Talk:Altbier

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A translation of the song here would be a nice addition if anyone is capable of producing one. Deleuze 10:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International altbiers

Altbiers are made outside Germany. This is verifiable. Here's the thing -- it is not NPOV to point that out, and I don't see how it could be. The question is, is it made in any other country than the US? A UK alt would be worthy of mention as well. Haikupoet 23:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you see no difference between "altbier" and "in the style of altbier"? I do. In this article, as well as many, many others about foreign beers, the article often begins: "this is the beer of xxx. It is yyyy. In the US...."). I suggest you read this to understand my objection to this habit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus Mikebe 07:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• I think we maybe need a third-party mediator here. How exactly would one go about this? And incidentally, I don't know that there is always a meaningful difference -- if a beer is made in Vermont or Alaska according to a Düsseldorf recipe, using a known altbier yeast, is it not an altbier? The only beer I can think of where that distinction applies is Kölsch, which name is legally protected under German law and international treaty. Haikupoet 08:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you've read the FAQ link I posted, I don't understand why you still have a question. On your other point, I think we tend to look at this differently: I am not so much concerned with the law as with the impression it gives, especially among readers who have come here with little knowledge to begin with. If they see that an alt, for example, is brewed primarily in a certain region in Germany, but then see equal weight given to an "alt" brewed in the US, they can perhaps come to the logical conclusion that the two are essentially the same and why bother coming to Germany (where, as you probably know, it is served by gravity directly from casks, not from bottles) when they can just run down to the local beer emporium and pick up a bottle? That, I contend, is seriously misinforming the reader.

Mind, I am not saying that the American alt is a bad beer, just that it is different. And I would say the same for any beer brewed outside the specific region because, as you know, local water plays a major role in the taste of a beer. Mikebe 09:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been a long and thorough discussion of this topic on the beer project page. I brought it up there for two reasons: 1. the people who read that page are the people who contribute to the beer project and 2. this was not an issue specifically about altbier, but an issue that affects all non-US beer pages. We have reached a consensus: we will add to the article a sentence (or more) saying that this type of beer is brewed in other countries and attempt to list all those countries and we will replace the bjcp style links with a translation of a guide written and published by the German Brewers Association (Deutscher Brauer Bund). The majority of the editors feel that the bjcp is unreliable. I assume you are not pleased to read this, however, this is the consensus of the beer contributors. Mikebe 09:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, you assume incorrectly. While I still think the BJCP guidelines should be included, the DBB guidelines should take primacy. I think that's a perfectly fair compromise. Haikupoet 20:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I'm happy to hear that. As I said, the consensus is that the bjcp is unreliable. I fully agree with that consensus. This is an encyclopedia and accurate information is key. Including bjcp guidelines, compromise or not, runs counter to this goal. Mikebe 21:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • Okay, I hope the latest change is acceptable. I've put information on Dutch and US altbiers in one paragraph (separate from German examples) at the end of the regional section and included information on example brands from the US to complement the Dutch example. One question I do have though -- the book I have on Altbier history and recipes claims that Grolsch Amber is a Dutch altbier as well. Is this in fact true? Because if so I'd like to include it as another example brand. Haikupoet 00:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment

I have posted an RfC here in hopes of getting third-party comments to build a consensus on the issue of American sources and examples. I propose that all involved in this current content dispute stand down until there has been a significant number of third party opinions. Haikupoet 01:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am the primary other party here. While I think Haikupoet framed the RFC in an even-handed manner, I believe that the key element of the dispute is missing. The issue is not solely whether US POV is valid or not, it is that US POV is the only one given (aside from the local) despite the fact that other countries are also involved in the same activity. Mikebe 09:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Then isn't the solution simply to add other sources, rather than delete US sources? If this really is the issue, then please settle it by beefing this article up with additional sources. Beer is topical, and what a Wikipedia should be a great place to come for accurate and current information. Maybe add a "this article needs expanded tag," also add a references section to the bottom so the single reference is spelled out. While there are only US sources, add a note that there are only US sources, I believe there is even a tag for that, then remove it when the article is more international.

Is the song included in this under copyright?

There is a problem with reading beer articles before breakfast, I see. KP Botany 15:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)