Talk:Alpha Phi Alpha/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Neutrality?

This article appears to be more of a fan page than an encyclopedia article. Indeed, it appears to be a cut-and-paste of text appearing elsewhere on the web, such as [1].

I don't know anything about the subject, so I cannot edit it myself. Molinari 00:51, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be a copyvio from the fraternity's official website. Feco 19:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The first African American fraternity was Sigma Pi Phi, founded in 1904.[2] Sigma Pi Phi though was not founded to intially to be a collegiate fraternity. At some point prior to 1906 Sigam Pi Phi had some collegiate members, but they passed away and Sigma Pi Phi did not do this again. Sigma Pi Phi is extremely exclusive and secret so it is not well known. Alpha Phi Alpha was the first African American fraternity, which was started on the collegiate level and lasted to the present (supposidly there was one other before 1906, but it did not last long). --EhavEliyahu 00:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

(This bit initially appeared above, interspersed in my first comment. I have moved it here.)

Alpha Phi Alpha was not the first fraternity for blacks- its time that you all get it together and stop claiming titles that dont belong- for ex- how could fredrick douglas pledge A PHI A- when he was in his grave- im not a hater- just a nupe- a nupe that learned his history- get at me man
Mike Loyd, Vice Polemarch, Omicron Sigma Chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity

Mike: "Frederick Douglas Born a slave, Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, in Talbot County, Maryland, Frederick Douglass has been called the father of the civil rights movement. He rose through determination, brilliance, and eloquence to shape the American nation. He was an abolitionist, human rights and women's rights activist, orator, author, journalist, publisher, and social reformer. Committed to freedom, Douglass dedicated his life to achieving justice for all Americans, in particular African-Americans, women, and minority groups. He envisioned America as an inclusive nation strengthened by diversity and free of discrimination. Frederick Douglas died on February 20, 1895 at Cedar Hill after attending a women's rights meeting. He became an honorary member of Omega Chapter in 1921, enjoying the distinction of being the only member initiated posthumously. It is also noted that Douglas died before the founding of the Fraternity." Taken from [3]

Thanks for the input, Mike. As you clearly have detailed domain knowledge I encourage and urge you to make changes to the page yourself. Wikipedia is only as good as we, its users, make it. I know nothing of fraternities, and so cannot contribute to the page myself. Molinari 23:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask for the person(s) asserting copyvios to be specific about which text is copied. Obviously the Mission Statement would have to be verbatim since it cannot be someone's opinion. The link for Missouri State in the first comment is not working so I cannnot see what you're referring to. Please elaborate since no editor from the Wikipedia staff has found a need to indicate copyright violations as they have on other Wikipedia articles. Ccson October 26, 2005

When I added my comment in April the page included the text found here [4]. Clearly there have been many changes to the page since then, and the copied text no longer appears. Cheers. Molinari 16:50, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I went back to the history pages and found the text, it does appear to have cut and pasted. I have provided much of the content to this page, but not that text and it should have been removed. Thanks for providing the basis for your comment. Ccson October 26, 2005


Mike no disrespect but you embaking on some history that has nothing to do with you. You gave the answer to your own qusetion by stating Frederick Douglass became a honorary member. Why would you raise a question you already know the answer to? I'll agree with you to a certain point about history. You are right Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. is not the first black greek letter organization because we are not greek (you wouldn't understand this). However, to you and everyone else we are. Since you say you know history, then you would know that we are the first black collegiate fraternity. Everyone else started off as a social group just as we did. I guess you will be trying to say that you all where first in 1903(once again a social group not a fraternity). Since we are still on history if this was the case why did it only take us a year to be incorporated as a fraternity and you all 8 years (big difference for us not to be first). Also, not to ruffle any feathers about this history that you claim you know but if wasn't for the men of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. you would not be in existance for example a couple of your founders were online to be Alphas (you know who went to Howard), for two you all were founded at Indiana University which members of social group (KAN) sent a letter of intent to became the tenth chapter Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc., which just happens to be the Kappa chapter of Alpha which called themselves the New members(capital letters look familiar doesn't it), and last but not least on this brief history lesson if it wasn't for us writing and signing a check for you all, ask yourself, "Where would you be without Alpha?" P.S. Before you talk about history get your weight up.

Brian Robinson, Beta Pi Chapter da FIRM of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Incorporated

Do they Allow White People?

--220.238.70.149 10:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

  • According the the Wikipedia article, "it has been interracial since 1945." Dystopos 14:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

All men from all races are eligible for membership. Ccson 15:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

When I was at Cornell (mid-90s), a friend of mine who was in this fraternity told me that there were more white guys in traditionally black fraternities than there were black guys in the ostensibly non-racially based frats, which I found interesting. --Jfruh 02:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Name Change

Can we change the name of this article to Alpha Phi Alpha? It will match the other names of the majority of National Pan-Hellenic Council member organizations. Ccson 15:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


Where is there an Alpha phi Alpha chapter in Vietnam? Where are the sources?? 24.239.149.9 14:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"Second oldest Greek-letter organization for African American men"

This "anti-hazing" website on Tripod (which allows ANYONE to set up a webpage) is used as an official source by user Bobbydoop (who has a controversial history of editing articles) for the statement that Alpha Phi Alpha is the "second oldest Greek-letter organization for African American men" when that website produces no verifiable, primary sources for that statement. The official website for the fraternity states, "Alpha Phi Alpha, the first intercollegiate Greek-letter fraternity established for African-Americans, was founded at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York."Akhenaton06 03:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

This guy is a vandal and is using multiple accounts to attack many different pages. Just revert his edits. Tfine80 03:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hazing

Once again, user Bobbydoop is continuing to use a Tripod article (that ANYONE can set up) as a verifiable source about hazing within the fraternity; that section of the article is also very biased. I have included the fraternity's official anti-hazing statement instead but Bobbydoop continues to use the "anti-hazing" website as a verifiable source when it does not cite verifiable, primary sources. What this guy is doing amounts to vandalism.Akhenaton06 03:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


can you dispute any of the hazing incidents? huh 06? i doubt it! Bobbydoop 03:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The burden of proof doesn't rest with me, Bobbydoop. If you are making this claim and cite a source, then that source should be 1) verifiable and 2) give primary references. The "anti-hazing" site (a TRIPOD site) does neither. What I provided as an alternative is the fraternity's policy on hazing, while at the same time acknowledging that the organization still struggles with this issue. Not only does the hazing section of the article contain misspelled words (which is a VERY BAD reflection on the fraternity), but it is very biased ("black on black crime"?). I'm sorry if you were denied membership in the organization or have some other issue with the fraternity (and it certainly seems like that, as you have not added a "hazing" section to any other NPHC fraternity articles), but Wikipedia is not a launchpad for your personal vendettas. Akhenaton06 09:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


There is a hazing issue and that seems to be a strong source of verified information. If you contest information please refute it with any kind of source primary or otherwise. 152.163.100.13 13:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, you conveniently overlook the real issue here. The issue is not about whether hazing exists in the fraternity; it's about the source you cite in regards to this (which is not verifiable, nor does it cite primary sources). Also, I have cited the fraternity's OFFICIAL position on hazing in the hazing section which you conveniently deleted. As I've stated before, Wikipedia is not the place for you to launch personal vendettas against organizations that you have problems with for one reason or another. Akhenaton06 23:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

First or Second

bobbydoop's original reference indicates that the first college fraternity for african american men was established in 1906, yet he keeps referring to ALpha Phi Alpha as the second oldest fraternity. this page should reflect what the fraternity official website indicates since it should be considered the leading authority on it's own history and it concurs with what on the link that bobbydoop has listed as a reference.

