Talk:Alternative words for British

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Is it worth mentioning that the term 'british' was originally used to mean 'brythonic speaking' (the welsh and cornish being referred to as british or their languages as the british tongue.) With the later use of british to mean everyone on this island being adopted and encouraged following the union with scotland, and the birtish project, at one point people were encouraged to call scotland 'north britain' and england 'south britain' so the term in its current meaning has been around quite a while. 131.111.8.102

"Ukulele"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! What do you think we are, a nation of George Formbys??? Ee, turned out nice again. Ha ha, never touched me! Lee M 02:03, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Mentions of these words have been around since the early days of the United Kingdom

The early days of the UK are a lot earlier than those of the US... (amused) Martin 01:43, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Btw, British isn't a demonym. You can't say "A british went into the bar". That's what a demonym is... Martin 01:53, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Were the terms Limey, Pom, Pommy, and Brit really coined as attempts to establish less ambiguous terms for United Kingdom nationals than the adjective British and the demonym Briton? Somehow I find that hard to believe... -- Oliver P. 05:23, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No they are not. DJ Clayworth 14:46, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've always thought that "Briton" was a slur on us Angles, Saxons, Normans, Danes and Jutes who also live in Britain....

Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Normans - the descendents of the very few of these people who actually migrated are now spread all over Britain and are Britons. I'm sure that the Danes who live in Britain are well aware that they're not native and can be respective of the term for their ethnic term :) Enzedbrit 09:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where the writer of this got his information. We already have a word for UK nationals, as opposed to people living in Britain. It's British. The others are, well, people living in Britain. DJ Clayworth 14:46, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What's "this" in this context? Martin 19:46, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I find the section on Proposed Alternatives hard to understand, and what I do understand appears to be wrong. 'British' in modern usage now pretty much refers to Citizens of the UK and its colonies. The colonies are few and far between, and many of them would be insulted if you implied that they were not British. Even in Northern Ireland I have never heard of a suggestion that British not be used to include all UK Citizens. Plus 'British Citizen' is used pretty frequently in official language to mean a citizen of the UK. DJ Clayworth 22:56, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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This article is on a UK topic and so should be called Alternative words for British (see List of words having different meanings in British and American English) Andy G 00:23, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

...Done it. (It was "Alternate words for British"). So call me pedantic. Andy G 18:02, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Pom as offensive 2 Sassenach 3 Alternatives for (Great) Britain etc... 4 Pom - Rhyming Slang derivative? 5 Limey 6 Brit and Britisher 7 Roast beef 8 Goddams 9 Brit

[edit] Pom as offensive

I removed the claim:

Although common, [pommy] is deemed highly offensive, the most offensive term that exists for a British person.

because it certainly isn't true here in Australia, where it is no more offensive than, say "Yank" for Americans. Where is it supposed to be "highly offensive"? Securiger 08:10, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is "Pom" at all offensive? Anyone using it intending to cause offence would most probably be met with mild ridicule for excessive Australianness. --Greg K Nicholson 05:54:42, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

