Talk:Almeda University

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Contents

[edit] NPOV tag

I've done some cleanup on this article. While the accreditation issue must be handled, the tone of the article and the balance of discussion has to be evened out. I don't know much about the university, and don't know where to start, but while an honest article is in order, it can't be a smear job, either. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this a school? Does that claim meet WP:V? As for now it doesn't look like it. Arbusto 08:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Veronica678 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)The part about the dog should be removed. If a person filled out an application using a fake (dog's) name, the content of the application must have been also falsified with enough detail to pass the equivalency meter. The problem is that if someone did complete the application with enough fake personal details to be awarded the Almeda degree, with the sole intent of discrediting Almeda, then it violates several laws including fraud and entrapment. All Almeda applications require that the applicant sign electronically that they are at least 18 years of age and all information contained within their application is true and correct. Also, the dog story was not created by a news team investigation, but was an uncorroborated story told to the news – which they then chose to print without verifying the details. This is akin to sending a friend with your birth certificate in to take your drivers license test for you and then bashing the Department of Motor Vehicles for issuing you a driver’s license when you can't drive.

Do not remove cited material.[1][2]
Do you have any links that any accredited schools have awarded a dog a degree? You analogy doesn't work and it WP:OR. Arbusto 18:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

If you are going to quote the article without requiring any validity or corroboration, at least quote it accurately. Your out-of-context quote is misleading. It isn't Wally that teaches kids responsibilities, it's Wally's owner. See my correction. —the preceding comment is by Veronica678 - 21:43, 30 September 2006: Please sign your posts!

From the article, I think it's pretty clear that it's Wally's life experience that is being described. I'm changing your phrasing to make that more clear. William Pietri 16:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

Would someone other than a single purpose account please quantify the supposed neutrality dispute? I see none here; the article is well supported by citations from reliable sources. Guy 16:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Since I, and not anyone else, added the tag: Balance of coverage, lack of information about the actual school, etc. This is stuck only on these issues about its accreditation and ome of the news stories that have come out about it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The question is, can anyone find a reliable source that doesn't classify it a diploma mill? If not, we can't fudge the article just to be "balanced". That would be WP:OR. And if somebody does find such a source, just incorporate the information. A.J.A. 16:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, I see where you're coming from, but {{sofixit}}. You're a good editor - if you can find reliable sources adding the other POV to the article, then go ahead and do it. If you can't, then how are the rest of us supposed to do it? TheronJ 17:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Mainly because I've been working hard on another article and wanted to let this silly dog diploma edit war calm down a bit first. Meanwhile, as an example, it's as if no one's bothered to check out their homepage, which is useful in limited quantities to get a good idea of what they do. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a matter of taking an article out of context. The context as written on Wikipedia alludes to the assumption that Almeda knowingly issued a diploma to a dog. The facts in the news article state that the dog's owner completed the application with made-up information and used his dog's name, Wally. The way I had it in my version were accurate according to the article. The "editors" of Wikipedia keep saying that I am not allowed to change it as it is a single use account. But does anyone really care about accuracy here?Veronica678 16:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it makes the point that Almeda make no attempt whatsoever to apply any standards of quality or verification to their degree applicants. If you can get a diploma for your dog, answering the questions truthfully as this guy did, then that shows something fundamentally awry in the institution's quality control. Or that it has none, and is a diploma mill, which seems to be what the majority of external commentators believe. Guy 16:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? The guy that got the diploma for his dog clearly perjured himself to discredit Almeda. And since he was willing to commit perjury on his Almeda application, what makes you think he was 100 percent honest in the news article? Veronica678 21:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, he didn't commit perjury; he just lied on the form to Almeda. That's a pretty common technique of investigative reporters. If you search a little, you'll see that he works (or at least worked) for the TV station, so my guess is that he did it at the request of the station reporters. That's why I think he didn't lie further. And both their story and our article are honest about the fact that he lied, so our readers can judge the situation as they see fit. Perhaps some will agree with you; others, like the station reporters, will feel that a little creativity in filling out a form is not quite enough to merit an Associate's degree. William Pietri 05:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

First, in every state of the USA, KNOWINGLY providing false information on a college application is perjury. Secondly, the Almeda online application will not allow you to submit it without at least a "significant" amount of data. Thus, there must have been a lot more falsified details than the news writer let on -- perhaps enough to qualify him for the associate degree. Lastly, the simple fact that he was doing an investigation does not make him above the law. Is it okay for a news writer to attempt to carry a gun onto an airplane for the sake of an investigation? Certainly not without the direction of the FBI.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Veronica678 (talk • contribs).

I don't know if it would be legal or not, but press coverage about it would certainly be relevant to a story about the airline in question. TheronJ 17:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Whether or not what he did was a crime doesn't seem obviously relevant to the article. But even if it were, it doesn't matter here until a reliable source says he committed a crime. William Pietri 02:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible additional sources for Almeda College and/or University

Spurred by Jeff's challenge to offer balance, I took a look for more reliable source references to Almeda.

  • A story in CityLink about Almeda as basically their textbook example of a degree mill - no campus, no courses, no tests, and you get a degree. The story also discusses Almeda's being driven out of Florida by the local regulators.[3].
  • A Naples police officer is forced to pay back his raise received after he received a promotion based on his Almeda degree.[4]
  • Two Naples police officers are fired for claiming degrees from Almeda; bring grievance.[5]
  • Stephen Twenge identifies Almeda as a "degree mill" that exists "only on the web." [6] (Note: This source might not meet WP:RS, as I am not sure of its publication info).

