secession. The Northern States has threatened secession several times prior to this point. This war had little to nothing to do with slavery and had more to do with rights of States. Many do not realize that slavery was not fully abolished in the Northern States until after the conclusion of the 'Civil War'. Many also donot realize that many Northern States that abolished slavery had also made it illegal for African Americans to live in those same states, thus the reason the 'Railroad' for slaves went to Canada. African Americans caught in these Northern States were severely punished by beatings and expulsion from these states. Many Northern States had no love for African Americans. Another little known fact is that the North had accepted the secession of the South and even acknowledged their newly formed government prior to attacking them. This more appropriately redefines this war as an Invasion vs. a Civil War.
Realizing that to the victors goes the spoils; I still wish that history would be recorded with at least some facts, rather than all fiction.
Raymond (unsigned comment left by 66.82.9.83, 15:06, 11 November 2006, BusterD 15:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC))
edit: Out of curiosity, what were those "legal and reasonable complaintis"?
-Andy
[edit] Would adding the following be a good way to make the article more balanced?
Modern day Southerners think this article has an anti-Southern bias. Would adding the following be an improvement?
In fairness to Southerners, Northerners were far from perfect. The North had a mix of black codes and personal liberty laws. Only a few states in New England allowed blacks to vote the same as whites, and even there, blacks weren't allowed in every restaurant or hotel. Some Northern states had laws excluding blacks. If a few Northerners were Abolitionists, and perhaps a majority wanted a gradual, peaceful end to slavery, some Northerners were in favor of slavery. And Angelina Grimke believed in complete racial equality, but said that the North shared responsibility for slavery by buying Southern cotton.[1] As Lincoln put it in a speech to free blacks at the White House:
Perhaps you have long been free, or all your lives. Your race are suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoy. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent, not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of ours. Go where you are treated the best, and the ban is still upon you.[2]
Still, the differences between North and South on racial issues were large and growing.Jimmuldrow 20:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
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- The issue was not the condition of the blacks--it was secession. The South refused to stay in the Union and the Union refused to let them go. Hence war.Rjensen 20:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
True. I personally agree. And mentioning exceptions to the rule would add too much bulk. Which is why I mentioned the thought here before adding it to the article. The only reason I mentioned it is that angry Southerners think we're unfair, for some reason.Jimmuldrow 22:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- When it comes to telling Southerners about their OWN history you are. :) No one wants to tell history on this period from the Southerners' point-of-view even though it was their States that were invaded and ravaged by Northern Aggressors. The PC version with its censorship makes light of what was done to the South as though it were nothing. --Clay
See what I mean? Jimmuldrow 15:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
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- The proposed addition misinterprets the causes of the Civil War (the black vote was rarely or never mentioned, for example), and distorts the politics of the war. It seems to be the personal POV of one editor, and certainly dfoes not represent the consensus of scholars. The goal of Wiki is not to keep people happy (or equally unhappy) but to get the fact right. 05:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The addition doesn't say the black vote in the North (or lack of it) was the cause of the war. As the sub-title exists, it's only a caveat, i. e., the rest is true with the clarifications mentioned. As for the politics of the war, what is the "consensus of scholors"? Remember that Allan Nevins debunked the myth of abolitionists as a sole or major cause of the war way back in 1947. Nevins said that the positive good theory of slavery was completely developed in the 1820s, before Garrison was publishing his Liberator. Are there any other corrections you think need to be made that reflect the best current "consensus of scholors"?Jimmuldrow 16:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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- In fairness to Southerners -- I assume that means southern white secessionists; Wiki should also be fair to southern blacks and southern white unionists. To be fair to some group Wiki should explain their position accurately.
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- Northerners were far from perfect. The North had a mix of black codes and personal liberty laws. Only a few states in New England allowed blacks to vote the same as whites, and even there, blacks weren't allowed in every restaurant or hotel. Some Northern states had laws excluding blacks. This has little or nothing to do with the causes or conduct of the Civil War.