Whover wrote the bit on "Pom" or "Pommy" did not do their homework and most probably has never lived in Australia. First of all, in Australia at least, it never refers to all Britons. It only refers to the English. Second, it is not offensive in and of itself. That is entirely driven by context. Potoroo 12:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The word pom IS offensive. It was coined to be offensive and has always been used to the detriment of British people. Not just English, although chiefly English, but British. In recent times people from elsewhere in Britain, and others, have said that the term only refers to English. This might be a way to avoid being labelled a pom and to escape the insult, and now we have the argument that it is only for English people, but this was not always so and the word remains a slight on all British people and should be avoided. The term is used to put down, bad mouth and belittle English and British people and is often accompanied with an expletive such as bloody, 'fucking', etc. To say now that it is not offensive is to say that when one calls a homosexual a faggot or dyke, one is purely being jovial and 'joking' or in reality levelling a compliment on someone, as I have seen people say with regards to Pom. Try being at the receiving end of the word during the dark days of post-assisted migration and you won't see the word as anything other than a smug reminder that Australian and Kiwi born people can really be nasty pieces of work. Enzedbrit 09:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone has added a bit about the word being used during the cricket. I have removed it as it is irrelevant to the debate. The word is used in many sporting events and contexts. Black footballers are called Monkeys at many sporting events too but that doesn't mean that it's used to support them. People can justify their prejudice until they're blue in the face, it's still prejudice. It's a fact that British people ARE quite reserved and polite and will often allow themselves to be thus insulted without raising a fuss. The irony is should one comment on the fact that 'pom' is not a nice word to use, they are liable to then be called a 'whinging pom'. How can a word that has done nothing but belittle people and keep them in their place since its inception now be 'okay to use'? It isn't. If you really need to find a word to refer to an English or a British person and aren't civil enough to use their first name, then try 'English' or 'British'. Enzedbrit 09:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, obviously you find Pom offensive, but the article should reflect the majority opinion if we can find any sources on this. Yes many British people won't raise a fuss, but I believe most British people aren't insulted by the word Pom, it just gives us a chance to laugh at the Aussies and their funny words. Maybe if British/English people were oppressed or whatever then slang words would be construed as offensive but our relationship with the Australians, in sport or whatever, is one of good natured rivalry. We are both countries that enjoy a joke and having a bit of a laugh at each other and pom is normally accepted as just part of this. As an Englishman I feel more abuse is recieved from welsh and particularly Scots than Aussies.137.138.46.155 09:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Very few of us Brits find 'Pom' offensive, but it depends who says it and how. Apart from Australians, nobody else on the planet could use a phrase like "How ya doin' you bloody whingeing pommie bastard" to your face as a term of endearment, and get away with it :-)160.84.253.241 13:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, actually, no. "Very few of us Brits" nothing. A lot of people recently arrived find nothing wrong with the word, as do many of the staid older generation who are so proud and decent people that nothing would phase them, but those of us who have lived through the 60s/70s, or in my case, grown up with the effects on children in the 80s, the term IS offensive, not nice, pretty darn nasty, and shouldn't be used. There is nothing pleasant in using a word which had always been a term of abuse, contained in which is so much power and derision, towards people today. I would have thought that we could rise above racial taunts. Nigger was a common word for black people in the United States and now has been recognised as offensive, when once it wasn't. Pom was always offensive - who now decides that it's okay? Next will I accept that 'dirty little faggot' is okay? I think not. And if an Australian ever called me a bloody whinging pommie bastard to my face, I'd deck the racist little s.o.b. That though is systematic of Australia and New Zealand, which are countries that determine their own worth not so much on how great they are for their achievements, but on how much they can rip down and belittle others. It's very sad and shows great insecurity. I don't like chink, I don't like hori, I don't like bung, and likewise pom just isn't okay. Anyway, the article is good now in that it reflects both viewpoints on the word.

For the record, it's interesting that Pom is seen so much now to refer solely to English people. By all accounts this has occured in the past few decades, I'd say as a way by Scots and Welsh to disassociate themselves from the word and also get in another blow against English people, in which case the previous contributor is correct, because although there is spite back and forth between England, Scotland and Wales, nobody would jump to defend the English, and everyone it seems would love to support anyone attacking England in such abuse. Again, very sad. I mean, we could be using our time tackling poverty, crime, climate change ...Enzedbrit 01:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops. OK, I'll re-phrase that. I do not find 'Pom' offensive in the least. I've never noticed Aussies ripping-down other people (unless they had it coming). Don't forget that poor Aus/N.Z. was on the receiving end of a tidal wave of moaning surly Brits that we here in Britain were only too glad to see the back of. They moaned continuously about Britain while they were here, then they moaned when they were not met with a red carpet and marching band when they got off the ship in Sydney. Sadly, some of them returned to the UK where they can now be heard whingeing about how much better-off they were in Australia. I think that we Brits got off lightly by just being called 'Poms'. I think that we deserved a far harsher nickname. I find that the best way to 'castrate' a nickname is to use it first to describe yourself, so I am happy to call myself a Pom / Limey / Bogtrotter / Rosbif first, before Johnny Foreigner gets the chance :-) You have had the admirable guts to do something similar on your home page, so why not stick 'Proud to be a Pom' up there too?160.84.253.241 09:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As for not noticing Aussies ripping down others, that’s of course your perception, as is your embracing of the racial insult which is the course of this thread. The UK is filled too with moaning Aussies and Kiwis who arrive, complain about the crowding, the weather, the food, never leave London and say they’ve ‘done Britain’. I cannot accept your spiel on Britons in the antipodes – it’s really very nasty, buying into the fuel that feeds the fire, and I’m sorry but I doubt that, if you are British, you feel much affinity with your people. I can’t imagine anyone being so self-hating. It’s beyond even the ribbing we’re renowned for giving ourselves. Were it not for stating what you have said about British people, I’d have assumed you quite a positive person. I compare that attitude to queer people phoning radio shows to agree with homophobic announcers that we have already been given too much equality and should learn to shut up and be grateful with what we’ve got. If you remember, or not, for New Zealand at least it was the efforts on the part of Britons in the trade unions that gave rise to so much of the ‘whinging’ association. ‘Pommie bashing’ and Anglophobia were also causes for many people to return to Britain. I read somewhere a few days ago a statistic that about 25% of British migrants returned to Britain in the post-war years and a main reason was discrimination and prejudice against them as people which nurtured greater homesickness. I’d no more state that I’m proud to be a ‘pom’ than I would be proud to be a ‘nigger’ were I a black person, but saying that, if I hear the term from friends when I know that they're joking with me, in a context that I could use similar loaded words, then that's different. Hearing on the sports news well-known anglophobic morons using the word left, right and centre to voice their derision is not pleasant. It’s good that you’re able to brush off criticism, racism, prejudice, but with the life I’ve had down here and having been on the receiving end of what I’ve received, and what I still witness to this day in the media and on the street, I won’t accept complacency in this matter. And the biggest irony? To stand up and state publicly what I've said? I become a 'whinging pom'. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=442420; http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/HistoryOfImmigration/16/en) Enzedbrit 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good grief. To equate the word 'Pom' with a term like 'nigger' or 'faggot' - and thus suggesting the same levels of social oppression and violent discrimination - is altogether offensive in itself to groups with a genuine history of suffering. Calling you guys 'Poms' is just the same as calling us Aussies 'convicts', which I assure you leaves none of us crying ourselves to sleep at night or rioting in the streets. I can only assume you don't have any siblings and that you don't recognise an established family tradition of affectionate teasing when you see it. Poor you. -- Alyssa George, Convict #AG1414