Can we get a Wikipedia editor to come in settle this so the page doesn't keep changing? Ccson 04:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity (commonly known as ΑΦΑ, pronounced A-Phi-A, but also Alphas and A-PHI) is the second oldest Greek letter fraternity founded for African American men in the United States [5]. Bobbydoop 04:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Boobbydoop, your original reference which you have now removed because it doesn't serve your purpose states that it wasn't until 1906 that the FIRST college fraternity for african american men was established. 67.34.213.68 04:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's resolve this

Bobbydoop, why do you consider the state that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first collegiate college fraternity to be incorrect? It's in the reference that you quote and this is synonomous with the Alpha official website.


Sigma Pi Phi has college chapters and was founded before A PHI A. A PHI A isn't just college, they take honorary's , graduate, and non college individuals. thus they aren't purely inter collegiate. Bobbydoop 04:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

And because they take graduates and non college individuals doesn't make A Phi A a professional fratrnity no more than it makes Sigma Pi Phi a collegiate fraternity. it's a professional fraternity with chapter on certain campuses. Do you dispute your own source that the first college fraternity wasn't founded until 1906? Further, Universities routinely give out honoray doctorates and JD degrees to non college persons, that doesn't change their status to anything than what they originally were "a university". same for Alpha Phi Alpha, it's a collegiate fraternity and always has been since 1906. Ccson 04:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


Alpha Phi Alpha isn't a university. Sigma Pi Phi and A PHI A are both African american fraternities. I am not saying that A PHI A isn't the first to be founded at a school, i'm saying that it isn't the first Fraternity. I believe that people should know it is the second fraternity for african americans. What i'm saying is true and is verified. 152.163.100.13 04:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That's your personal opinion, not a fact. You can state that on your own website and/or you can add a page for Sigma Pi Phi that it's the oldest fraternity for african amercian men if you have nothing else to occupy yourself. Also, you still haven't addressed the content of your own reference that states Alpha was the first college fratenity. Ccson 05:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


  • 1) Sigma Pi Phi was founded by 6 professional men, all of whom had already graduated from college. Alpha Phi Alpha was founded by 7 college students.
  • 2) Sigma Pi Phi's initial purpose was to provide social networks for professional men, not college students. Alpha Phi Alpha was strictly collegiate-based when founded.
  • 3) What proof is there of Sigma Pi Phi having collegiate chapters (once again, Bobbydoop, the burden of proof rests with you)? There is a difference between having college students in the fraternity and having collegiate chapters.
  • 4) At any rate, Alpha Phi Alpha was the first fraternity founded for African American college men that successfully spread to other college campuses beyond Cornell. Sigma Pi Phi was founded for professional men. Although each began to expand beyond their initial targeted groups, that doesn't dispute that fact that Alpha Phi Alpha was the FIRST (inter)collegiate fraternity founded FOR African American men.

Akhenaton06 10:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you say first INCORPORATED Fraternity? -- Bearly541

Proof

Alpha Phi Alpha - Sigma Pi Phi. This individual is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. Alpha Phi Alpha was founded in 1906. The fraternity call is 06. That is where Akhenaton06 gets the 06 in his name. Alpha Phi Alpha many times attempts to make the dubious claim that they are in fact the first African American Fraternity http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/Alpha.Phi.Alpha.td.html, http://www.tlu.edu/student_life/activities/organizations/greek.html, http://www.stillman.edu/stillman/GreekOrg/apa.html. This is quite wide spread There are members of Sigma Pi Phi who are members of Alpha Phi Alpha as well i.e. Martin Luther King [6] . Akhenaton06 is attempting to continue on the dubious type claim that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first black fraternity. Most people reading it would simply assume that that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first black fraternity, assuming that all fraternities ignoring the inter collegiate part.

I have provided 5 websites
 which are

1) http://www.nndb.com/org/244/000053085/ 2) http://www.gentsclub.org/sigma_pi_phi.htm, 3)http://www.msstate.edu/org/nphc/to%2015%20faq.htm 4) http://alphaphialpha.truman.edu/AboutGreeks.htm 5) http://www.unityfirst.com/pressreleaseboule.htm

Which all agree that the founding of Sigma Pi Phi is in 1904, 2 years before that of Alpha Phi Alpha. At least 3 of them specifically state that Sigma Pi Phi is the first Black fraternity of any kind nationwide. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia for the promotion of the truth. By allowing a continued effort to rail road rather then spread knowledge simply undermines the integrity of Wikipedia.

I propose since the above individuals aren't protesting the validity of the information of the founding of Sigma Pi Phi, that a compromise be made. Where the wording would be:

Sigma Pi Phi is the first fraternity founded by and for African American's nationwide (1904). Alpha Phi Alpha is the first fraternity founded by African Americans at a college (1906).

This would allow for a clear understanding by any and all readers as well as a balance.

this seems to be a fair compromise. can a agreement be made? 152.163.100.13 13:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not an article about Sigma Pi Phi--someone can create this article and use the first suggestion as part of their history. There's nothing wrong or confusing about stating your place or contribution to history--each person would read First Black Collegiate Fraternity. Each fraterntiy page would need to enter the Phi Beta kappa info and Sigma Pi Phi info noted below to make eveyone clear. Each fraternity article should speak for itself, not describe the history of other organizations or how it relates to other organizations. If alpha phi alpha was not the first college fraterntity there might not have been other african american college fraternities. There's a good chance in the early 1900s that the founder of Alpha Phi Alpha had no knowledge of local professional fraternity in Philadelphia when Alpha was founded 2 years later in Ithaca, and thus was not the impetus for Alpha's founding. The fraternity looked at other intercollegiate service fraternities. Ccson 17:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Phi Beta Kappa began the fraternal movement, and Sigma Pi Phi began the black fraternal movement.  [7]

I challenge Bobbydoop to find any verifiable, reliable source that claims that Alpha Phi Alpha is the oldest fraternity for African American men. The claim of Alpha Phi Alpha has always been that it is the first intercollegiate fraternity for African American men. As has been stated SEVERAL times, this article is not about Sigma Pi Phi; it is about Alpha Phi Alpha. Akhenaton06 23:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


These sites claim it, A phi A is the oldest. One being Cornell the founding school of A phi A

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov05/Alpha.Phi.Alpha.td.html, http://www.tlu.edu/student_life/activities/organizations/greek.html, http://www.stillman.edu/stillman/GreekOrg/apa.html


This travesty of the truth needs to be ensured to be correct. Thus Alpha Phi Alpha should be stated as beign the second oldest fraternity founded by african americans. 24.239.149.9 06:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The Cornell website listed is a news service and it's only the headline that you disagree with. Contact this news service and have them correct the heading. The first sentence in the article is Alpha Phi Alpha, the nation's first Greek collegiate organization established by black students at Cornell in 1906, and that sentence agrees with the official fraternity website (and probably where the service got the sentence), and what most contributors in wikipedia want printed--the word "collegiate" is what's missing from the headline. Bobbydoop writes several times here that Alpha Phi Alpha many times attempts to make the dubious claim that they are in fact the first African American Fraternity, he conveniently omits the word "collegiate" (to confuse the mediation team and readers), which is included in all contributors text. Alpha Phi Alpha does claim to be the first intercollegiate fraternity established for African American men, notice the bold word "intercollegiate", and this is true. The question here is: "What is false about the first sentence in the cornell article? The question is NOT how someone else would same the same thing differently. (Logic: There are three children, Dick, Jane and Sally. Dick was born first, Jane second. If Jane says she is the first daughter, this is true; she also the middle child and the second child. You can't say if she chooses one over the other this confuses you, so you think she should describe herself in a manner which appeal to each indiviual reader.. 67.34.213.68 16:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