Jeff, I don't see how we're going to be able to introduce the POV you want. Everything I see from any reliable source indicates that Almeda (1) has no campus, (2) teaches no classes, (3) administers no tests, and (4) offers degrees for about $600 based entirely on "life experience." Are you going to insist on the POV tag until someone finds a newspaper article somewhere saying that Almeda is a great school whose degrees are widely accepted by people familiar with the school? If not, what POV are we missing? Thanks, TheronJ 18:15, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, there's certainly more that can be said about this place that isn't "diploma mill." If I can get around to it later on, I'll certainly do it, but I don't think I'm taking some extreme position here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, if you can expand it go for it, but make sure that is passes WP:V. Some diploma mill websites steal data and names from legit schools and post it as their own history. Arbusto 21:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll wait a couple of days more, but the tag needs to be removed soon. Arbusto 05:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd second that. The more I dig into Almeda, the more the article seems reasonable to me. I'd be glad to find some positive information, but I haven't turned up anything so far. Jeff, if you have references, I'm glad to do the donkey work myself. William Pietri 05:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll give it a shot tonight, for real. I got sidetracked the other night and forgot about it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Jeff. That tag has been up for more than a week, and I think you're the only person currently favoring it. Would you mind if I removed it until you find the sources you're hoping for? Thanks, William Pietri 04:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, please read the article, if you think it's written in NPOV, just switch the tag to {{unbalanced}}. The page says nothing positive about the institute, even the view of the institute itself in reply to any of the criticisms isn't posted. While it might be easier to provide criticism for an institute such as this, for a better coverage a balanced article is a lot better. It would let an informed person who reads the article to make their judgements by themself instead of reading it and believing that only one side is allowed to voice their opinion (which would lead them to ignoring the article). - Bobet 09:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Our article on Charles Manson doesn't say how kind he was to his mother, either. The reason the article says nothing positive about the place is that, in essence, there is nothing positive which does not emanate from the place itself. It's a diploma mill. There's not much more to be said. Guy 10:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I disagree with the analogy about Charles Manson, since the article about him does provide some balance, talking about his personal philosophy and motives for his actions. In this case the article has nothing but criticisms, which is bad, because it gives the appearance of an unbalanced article. Having some kind of retort, even from the institute itself would be better, and would let everyone judge things for themselves. You don't need to lead people by hand to the conclusions by providing one-sided coverage, especially in cases when the conclusion is this obvious (I don't disagree with you about the place itself). - Bobet 12:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I just haven't had the time for the type of research this ultimately deserves. If a POV article is okay with people, I accept being in the minority, but we're just shortchanging ourselves. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you sketch out what you imagine would ideally get added to the article? I'm just having trouble imagining what you'd like to add. Thanks, William Pietri 15:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that what Jeff is getting at is that we might, as an exercise in "writing for the enemy," create a new first body paragraph that stated Almeda's side of the story, cited to their website -- that Almeda offers degrees based on "life experience" as well as on-line courses in a number of primarily technical areas, and, well, I'm not sure what else would meet WP:RS guidelines for self-published materials in articles about the publisher. IMHO, if someone wants to work on this, I think replacing the redirect at Life Experience Degrees with some cited material would be a better project. TheronJ 17:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't sound unreasonable, but I confess that I'm skeptical that the Almeda College website expresses their view about Almeda College. It's the same question about the people running a pigeon drop: they express a point of view, but are we obliged to believe they hold that view? I don't have an answer; it's just a question I'm struggling with. William Pietri 04:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the Life Experience Degrees redirect, I'm for putting content there if it is real WP:RS. However, I doubt we can find anything of educational WP:V to claim anything that isn't covered on the diploma mill page (where the redirect goes now). Arbusto 00:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from Ernest k

moved from the top of the page

What I see is a smear job. I believe that most of the things being said are trying to imply that if a school is not accredited by one of the 7 regional accrediting agencies that it is some how illegal. Not true! And the preconceived bias is that if you acquire the same knowledge outside of a classroom blessed by one of these agencies (that are private business not government agencies), that this knowledge is of poor quality. —the preceding comment is by Ernest k - 00:59, 13 October 2006: Please sign your posts!

I think a dog getting award a degree shows more serious issues than mere accreditation. Clearly, the person recieving the money does not even care enough to validate a name. Arbusto 05:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only Partly correct

"What I see is a smear job. I believe that most of the things being said are trying to imply that if a school is not accredited by one of the 7 regional accrediting agencies that it is some how illegal. Not true! And the preconceived bias is that if you acquire the same knowledge outside of a classroom blessed by one of these agencies (that are private business not government agencies), that this knowledge is of poor quality. —the preceding comment is by Ernest k - 00:59, 13 October 2006: Please sign your posts"

There are 6 regional agenicies and you are correct, though only partly correct. Schools can be nationally accredited as well, but Almeda has neither regional or national accreditation, they basically created the agency who accredits them and plenty of other mills.

References:


http://www.chea.org/public_info/index.asp#what


http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/index.html

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/Search.asp

—the preceding comment is by Aic712 - 14:07, 18 October 2006 UTC: Please sign your posts!

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/l/m/Talk%7EAlmeda_University_78d9.html"