OK, we'll just have to agree to differ. I have only been to Oz once, and I was made very welcome (although it probably helped that I was in a navy uniform) as long as you can put up with a bit of ribbing and give some in return - it's just how Aussies are. I felt much more unwelcome in Scotland, where the feeling (among a minority) is not so good-natured. As for hating the British - well no. I am one...but I'm just being realistic. Like every other race on the planet: some of us are devils; some of us are saints, and most of us are somewhere in-between. You can't please all of the people all of the time, of course, but I generally find that the percentage of people who like you is in direct proportion to how likeable you are. If nobody seemed to like me, it would be easy to kid myself by believing that it was all only because of my race.160.84.253.241 07:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I added the Cricket Australia ruling, which at least gives us an 'official' verdict to disagree on. ;) --Hammer15 10:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice one, The problem is that we Poms in the UK don't actually have a deliberately-offensive term for Aussies. I don't know whether Poms living in Oz have any that I don't know about. We just call them 'Aussies' and their country either 'Oz' or 'Down Under' for short. There are some silly ones on 'Offensive Terms per Nationality', but I can honestly say that in my 49 years living in Britain I have never heard any of them. 'Lebs' is what Australians call somebody else, 'Fosters' is a rather feeble beer, and a 'Matilda' is a tank. One thing that strikes me about Wikipedia is the sheer number of nerds who sit in lonely attics making up this rubbish. I suppose 'Pom' is the same as any other word - there are two ways of saying it. Hopefully by the end of the cricket you/they will be putting "F*****g" in front of it, snarling it between clenched teeth and then spitting :-) 160.84.253.241 13:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

In my logged out opinion Pom is no longer offensive as it is one of those words where the 'insult' is not used in a jocular way. I know an English person who is offended, I also know many people, including myself who would not be. It is similar to the word 'Taff' for Welsh people, As a welsh person I am not offended at all. But some would be. That being said Australians and sometimes British people regularly use insults in conversation to close friends, nothing is meant by it anyway. Kind of like saying 'We are such close friends that we can use insulting words and not be offended'

Anyway the above is not relavent to the artical except to possibly say that there are a lot of differing opinions. so maybe the article should say that the word can sometimes be thought of as offensive, but is regularly used in a jocular manner.

I think that the word comes from the french word for potatoe anyway, can't be bothered explaining why.

Gosh! As an Australian living in Scotland, during my time in Australia I don't think I'd ever heard the word "Pom" ever used in an offensive context. It think it's all well and good to come up with a black and white answer as to whether it's offensive or not, but when it comes down to it, it's about the context between the utterer and the recipient. Constantly re-iterating that you feel offended by the term does not enhance your argument, it only serves to prove that you feel very offended by it, but only you. I would think that a majority of people I've encountered are not offended by the term. One could argue that I should be offended by the term "convict", since there certainly are no convicts in my ancestry, having chosen to emigrate to Australia. I think the only conclusive agreement we can come to here is that "it can be offensive to some people". To those that are offended, I would hope for your sake that eventually you would come around to a more updated understanding of the word in that it's commonly used in Australia as a term of endearment, and that you can always know when an Australian likes you, as he's probably insulting you as he's buying you a beer. -- Marcus 155.136.80.162 12:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sassenach

Although now a Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic colloquialism for the English, Sassenach (sometimes Sassanach) was a Pictish word to refer to a Saxon. The Welsh equivalent is Sais (plural Saeson). Anothern Scottish term was Southron from Middle English, also used during the Confederacy to refer to Southerners, and by J. R. R. Tolkien (see Southrons).