Lets look at the bold headline. Also lets look at the other websites. Alpha Phi Alpha is the second fraternity founded by African American's. Point blank. Let's not sway from the absolute truth. Let's not attempt to use varies degrees of semantics to give off the appearance of a falsehood. 24.239.149.9 17:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The other websites are Univeristy websites and the content is controlled by that webmaster. Send them an email to correct. the official source for this article should beAlpha Phi Alpha website, if other sites don't concur, then they should be emailed the official word of the fraternity. 67.34.213.68 03:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The bold headline is picked by the editor, not the writer who verified the accuracy of the text, or the people contributing to the entire story. No one is asking that a headline be used as a reference (except bobbydoop). Again, the question is: What is the falsehood in the first sentence of the cornell online news article you reference? Please just answer this question. 67.34.213.68 22:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


Alpha Phi Alpha has a biased POV for PR reasons. The hazing issue should not be downplayed. Also the question was asked as to whether or not they could find it anywhere that A PHI A was shown to be the first black fraternity. Multiple sources were found for the claim. Now you say "oooh" it's an editor issue or a webmaster issue. Please! That's simply a shotgun defense b/c you can't make a better argument. So please spell university correctly and understand that Alpha Phi Alpha is the second fraternity of it's type. Don't try to use semantics to make yourself seem like the original. It isn't! 24.239.149.9 20:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Here should be you answer: The History of Sigma Pi Phi (1954) written by who? The History of Alpha Phi Alpha Written by who? which was he a member of? BOTH. Is Sigma Pi Phi known as the "fraternity" or the Bolle'?

Who, above is Charles H. Wesley and in The History of Alpha Phi Alpha, the first sentence on Page V entitled "Preface to the First Edition", is as follows:

In preparing this book the author has endeavored to present in readable form the main facts about the history of the oldest Greek letter fraternity organized originally for black college men.

.

Sigma Pi Phi is a fraternity, however; they are commonly referred to as the Boulé. Ccson 17:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

agreement

Anyone can create any information and state it as fact. You and I both know that Sigma Pi Phi is the first black fraternity of any kind founded and still surviving in the United states. The Wikipedia page allows for links to be made and is not owned by Alpha Phi Alpha. It is an indendent page. Each fraternity article should present a whole story. Regardless of whether or not Alpha Phi Alpha had a knowledge of another black greek organization doesnt take away from the fact that one existed. Thus this information should either be what the compromise states or should be kept as

Alpha Phi Alpha is the second oldest surviving black greek letter organization.

This is a stated fact and has been verified numerous times. 205.188.116.65 17:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Then you need to determine when each fraternity of any kind was created and state whether it was first, second, third, or 305th. What one fraternity is does not mean that another fraternity was not something else. The articles you referenced are not official Alpha Phi Alpha publications and you should contact those sources to correct their information. The fact that the fraternity says they are the First College Fraternity for African American men is true. Ccson 18:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC) ´

Alpha Phi Alpha isn't just for individuals in college. They have members who never went to college. 24.239.149.9 17:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Mediation

I am the Cabal mediator. You'll have my answer soon. Meanwhile keep yourself cool. Bonaparte talk 13:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not an article about Sigma Pi Phi or Phi Beta Kappa and how they relate to any other fraternity. It's one fraternity's singular history of who they are and what they started on college campuses. Ccson 17:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Please see Bobbydoop's own reference [8] which indicates Alpha Phi Alpha was the first black collegiate fraternity, it says nothing about being second. Bobbydoop is no longer using this reference since this was pointed out to hime and no longer supports his personal preference for "second". Ccson 19:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

have you read it properly? 205.188.116.65 19:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Bobbydoop has updated his own website [ [9] since my last message when I pointed out that he was rejecting his own claim that Alpha was the first college chapter. It clearly said "first college fraternity for blacks" because I copy/pasted into this discussion. You can't quote yourself then change your mind and then expect to be a referenced authority on something. Please reject his claim since he is changing data to promote his own agenda of what should be printed. If it not his website, he knows the person who makes the updates. Ccson 21:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
please lets starts using valid reasonable arguments based on proof and reasoning. if you can't do that then you shouldn't be here. you shouldn't simply utilize information that doesn't have any verification. I feel that you should use evidence to refute my evidence. if not then lets come to some sort of agreement or compromise. 152.163.100.13 23:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


knowledge isn't singular. One fraternity doesnt exist in a vacuem. One reference that is listed on the Alpha Phi Alpha page on Wikipedia is Mason, Herman "Skip", Jr., The Talented Tenth: The Founders and Presidents of Alpha , 1991, 2005
One website that was referred was skip mason's website where he states that Sigma Pi Phi is the first Black greek organization. This website is for the understanding and collection of knowledge. This isn't the dark ages. Suppression is quite unncessary. 205.188.116.65 17:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
It doesn't have to exist in a vaccum, you can write an extensive article on Sigma Pi Phi of which you seem to have a veritable warehouse of knowledge about in addition to your obsessing over this fraternity's history. Ccson 18:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd prefer to place this relevant information here. Do you have any alternative ideas? or are you going to continue to BS while the information stays up? 205.188.116.65 19:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

What's relevant is that every website or reference, even your own [10] indicates Alpha Phi Alpha is the first college fraternity for blacks. No where, other than places you have edited, is Alpha listed as second oldest. Ccson 19:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
that's not my website, though it's a good reference. Will you agree to any compromises or will this page continue to be locked? 205.188.116.65 19:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