- If a few Northerners were Abolitionists, and perhaps a majority wanted a gradual, peaceful end to slavery, some Northerners were in favor of slavery. This has nothing to do with it either. The issue was expansion of slavery (esp in territories like Kansas), long-term control of federal gov't, the right of secession, and the threat of Northern invasion (in April 1861). None of these points get mentioned. Rjensen 23:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Avazina/Clay Carter wanted to say that slavery had nothing to do with causes of the war, and accepted the caveat addition as a "compromise." If you'd rather to butt heads with Avazina for awhile, be my guest.Jimmuldrow 03:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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- what those folks mean by unfairness is that the South lost. Rjensen 03:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Can't help them much there.Jimmuldrow 03:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- Speaking as someone raised in the South, and seeing still some of the ruins from that terrible war, I am better qualified than any outsiders to discuss this subject from the POV of the South. While I have accepted the Caveat as a compromise I don't concede that Slavery was a DIRECT cause of the war as is blatantly implied in the article. Letters from Confederate Soldiers at the start of the war re-affirm the fact that the South was in a fight for liberty from a central gov't it felt was becoming oppressive. Throughout the South they identified their struggle with that of the American Revolution (1775-1783), this is evident with the symbols and historic figures present on much of the South's Currency. The State of Louisiana (my home state) even had black soldiers (called the Louisiana Tigers) and these were freed men, since Louisiana had the largest population of freed blacks of any state in the Union. The impression of the South conveyed, either directly or indirectly implied, by many of the so-called accepted Historians is that of a region consumed by Slavery where everyone owned at least 1 or 2 slaves, but nothing could be further from the truth. According to the 1860 census only 6% of the population in the Slave States owned slaves and of that number only half could actually be called Aristocrat (the Plantation Owners). --Clay
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- By unfairness we mean the flagrant gross mis-interpretation of our history by outsiders and the persistent portrayal of our ancestors as evil. When Confederate Troops invaded the North they never mistreated the local population, but Union Troops looted, raped, destroyed homes, and murdered civilians and it was all sanctioned by the so-called Great Abraham Lincoln. Now you want to talk about unfair, it isn't the fact that we lost, but the portrayal of Union soldiers as Saviors that really chaps our a**.--Clay
You talk about unfairness and yet terms like "Northern Aggression" and this attitude of the Southerner being nothing but the poor innocent victim in the war gives me very little sympathy. As to the low number of people owning slave, I would venture to guess that's attributable to the average person not being able to afford to own slaves, and should in no way be taken as evidence of some moral opposition to slavery, which I think we can all agree was wrong? Southerners never mistreated Northerners? What about Andersonville (spelled right?)? And I think there is still some sort of deep resentment over losing there, hence the sensitivity to even using the term "Civil War". I think the reason that term is offensive to some is they want to feel they were truly independent for a period of time, thus it would not have been a Civil War but truly a "War Between the States." All this self-righteous digust disgusts me.-Andy
- It always amazes me how Northerners and Southern Re-visionists will always bring up Andersonville to justify the North's treatment of the South during and after the war, when an analysis of the facts that resulted in what became Andersonville at war's end can explain why conditions were as deploreable as has been documented. By the time conditions at Andersonville deteriorated the Confederacy was overrun by a foreign army that had successfully cut most, if not all, supply lines, including those to the Andersonville POW camp. Most of the civilian population of the South had to do without, although they still had the means to hunt (had armaments to hunt with, which POW's aren't allowed) and land to grow their own crops (something POW's generally aren't allowed to do in any war even if possible), so even as supplies dwindled, they could, to some degree, fend for themselves. The Confederate Army even had to do with less and less as supply lines were destroyed and the persistent blockade by the North had begun to take effect by wars end. Most Confederate soldiers by wars end didn't even have shoes or if they did they could hardly be called shoes; their uniforms weren't nearly as pristine as that of the Union troops, in fact most Confederate soldiers were wearing rags. Furthermore, the conditions at Andersonville were made worse by the overcrowding due to the North's unwillingness to engage in prisoner exchanges. The overcrowding necessitated the flowering of disease and the deaths it caused; (it should also be noted that many of the Confederate guards at the prison also died as a result of the disease that overcrowding brought on). It is naive to think that Northern POW's in Southern POW camps should never feel the effects of war as exacted on the Confederacy; in short, the conditions at Andersonville were NOT intentional.--Clay
[edit] Stars and Bars vs. Battle Flag/Navy Jack/Stainless Banner
It seems to me that having the Stars and Bars at the top of the page to represent the CSA is a bit like an article on the New England Patriots using "Pat Patriot" to represent the club. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Stainless Banner or perhaps the Navy Jack, since it's the most easily recognized Confederate symbol? Khan singh 21:55 18 November, 2006
[edit] I HATE VANDALISM!!!
I haven't been active in the wikipedia for very long, especially on this page, and I'm absolutely appalled by all the vandalism. Is it always this bad? --Clay
- It's on and off, it usually depends on the article's subject. Popular subject = lots of vandalism. That's my opinion at least. The admins of Wikipedia do a great job of blocking vandals, and it usually works to a point. I say to a point, because people find ways around a block: other computers, other user names, etc. Overall, Wikipedia is a fun place, try not to let the vandals get to you too much. RobJ1981 06:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed it is becoming more rampant, especially on the more popular pages. I monitor some 2,100 Civil War-related pages, and see vandalism on some really obscure articles, but the vast majority is concentrated on 5-6 major topics. Scott Mingus 11:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Review over
In a 4 to 1 vote, this article has been delisted from the Good Articles list, for a multitude of reasons. It might be faster to just check the review, archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 8 than for me to summarize it, each person voting against it seems to of had a different reason for it to fail each time :/. Homestarmy 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- Not really surprised that this has happened, since the causes for this war have been hotly debated and contested for years; even the so-called experts disagree. Not to mention that the causes listed are, by their nature, subjective. Due to the inflammatory nature of the causes, as a result of disagreements over what did or did not cause the war, they can never be neutral in content. --Clay 12:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
After reviewing the reasons this article was delisted, it seems likely we should:
- reduce the Regional economic differences section.