I removed that because the Scottish and Irish Gaelic words are not colloquial at all. And the word didn't come through Pictish. All the Celtic peoples call the English "Saxons" for some reason or another.

It doesn't really make sense in the Southron bit that it ever referred to British (people of the United Kingdom as whole), either.. Sounds like it refers to the English from the viewpoint of the Lowland Scots.

And Highlanders too refer to Lowlanders as Sassenachs. Enzedbrit 09:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternatives for (Great) Britain etc...

I've written a proposal for an article to give a clarification of terms like (Great) Britain, the British Isles, the UK and England (and whether Ireland has anything to do with any of these), including a section that deals with different names for the peoples of these regions, partly taken from the information contained here, so I thought I should point that out. User:DirkvdM/British Isles - Clarification of Terms DirkvdM 17:20, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

[edit] Pom - Rhyming Slang derivative?

Could 'pom' be derived from 'pommes frites' (rhymes with 'Brits'), just as the Australian term 'seppo' is derived from 'septic tanks' (rhymes with 'Yanks')? (submitted by Ringo Stalin)

It could be derived from many things. What matters is that the word is a term of offence and using it says a lot about the utterer. Enzedbrit 09:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limey

User:67.81.253.247 added that the term comes from the limestone of the White Cliffs. Since the White Cliffs are not limestone, the phrase grew up in the English-speaking not Francophone world, and I have never come across this before, it seems unlikely; however, if it's wanted, here's a suggested form of words which might be appropriate:

Another suggestion comes from the idea of [limestone rock] - the White Cliffs of Dover is the first sighting of the British Isles by sea from Europe across the Straits of Dover (the narrowest part of the Channel), hence the term "Limey" was supposedly attached to the inhabitants of the British Isles by seafarers. This is unlikely, since (a) the White Cliffs are chalk, not limestone, part of a continnuous stratum of chalk which extends across the Channel to Cap Gris Nez in France and (b) the term appears to exist primarily in the English-speaking world, most of whose major port of entry to Britain would have been Liverpool, Portsmouth or Southampton.

Isn't limestone and chalk the same thing or has the commentator above found some new variation on chemistry

The name of 'Limey' in relation to the English, derives from the fact that the Royal Navy used the fruit lime to prevent scurvy in its seamen, hence English being called 'Limey's'.

I did hear somewhere, but can't for the life of me find a reference now, that to ensure the crew got an adequate supply of limes, the officers used to lock them in a barrel labelled "Officers Only", and rely on the men's theiving nature to do the rest.NeilUK 13:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Folklaw suggest's the word/name 'Pom,Pommy' is derived from the early convicts, being literally 'prisoners of the motherland'

Alternative names for Britain............ - 'Old Blighty'

[edit] Brit and Britisher

'Brit' is not especially American or Australian (except perhaps in origin?). You hear it all the time in the UK too - and I don't know anyone who uses the word Briton much at all (except in writing). The only reason it may be considered less common in Britain itself is that British people would tend to say 'I met a Scottish/Welsh/English/Northern Irish bloke' than 'I met a Brit'. I suppose 'British bloke' might be more common in the singular too, but the plural 'Brits' happens often enough.

Also, is 'Britisher' really only restricted to India? I'm pretty sure I read that it's common enough in the US too. But that may not be true any more, I suppose. garik 12:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roast beef

I thought Anglais was the culinary term for roast beef. Is this another false etymology?--Joel 08:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goddams

Amother french term I thought but not mentioned GraemeLeggett 10:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brit

I don't mind pommy, redneck, limey, rosbif, fuck-off etc but don't like 'Brit'. Lots of people don't like being called Brits. I know the British press uses the term a lot but that doesn't mean that everybody likes it. Lots of black rappers use 'nigger' but most black people don't like it.GordyB 13:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree. In twenty years living in the USA, that was the only word/phrase i disliked hearing with regard to my origins (other than the people who simply didn't care about telling the difference between England, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and the British Isles). It still rubs me the wrong way, though i don't know why, just as Pom obviously does Enzedbrit. So i return here, home, and still hear and see it; oh well. Lindsay H. 15:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)