compromise

Can you both parts make a compromise? It seems to me that are two users with two approaches. My role here is to provide you a good frame for you to discuss and reach an agreement. I will urge you to start negociation and reach a compromise solution. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_rules I will press you. That's why I give you a deadline. You must be openminded and respectful of other's opinions and what is said here stays here. I presented a deadline to reach consensus for the issue (tomorrow (2nd of January 2006 )until 21.00 UTC) so either he will take it or leave it. Bonaparte talk 11:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. Let's see what you have said here. Bonaparte talk 17:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The hazing issue should stay b/c even if it is stated to not be supported by the organization it does occur. Like Gang Violence isn't supported by the city of los angelas it still occurs. I feel that it should also be expanded on and speak about the cases of hazing where it brought about major changes in the organization. 24.239.149.9 20:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
The issue of the first black fraternity is basically a moot point. I have provided layers of evidence and answered the vast majority of their questions and arguments only for them to attempt to pick it apart. They haven't made any strong arguments or even back it up with evidence. Sigma Pi Phi is the known first black fraternity. Alpha Phi Alpha is the second black fraternity. I have provided evidence of this. Allowign for a change in semantics only helps to bring out and expand on ignorance that is for some reason plaguing many groups on the net (such as some of the websites listed above). Wikipedia is for the promotion of the truth and this is a truth which is self evident. 24.239.149.9 20:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not here to correct problem with other websites, but to ensure that the information contain on this website is correct. My compromise is we take the cornell news article reference provided by bobbydoop, and that the bold headline Nation's first black objected by boobdoop not be used, but the text nation's first Greek collegiate, verified by the writer, be used, which is correct and not refuted by anyone for its accuracy. 67.34.213.68 01:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding "Hazing", this issue exists in all fraternities and not begun by Alpha Phi Alpha. My compromise here is that the proper place for expanded text should be on the hazing article and/or the Fraternities and sororities article, or in fairness as not to appear biased, the contributor should be required to add this to each fraternal organization's article. 67.34.213.68 02:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Totally disagree. He is offering no compromise. Compromise number 2 is to state that Alpha Phi is the second oldest surviving black fraternity in the nation. There are numerous articles that give dubious claims due to being totally misinformed. There are number of chapters of Alpha Phi Alpha who continue to misinform others such as http://www.stillman.edu/stillman/GreekOrg/apa.html claiming that Alpha Phi Alpha is the first, when it is not. The intercollegiate is rather dubious b/c Alpha Phi Alpha has many members who never attended college such as Duke Ellington http://www.dukeellington.com/about/bio.htm as well as Frederick Douglass http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p1539.html . If you'd like to the actual first inter collegiate black fraternity that would actually go to Alpha Kappa Nu http://web.umr.edu/~kapsi/publications/History%20of%20Kappa%20Alpha%20Psi.htm which was founded in the year 1903 http://copland.udel.edu/stu-org/nuxinupes/grandchapterhistory.html . So the first inter -collegiate is really a moot point.
In terms of the hazing. It does not exist in all fraternities and sororities. It may not have begun with Alpha Phi Alpha but it permeates the fraternity to the point where it is officially stated that individuals must not do it. There are numerous cases of hazing that specifically involve the fraternity where many have died or become seriously injured http://www.anti-hazing.com/ . Many are repressed but there are far to many that have become public knowledge. A few of the more heinous cases should be detailed and spoken about if they directly relate to the organization. Thus this should be expanded on. 24.239.149.9 15:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Bobbydoop is not compromising but offering the same text that is currently in the ariticle, and being disputed. He offer no website that states A-Phi-A is the "second", just his own opinion of what should be printed here. Again, we're not concerned with other sites, just wikipedia. The text "first intercollegiate fraternity for african americans" is not misleading or confusing, and still not refuted by anyone, and verifiable in his own references. Regarding "intercollegiate", the frat is listed in the Category:United States student societies, but, the text is referring the historical account that it was the "first intercollegiate greek-letter fraternity for african amercian men when it was founded in 1906". So to address his concern, perhaps the comprise can be first intercollegiate fraternity for african amercians when established in 1906. The Kappa Alpha Psi article here and their official website states they were founded in 1911. I guess you're going to change their page now. BTW mediators, the tripod website he referenced has changed again to coincide with his changing theories in the guise of proof. It now contains the sentence "first black college fraternity" I said was removed on Dec 29 and he asked if I read it carefully after it was changed, and now contains a new sentence that "Kappa Alpha Nu was founded in 1903", which was not there before.
Hazing is not limited to fraternities, it occurs in the military, sports, etc. and the intent to only expand in this article is biased. The tripod webite discuss hazing in Omega Psi Phi, however, the contributor has not updated that article with this information or even adressed hazing in other fraternites, just A-Phi-A. Ccson 17:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I've said all I can on this issue. My compromise again is first intercollegiate greek-letter fraternity for african amercians when established in 1906. and no more info on hazing. I await the decision of the mediators. Thank you. Ccson 17:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Alpha Kappa Nu http://web.umr.edu/~kapsi/publications/History%20of%20Kappa%20Alpha%20Psi.htm which was founded in the year 1903 http://copland.udel.edu/stu-org/nuxinupes/grandchapterhistory.html . Kappa Alpha Psi and Alpha Kappa Nu are 2 different fraternities as a whole. The website spoke of the existance of another fraternity that existed before them, and that fraternity is Alpha Kappa Nu It was the first inter collegiate fraternity founded for and by black men. 2 points of reference show this. So how could Alpha Phi Apha be the first one when there is one that was founded before them? Do the fact not mean anything? If you look at the links provided they show that this is the case. I am totally disputing the fact and the claim at this point of A Phi A being the first inter collegiate black fraternity.
Other fraternities have hazing as well, but not as flagrant as those that occurred in Alpha Phi Alpha! He never disputes the flagrant nature of the hazing. Also it should be stated in the article that Alpha Phi Alpha chapters aren't suppossed to hold pledge lines. People are voted in. Ccson makes the claim that the reference website isn't updated but then makes another claim that there are recent changes??? How is that possible? I'd like the websites provided to be looked into. I'd also like to have a re evaluation. 24.239.149.9 18:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I read the last update and I can't see where I said the tripod website does not change, if I did, its a typo of typing to fast, but the tripod site might change again based on what I say now. The tripod website contains this text Did you know? The second name of Kappa Alpha Psi was Kappa Alpha Nu, but was changed after they gained the nick name Kappa Alpha N1gga! The first name of KAY was Alpha Omega! [11], which suggest that Kappa Alpha Nu and Kappa Alpha Psi are the same, however; this site could change now that I pointed this out. Plus, whether they are the same or separate, the link he provides that KAN was first links to a student chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi, and it states that this organization was a "CLUB", not a "FRATERNITY", there is a difference, that's why they mention it.. Ccson 19:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Alright CCson... is Alpha Kappa Nu the same as Kappa Alpha Nu???? NO! IS the order of the letters different?? YES! IS it the same group? NO! Thus, your reference to Kappa Alpha PSi is irrelevant and flat out wrong and illogical. Also a fraternity is a type of club. Now lets go to the dictionary and find out what a fraternity is ... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fraternity .
A body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild.

A group of people joined by similar backgrounds, occupations, interests, or tastes: the fraternity of bird watchers. A chiefly social organization of men students at a college or university, usually designated by Greek letters. Roman Catholic Church. A sodality. The quality or condition of being brothers; brotherliness.

Alright, now that you you've read this. Can you please present a stronger argument or simply accept the fact that Alpha Phi Alpha is the second inter collegiate black fraternity and the 2nd oldest surviving black fraternity. Now that this has been established. Let's move on.24.239.149.9 00:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
This is truly unfair being that Alpha Kappa Nu http://web.umr.edu/~kapsi/publications/History%20of%20Kappa%20Alpha%20Psi.htm which was founded in the year 1903 http://copland.udel.edu/stu-org/nuxinupes/grandchapterhistory.html . Kappa Alpha Psi and Alpha Kappa Nu are 2 different fraternities as a whole. The website spoke of the existance of another fraternity that existed before them, and that fraternity is Alpha Kappa Nu It was the first inter collegiate fraternity founded for and by black men. I have provided 2 points of reference to show this. So how could Alpha Phi Apha be the first one when there is one that was founded before them? Do the fact not mean anything? If you look at the links provided they show that this is the case. I am totally disputing the fact and the claim at this point of A Phi A being the first inter collegiate black fraternity. I have provided 2 places that show that it isn't! Other fraternities have hazing as well, but not as flagrant as those that occurred in Alpha Phi Alpha! Ccson makes the claim that the reference website isn't updated but then makes another claim that there are recent changes??? How is that possible? I'd like the websites provided to be looked into. I'd also like to have a re evaluation. 24.239.149.9 00:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


This came from Wikipedia own website so we are the first and don't forget it. Kappas and others just face it.