- look up what the best historians have to say about states' rights.
- add some more references.
- "prosify"? lists in Analysis of the outcome.
- try to explain that major historians mention slavery as a cause of the war, and that to do otherwise would not be encyclopedic.
So far, the lock has greatly reduced the number of "cranks" mentioned by one reviewer, and the "root cause" phrase was reworded. The Regional economic differences section was pruned a little and the State Rights section was expanded. More references were added throughout, the Analysis of the outcome lists were changed to prose paragraphs, and a sub-section was added to better explain why slavery was one of the causes of the war, since that wasn't done adequately before.
I don't remember McPherson, Catton, Nevins or even Shelby Foote saying that states' rights was the sole or main cause of the war, and the historical record (declaration of reasons for secession, Southern political speeches and editorials and so forth) when the deep South led the South in secession don't indicate that states' rights was seperate from the slavery issue, but that needs to be documented more.Jimmuldrow 16:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Nearly all present-day historians interpret history from the biased accounts of the historians from the late 19th century when the only historical perspective that was important was that of the North. For decades Confederate Veterans consistently upheld the reasons for the war in their publication "The Gray Book." This book, since it was from the POV of the South, was immediately dismissed, especially because it didn't concede that Slavery was the main cause or even a cause of the war. Even still today the Southern POV is discounted especially when it veers away from the Northern POV, which is consistently accepted as the only true history. Any historical account that holds slavery as being the primary reason or a direct cause of the war will always be inaccurate and subjective.--Clay 22:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I've read (from Stampp, if I remember correctly) that some of the leaders of secession (Davis and others) emphasized slavery when secession began and states' rights when the war was over. We're all trying to avoid bias.Jimmuldrow 15:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- President Davis never mentioned slavery in either of his inaugural addresses[2][3] as the reason for secession; although his more Senior, but less wise, Vice-President, Alexander Stephens, never took the hint that it wasn't in the best interest of the CSA to link its purpose for existing to slavery by mentioning it in his addresses. --Clay 17:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
That's mostly true, except for the brief comment about "warfare on the domestic institutions of the Southern States." The South wanted the support of England and France.Jimmuldrow 00:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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- In response to the note that was given with the new GA nomination of this article, i'd just like to point out that you've done nothing wrong by re-nominating it. Homestarmy 18:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Homestarmy. I greatly shortened the note.Jimmuldrow 19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Origins
I don't want to be too contrarian here, particularly given my fuss about recent major edits/deletions in the Abraham Lincoln article, but don't you think this article is going overboard on the causes of the war? After all, there is an entire subarticle on that subject, Origins of the American Civil War, which itself is 83K, and which is listed as the "main article" for this topic. Shouldn't this section primarily be a summary of that article, rather than trying to plow new ground? The subsection of this article on Causes is almost 5000 words long (30K of text without markup), which seems excessive for a topic that already has a lengthy subarticle. Hal Jespersen 01:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes I completely agree. The Origins page already covers it in sufficient depth, and the causes section could do with some judicious heavy pruning per WP:SS. I'd much rather spend most of my time reading about the war than wading through a lengthy discussion of the causes. Thanks. — RJH (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Most of the bloat is in response to what one person or another wants, including GA reviewers of this article mentioned above.Jimmuldrow 23:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] William C. Davis trilogy
Does anyone know if William C. Davis ever finished his trilogy on the Civil War, The Imperiled Union? In the intro to Deep Waters of the Proud, he said the third volume would be called Rebuke the Raging Winds, but I can't find it anywhere online... Brutannica 03:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] TOCright?
For many months, we've been formatting this article with the TOCright template. Then a user comes along and changes it, and when I revert to existing style, says this choice is "arbitrary." I have no stake in this and see the page as far more attractive with the TOC right as not. I've certainly not going to get into an edit war over it. What's consensus? BusterD 12:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- I prefer the TOCright option, although I don't know if there is any rule about it or not.Jimmuldrow 15:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- I also prefer the TOCright option, although the table of contents in this case is long enough to deserve its own sub article. :-) The Wikipedia policy on floating TOCs is at Wikipedia:Section#Floating the TOC. Hal Jespersen 15:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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- This isn't really worth talking about here. Said user has been removing TOCrights from all articles without reasoning (Rather than going to Templates for Deletion...), so it's not like there's a reason specific to the layout of this article being proposed for removal. SnowFire 04:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA passing
As I can tell, this is a comprehensive and well referenced article worthy of GA. Wiki-newbie 21:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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