The fraternity may have begun in 1903 on the Indiana University campus, but there were too few registrants to assure continuing organization. In that year a club was formed called Alpha Kappa Nu, but the club disappeared after a short time. There is no record of any similar organization at Indiana until the fraternity was founded as Kappa Alpha Nu on the night of January 5, 1911 by ten African-American college students

Pledging

NO Pledging Allowed. Pledging is against the purposes and goals of the Fraternity and has been discontinued as a condition or manner of initiation into the membership of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. It is no longer legal within Alpha Phi Alpha for members to establish a “pledge line” or to require aspirants to the organization to submit to “hazing”. All membership intake activities for the Fraternity are conducted by the National Intake Office and occur in the presence of a National Intake Officer.

This is very noteworthy and necessary. 24.239.149.9 14:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to thank you all for your efforts and willing to have a better article on Alpha Phi Alpha. I would like also to emphasize an important aspect so that this article to express a good neutral point of view. Any change that you make must reflect this agreement. Now, I hope you will all engage in a good constructive approach. I can't tell you exactly what words can you use there but you have to try to find the best one. No more revert war. Bonaparte talk 16:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with inter collegiate. This has to do with the fact that membership isn't limited to individuals in college or having attended college. Alpha gives it's memberships to individuals whom have achieved distinction (regardless of academic accomplishments) 24.239.149.9 17:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Again, this is an individual opinion which should be expressed on an individual website. Wikipedia has determined that intercollegiate is an accurate description. Membership is not just based on scholarship; the fraternity's principle are manly deeds, scholarship, and love for all mankind. We also recognize individual who provide a great service since we're a service fraternity. Ccson 19:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
As I said before this has nothing to do with intercollegiate. It is not against any talk discussion to place the fact that an individual never attended college. 24.239.149.9 19:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
This may be added. You may add that remark. Bonaparte talk 19:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
He made more changes than just the remark approved. Ccson
Mediator, look at the article history page when bobbydoop summary indicates his reason for adding the sentence: 00:39, 3 January 2006 24.239.149.9 (necessary to illustrate the false hood claimed of being an inter collegiate organization.). Now he's saying it has nothing to do with being intercollegiate. This guy has no integrity in his own work or words, and spins on a dime in order to get his way. Anyone going to Duke Ellingtons page will see that he never attended college, and this should be removed from the page. Ccson 02:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit Request

He has added more than you authorized and reverted my changes again and continues to insert information that is not particular to the national fraternity of which this article is based on, not individual chapters (like the brown paper bag test performed only in Washington D.C. according to his referenced website.

  1. He has removed the picture of the founders saying that i should put it on a separate page. Pictures are in many articles and no one can determine where one is more appropriate.
  2. He's just picking at anying such changing "Honored" to "Notable" in the "notable alphas" section, I got "Honored" from the us postal web site, this has been like this for weeks.
  3. He's added (honorary)after members, and added Marion Barry who does not have a commemorative stamp.
  4. MLK was NOT an honorary member; he was duly initiated into the Sigma Chapter at Boston University and I want to make this change.
All done to cast a shadow on the group. I would like to put it back to the previous approved version if that's okay and that you instruct him not to revert.
I would also like to add this text regarding Frederick Douglas, He became an honorary member of Omega Chapter in 1921, enjoying the distinction of being the only member initiated posthumously. here is the website proof [12]Ccson 02:00, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
We can determine where pictures go and where it shouldn't. If you got honored from the USPS website then you shouldn't be copying it. There is a no copyright rule. Marion Barry is an notable member. How do you know that Mr Douglas would have wanted to be a member? Making someone a member ( or doing something) against their wishes is akin to slavery. 24.239.149.9 04:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The USPS section was changed b/c there are more notable individuals than what appears on stamps. THere is a sentence dedicated to the USPS to make amends. The paper bag test was a part of Alpha membership at an elite chapter and is a strong part of it's history. I've offered for him to place the list of alpha's pictures on another section or page being that they've done nothing significant to help humanity, not like MLK or Dubois. 24.239.149.9 08:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. You're not supposed to be changing other contributors text to make amends, it's rude. if the text is correct, you can't rewrite to make your own point. Plus, the notable sectin doesn't have to be one paragraph, you could have added a separate sentence with totally rewriting someone else's work.
  2. I can re-print text if I provide the reference which I did.
  3. regarding Douglass, I'm only requesting that history be provided, not questioning what was done 20 years ago; the fact it happened is all that matters in reporting.
  4. You can't determine by yourself that a picture be removed because it rude, it has to be a consensus or approved by the Mediator, both of which you didn't get permission. Ccson 13:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit approved

Ccson can edit the changes that he asked for. Bonaparte talk 17:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I made the changes you approved and they were summarily reversed within 5 minutes. no one else is following the rules of getting permission to add or delete information. What can be done to restore the changes I implemented. I don't want to revert, because the revert war will start again. the sentence I was approved to add concerning douglass say he was initiated posthumously, plust I added a link to wiktionary, that in of it says he had no knowledge. anything else is unnecessary language. Bonaparte, can you revert the page so that everyone will know this is ground zero version and all other edits must come through you. The user below has already the sentence requested before you approved it.Ccson 18:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Requesting that the pictures be removed of the jewels and that it be duly noted that Mr. Douglas never approved of his membership in such an organization. 64.12.116.13 18:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

"Notable Alphas" section

Firstly, MLK was NOT an honorary member; he was duly initiated into the Sigma Chapter at Boston University (source). Secondly, why does Bobbydoop (who won't even sign in to edit) keep adding the fact that Marion (with one "r") Barry was arrested for smoking crack in the past as a parenthetical comment? We can read about Mr. Barry in the Wikipedia article about him; it doesn't need to be stated on the page itself and is irrelevant to the section. Akhenaton06 08:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

noting what made him a notable member of the fraternity. 24.239.149.9 08:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
What made him a notable member is the fact that he was the mayor of one of the major cities of the U.S., the nation's capital, not the fact that he was arrested for smoking crack. At any rate, you do not have information about other notable Alphas concerning what "made them notable," so why the negative comment about Barry? Also, this information can be accessed by the Wikipedia article about him. Akhenaton06 08:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
also lost my password and don't want to be sockpuppetting. 24.239.149.9 08:34, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, right. Akhenaton06 08:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I thing that Akhenanton should be blocked for flagrant deletion and reverts. Also Marion Barry has been viewed as a redeemed man. He was made nationwide famous for his arrest. Like if there was a page about Jack Ruby, it would have to include that he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. It's not negative, it's true. I did have information about other alpha's, but Akhenaton keeps deleting them. 24.239.149.9 09:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
this article is not about alpha men, just the fraternity. The category Alpha Phi Alpha brothers is where each fraternity brother shuold be listed in this category. I included the bit about the US post office because they were recognized as a group. Ccson
If this article is just about Alpha Phi Alpha then lets compromise by removing all mention of notable alpha phi alpha members as well as it's founders. 64.12.116.13 17:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The details of each persons contribution to society is listed on that persons article. No where, other than your text is this article about what someone is or were. I don't say U.S. Supreme court judge or Nobel Prize winner, etc. No one knows the good, bad, or ugly unless they read the persons page, and your comments would also be evident, such as the fact that Duke Ellington's page indicates he opted to attend a vocational school rather than college. Let's give the readers some credit for being able to discern the obvious. 67.34.213.68 00:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


let's not... and be a source of information ... 24.239.149.9 16:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Moving On

I am glad that you are determined to find a good, neutral version. I am watchwing your proposal. Bonaparte talk 19:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm open to discussion regarding updates to the site that of course must eventually be approved by the cabal mediator. My only concern is that information something that concerns the national fraternity as a majority, not acts that do not represent the fraternity, what it stands for or its goals. I realize that some heinous things have occured, but if only 1 - 10 chapters out 700+ chapters engaged in this activity, it not something representative of the image that should be portrayed. Also this is not a blog where one can type or say anything. This is an encyclopedia, albeit, online, and the content and tone should be neutral so that the message is received by the readers as valid and not left or right sided.
What the first topic that needs to be added so me can talk about it here first. Lets do this one a a time if that's okay with everyone. 67.34.213.68 19:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Reference to homosexual members

Bobbydoop is at it again. He has inserted the following into the article: "Alpha Phi Alpha is amongst the first to accept homosexual, but has struggled with these members" and the webpage cited as "proof" says nothing of the sort and the author of that piece is not mentioned. Once again, this guy has cited an unverifiable source. I am asking that this statement be removed from the page. Akhenaton06 02:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


alright here is another source, http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NlFrZsfOPIQJ:www.blackcollegewire.org/culture/041008_jlking-q-and-a/+%22alpha+phi+alpha%22+homosexual&hl=en , it's ok to have many homosexual members. Even Martin Luther King was a misogynist and user of prosititutes, but Alpha Phi Alpha praises and accepts him. This has even been confirmed by FBI survielence. [13] 205.188.116.65 03:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone with only an IP address has reverted the page against the current rule. the Cabal Mediator reverted the page earlier today and left a note that no changes were to made without a discussion and a consensus before he authorized the change. Ccson 04:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Bobbydoop, I read your last reference. This is only one persons experience, but it still does not reflect the views of the national fraterntiy. he states that many brothers were partying in an environment they felt comfortable in. My view from the article is that members may still be struggling for own personal reasons, but I don't see where the fraternity is at fault or where the interviewee indicates an inclusive or exclusive policy regarding homosexuals in this article. We need something more official and by multiple parties. People lead closets live in their professional, personal and civic lives, even though many companies have enacted open policies. Where has alpha phi alpha stated their inclusive or exclusive policy, (i.e. we know the armed forces are on record and this can be documented). the article must be factual, no how someone felt. Also, the first reference that in the article seems to be from an anonymous person, and therefore I must agree unverifiable. One cannot just search the web and say I found something and because it's here, it must be true.Ccson 04:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Im inclined to agree with Akenathon06 that the sentence referring to the organizations view on homesexuals be removed because,
1)neither article indicates that APhiA was among the first,
2) the first article has no author or name of the person speaking,
3)the second reference is one persons view at a boule while he was in Atlanta. I question if this person is an Alpha because Alpha has "Conventions", Omegas have "Boules", and that's not a mistake an Alpha would make. Alpha or whatever Frat he affilites with had nothing to do with his quest to be DL because he apparently led a closeted personal life since he was married which was a voluntary act. The fact that he has come out does not mean that other persons who choose remain DL for their own personal reasons, can fault any organization for this selfish act.
4)APhiA has over 700 chapters and initiated over 125,000 member, and neither fratnerity or authorized sub-group has issued a statement to agree with this personal assertion of 2 members.
The view is prevalent in many societies, however, these references are not a factual acount of the fraternity that should be included in an encyclopedia, again, just the experience of 2 of its members.
The sentence should be removed at this time and up for further review when it can substantially validated against reliable unbiased sources. Ccson 21:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


Is this better ???

[14]


[15]


there is a struggle and it should be duly noted. there is no auther listed b/c many individuals are stigmatized for being gay. Akhenton06 knows personally the stigma he feels. Many men become apes (alpha pledge term), because they'd like to feel the sting of receiving wood. They want the sweet warm embrace of a fellow man when they "grip". Like Race shouldn't matter, but it does. That's why A PHI A was created, b/c race matters. Homoseuxality shouldn't matter but it does. That's why A Phi A has a struggle with this. 24.239.149.9 04:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not better, in fact the second is the reference currently listed in the article that I and akenaton06 have already addressed previously as unverified.
The first reference from darmouth college appears to be something co-sponsored by the college chapter with other groups, there's no indication the chapter originated the idea for the workshop. NO matter who's idea, it shows the students were working providing a service to the community, not an internal struggle with the fraternity or with their own identity, or that any of the members were homosexual. The website is just a poster.
This article is about the National Fraternity and its policies, programs, and platform. The National Programs section of the article lists the projects that Alpha promotes nationwide and instructs the local alumni and college chapters to participate in as a statement of what Alpha is concerened about in society. Who someone has a right to marry is not on the Alpha platform and/or something the fraternity is dealing with. The fraternity is dealing with much more compelling issues that affect the nation and our world. There may be chapters near inner city schools that sponsor a talk on Drugs, black-on-black crime, etc, this does not mean that the National Fraternity supports or disagrees with these programs or is even aware that the program existed. Again, this would be 1 chapter out of 700+, and even if you could find 10 more, that doesn't make the topic something that the reader of this historical account of Alpha should walk away with as what Alpha stands for.
further, none of these 3 references indicate that Alpha was first in recognizing the issue if it has been recognized at all. The fact that it is addressed by any group would show its stance on Inclusivity, which I would think would be a positive thing.

The sentence should be removed at this time and up for further review when it can substantially validated against reliable unbiased sources, and a confirmation that the program, policy, comes directly from or supported by the National Office, other wise it's a local issue and has no place here. Ccson 06:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


First of all, there aren't 700 active chapters. There are like 300. Second regardless of whether or not it's national or chapter, it exists and is flagrant. Even if nationals officially states they are against hazing, it occurs at the chapter level. Apparantly they aren't in control of their own organization. Do you deny ever meeting a homosexual member of your frat? Guys on the downlow? You'd lie if you say you didn't. There is a struggle that men have faced. Some of them write it down and have posted it for public knowledge. Now you should simply accept the fact. 24.239.149.9 16:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

    • Reminder: personal knowledge is original research. Citing sources may help maintain a neutral and verifiable article. --Dystopos 17:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Bobbydoop, why are you obsessed with Alpha Phi Alpha? Why are you on a crusade to give the organization a bad name? Do I need to serve as a therapist right now? Akhenaton06 21:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the 100 year history of the fraternity, not simply as it exists in 2006, so one must consider all the contributions that were made by each chapter which has contributed to the rich history of Alpha, and that's where the information has come from. Much thanks to dystopos who is correct in that personal knowledge is original research. Citing sources may help maintain a neutral and verifiable article. , Your first two references are a personal account of their own view and, furthermore the first reference is not verifiable, the second, not by research, just his personal account after he came out, not because of Alpha, but as he says "my wife busted me".
The fact that people live and breathe each day indicates that Alpha has many members of different demographics, some are even handicapped and face other societal issues. These members in any organization or work envirnoment did not go back into the closet after pledging, they were never out of the closet and Alpha has little, and apparently no verifable source to say otherwise.
Further, you are now trying to frantically search the web for any meniton of Homesexual and Alpha Phi Alpha in the same page as proof your personal view is correct. I know that you know the difference, and so do you, and others that read this discussion.
This disussion is not about Hazing nor is it about whether homosexuals exists in the organization. The question is whether your statement Alpha Phi Alpha is amongst the first to accept homosexual, but has struggled with these members. There has been no evidence that shows the fraternity was the first or stuggles with these member. We will talk about the hazing sentence next.
The sentence should be removed at this time because no verifiable and neutral reference has been produced. 67.34.215.22 21:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Your homophobic attitude is truly ridiculous. There are members of the organization who are gay and have had troubles with the fraternity b/c of it. As it the links I provided. Please accept that gay men and women do exist and they have struggled as have african americans due to their orientation. So lets arise above this attitude and view this with an open mind. Read the links again and god bless you. 24.239.149.9 22:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

A noted alpha homosexual is

[16] [17] Countee Cullen 24.239.149.9 23:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Hows does the above statement make the statement in the article true? 67.34.215.22 00:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone this discussion has turned into a discussion on HOMOPHOBIA. The discussion is simply whether the one sentence in the current article is supported by valid, neutral evidence and I suggest in my texts above that the evidence does not support that Alpha was first of fraternities to accept, and that the fraterntiy struggles with these members. The sentence that the contributor has been attempting to add to the first paragraph is vandalism. The impetus of why the frat was created was told by the founders, and they did not list sexual bias on the campus of Cornell. It's possible that this was occuring on every campus as well a bias toward handicap students before all of this became politically incorrect, but it was not one of the reasons why this frat was established.

The sentence should be removed at this time because no verifiable and neutral reference has been produced. Ccson 13:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

links have been provided. Alpha Phi Alpha publically had homosexual members. Unlike many other greeks, thus it is one of the first to accept homosexual members. Sexual bias and sexual orientation is another. Homosexual membership has been established as well as the issue that A phi A has with dealing with them. Thank you. 24.239.149.9 18:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


Vietnam and South Korea

Is there any proof behind the existence of chapters in Viet nam and South Korea? IF not i move for a motion to delete. ChinaTownrules 17:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the author of this information, however; I will attempt to see If I can get some information to verify if these chapters exist today, or ever existed. It's possible that during the war in these countries that a chapter was established, but again, I don't know for certain. Check back for an update. Ccson. 67.34.215.22 22:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I move to delete this information if it is no longer current, and decrease the number of chapters to 698. thank you 24.239.149.9 22:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, this article chrnocicles the history, and the sentence in questions says "Chapters have been chartered", not that must currently exist. Would you move to delete any reference to the fact that slavery existed in the United States, or in the south, because it no longer exist. It's a part of the history of country, just as part of any chapter history would be, even if defunct today. Let's wait until I have the information. 67.34.215.22 00:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

At what schools do these chapters exist???? If they don't exist anymore i move to delete. 24.239.149.9 00:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Did you not understand my first response that to ChinaTownRules that I am not aware of these chapters and therefore unable to provide answers this time, and my direct response to you, not more than 2 hours ago, that i can't provide any specific answers at this time.? thank you again for your opinion. Ccson 67.34.215.22 02:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

You have reverted the pages and add4ed more text about countee cullen when you know this violates the discussion rules of this article. Ccson. 67.34.215.22 02:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

there is substantial evidence that slavery existed. there is no proof that a chapter continues to exist in korea or Communist Vietnam. not even one link. there isn't even a black population in vietnam. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vm.html#People Removal!!! 24.239.149.9 18:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The official fraternity website indicates which chapters were established on certain continents, and Asia is listed. The site list Europe, but we know a chapter was established in Frankfurt. as we can assume the fraternity knows where chapters were established, since the charters would have been granted by the national office. We can compromise by changing Vietnam and South Korea to Asia, Again, this article is about the history of the group, not an day-to-day account of what is currently occuring--that's what newspapers are for, encyclopedias are for recording history that has occured in day-to-day life. Can we get contributors to indicated if Asia is acceptable until someone can provide positive proof of a chapter in these countries. The fact that this is not on the internet is not proof of its non-existance, since someone would have to have added this. you can visit the fraternity website at www.alphaphialpha.net to verify. Ccson 67.34.212.205 05:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)\


no assumptions.. no new knowledge.... 152.163.100.130 04:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


going by that train of thought .. we should be sure and keep the issue of homosexuals in the organization b/c it is part of it's history as well as the paper bag test. 152.163.100.130 04:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There still has been no credible reliable, or neutral POV of the orgnaization's issue on homosexuals that need to recorded in an encyclopedia. The Boy Scouts, the Catholic Church, and the repbulican party have issued public statements on their view of this subject. Alpha Phi Alpha has not commented or made a similar statement and so it's misleading to the reader to say what the organization' policy is when they have not addressed the issue in support or against an issue. You provide one website about the paper bag test, and if true, was used by one chapter in D.C., hardly proof positive that this was the policy of the fraternity in whole. One cannot say the republican party support abortions if you could find one chapter or state that endorsed this POV or one catholic church that accepted homesexuals. The view from the national party/church is well documented, and does not have to endlessly search the web as you do for 2 examples to prove their point. Your examples are individual opinions and 1 referece provided no information on the author or who the person was. Ccson 23:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Hazing

The cabal mediator determined during the original discussion that this text and reference was reliable and was supposed to have been deleted before. Here is bonapartes text printed again: I read one more time all and still think that you should let the compromise offered by Ccson. The links that were given as sources are not that reliable, and the text is almost copy paste. Bonaparte talk 17:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC). I move the mediator reaffirm his decision now that the text be deleted. Ccson 67.34.215.22 16:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

actually if you go to the pleding section. Bonaparte says that it may be kept.. He was referring to the Intercollegiate controversy.

This may be added. You may add that remark. Bonaparte talk 19:46, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

If the site is unreliable, how can any of the text be valid when information is reportedly second handed?

To confirm witht he mediator, this text is already in the current version, so I guess you're saying that it should not be deleted and remain. Is this correct? 67.34.215.22 00:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Please get an education CCson, and/or apply it. So Thank you very much. 24.239.149.9 18:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)





one week edit pause

You see that you are reaching very fast the compromise. One week edit pause. Any other future edit will be here posted and I will watch it first. See you in one week.Bonaparte talk 07:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

)


Mediation

Does this article still need mediators from the Mediation Cabal? Olorin28 03:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


yes152.163.100.130 04:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Can the involved parties make a short list of summaries of 1. What is the argument. 2. What is the proposed remedy? Olorin28 04:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There's no real issue here. You have one user who has used multiple sockpuppets and is obsessed with including misleading information and attacks about hazing and homosexuals in the article. There are other users who have experience with the subject but cannot understand or deal with this user's persistance. He has also been blocked several times and there are similar problems at remove St. John's University, New York, Bronx High School of Science, Stuyvesant High School, Townsend Harris High School. I think all of these pages should be semi-protected. Tfine80 04:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


look at tfine80 's history. he has a history of reverting. he offers no proof and is the one who has been troublesome. 69.86.130.215 08:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Please stop making accusations, and instead sit down and try to work this out. Can you provide an outline of the conflict, and your proposed solutions? (Both of you) Olorin28 00:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea if all contributors will sign in so we can see who's doing what. User bobbydoop (69.96.130.215) has stated months ago that he forgot his ID and therefore can no longer sign in. Is it possible that Wikipedia can email his password, reset the password, or allow him to create a new ID so that his work can be signed even when at different computers?

I agree with Tfine80, these issues were resolved in the previous dispute by Bonaparte, however; Bobbydoop continues to revert the article to his own liking, even to pages 2 months ago, which is summarily reverting all the new input provided by other contributors. Ccson 03:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

There's no dispute here. This user's contributions are too aggressive, random, and bizarre to process any sort of discussion. His main focus seems to be attacking schools that he doesn't attend. Fortunately, he has eased off lately. Tfine80 14:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

We now have a new user, Mikeandike, who has joined the revert war to pages 2 months old and accusing me of vandalism for putting page back the way it was, and not letting a 2 month old version control. 67.34.214.218 18:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


i've seen bobbydoop's history.. he has never made that statement. Tfine80 you are a violator of the 3r rule and should summarily cease and decist from this activity. 64.131.207.37 06:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Shout out

Whoever is updating this site is doing a great job. There are going to be people out there who hate, but of course everyone cant be an Alpha. Herb-

Lead paragraph and tone

This article is presented a bit breathlessly, and is currently lacking in encyclopedic tone. For example, from the lead paragraph:

In 2006, the fraternity entered a Centennial Era – A Period of preparation and mobilization as it celebrates a century of service. Thurgood Marshall, Whitney Young, Jesse Owens and Paul Robeson are among the countless Alpha men who have dedicated their lives to the fraternity’s motto--manly deeds, scholarship, and love for all mankind.

This would be better stated as something like:

Alpha Phi Alpha has declared 2006 the begining of the "Centennial Era" to celebrate its 100th anniversary.[cite1] Among its alumni are Thurgood Marshall[cite2], Whitney Young[cite3], Jesse Owens[cite4] and Paul Robeson.[cite5]

The first states opinon as fact, e.g. It says that the Centennial Era is a period of preparation and mobilization. It also uses some serious hyperbole, e.g. Are the alumni literally countless? There are quite a few instances in the article of similar stylistic mistakes.
brenneman{L} 23:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding other Black fraternity histories excluding Alpha Phi Alpha

Being a member of Kappa Alpha Psi, I read about the other Black fraternities omiting Alpha Phi Alpha from their own history books. I must also note when I was spending time in the high school library where I used to teach at, I saw the History of Alpha Phi Alpha on the book shelf in the history section. I curiously read through this book and found out this book is written the same way as my own fraternity history book as well as Omega Psi Phi's and Phi Beta Sigma's history books. It mainly telling the history of Alpha Phi Alpha and only mentioning the other NHPC fraternities and sororites dealing with National Pan-Hellenic Council history only.

So I feel it is unfair to say that this fraternity is saying another fraternity is omiting them out. These books were written by their own fraternity brothers focusing mainly on their organization history and did not add or have to mention other black fraternities to explain if there any rivalries, differences between each organization or focusing who was founded first. So the person who written about the omission cannot be hypocritical until he can explain why Alpha Phi Alpha excluded the other fraternities and sororities from their history? Erayman64

I think you're saying the information is true, and an encyclopedia must record the truth, not individual biased point of views, even if they total three. The author is quoted, menaing "in his opinion", the article is linked for anyone to read, so I think readers can gather their own opinion as you have to his fairness, but the accuracy of the statement is true. The text in Alpha Phi Alpha relates to its history when founded. The other three fraternity's were not in existence, so there would be no need for Alpha to mention them in the context of what the environment was in 1906. Kappa nebulously refers to "another fraternity", and Omega goes all the back to 1776 with Phi Beta Kappa, but not a word about an organization on its own campus as a model or even the impetus for creating an alternative black greek organization. Ccson

Oldest and The Coldest

This really has been discussed to death.

Alpha Phi Alpha IS the first INTER-COLLEGIATE FRATERNITY for African American males!!! The public is very aware (now) of Simga Pi Phi (not a college fraternity), Alpha Kappa Nu SOCIETY (in 1903, and again, NOT a fraternity) as well as Gamma Phi (founded in 1905 at Wilberforce and NOT/NEVER INTER-collegiate.)

Now, feel better?

Correction

Alpha Kappa Nu was a local fraternity founded by African-American male students that did not last very long on the campus of Indiana University and is no longer in existence regardless of the name of society or fraternity. Alpha Phi Alpha still deserves the honor as the oldest existing African-American service fraternity. Simga Pi Phi is a professional service organization, not a college fraternity. Erayman64 Erayman64

LOL at "regardless of the name society or fraternity!" "Black greek 101" by Walter Kimbrough, says it was a "Greek Society" (pg22-23) a precursor to fraternities in a sense...the same way Alpha Phi Alpha was a social study club and APA Literary Society before the vote to become an authentic and legitimate fraternity on December 4, 1906. And the point is that APA was the first inter-collegiate frat for African Americans, which can't be disputed. Also, Alpha Phi Alpha IS NOT a SERVICE fraternity, it's a social fraternity rooted in principles of education and it's main purpose is to benefit its members and the organization itself , and part of that is, naturally, to take care of the environment (community) around you. However, the discussion of what the Divine Nine organizations were, is, and should be are as old as the organizations themselves. I've heard members of Delta Sigma Theta and Phi Beta Sigma argue the point that their respective organizations were founded and established primarily for community service, not social clubs, "study groups", or even fraternities in the traditional sense. Still, high standards for academic excellence as well as a sense of unity (brotherhood/sisterhood) were/are expected of the members. adisalee

Alpha Phi Alpha Crest

You describe the Alpha Phi Alpha crest's symbol as:

Sphinx, Pharaoh and Ape....

Where did you get "Ape" from??

--Spartan-1 10:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I think you're referring to the text in the fraternity infobox. The symbol field is not describing what's depicted in the crest, just as the fraternity flower is not depicted in the crest. These items are requested when this template is used, however; each field stands alone. In fact, the template does not require that a crest be displayed, although most fraternity and sorority articles will show a crest or shield for the organization. You may have noticed the fraternity shield later in the article where I describe what's depicted, but I wasn't attempting to do this for the crest. Alpha Kappa Alpha has Ivy listed as a symbol, but I don't see an Ivy in the crest. Kappa Alpha Psi list "Diamond", but there is no Diamond. There are other things (scales, Atlas holding the world, handshake, arm with spear, etc), this doesn't make them symbols because there are depicted, just as if something is not depicted does not mean it's not a symbol. Please look at the Outside links section of the Alpha article, click on Alpha Phi Alpha Iconography, and you're see a section for Apes. You can also search other chapter sites and will see Apes in some form since it is a symbol of the fraternity. Thanks for the question and I hope this helps. Ccson 05:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC) Alpha Phi Alpha

"Blacks"

Hi all - I have a strong objection to the wording of "...founded by blacks." It sounds soooo crude, not just in the racial sense, but as if it is talking about paints or crayons. You must realize that this article will be viewed on July 25 by a worldwide audience who are not aware of American life or mannerisms. This Fire Burns Always 13:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

So you must emphasize the "people" by referring to them as African Americans or at the very least, black students. This Fire Burns Always 13:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


i think negro is probably a better term 64.12.116.133 18:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Symbols

I did a little digging and apparently "ape" is a legitimate symbol of the fraternity, but at first glance, it looked to me like racist vandalism. Seems like an explanation of the symbol in the article would be helpful. Katr67 19:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

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