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Hello,

It appears that Amadeo Modiliaghni also had something to do, since a painting of his on display at the Museo Thyssen in Madrid may be of Kiki.

Contents 1 Change Title of Page 1.1 two articles might be better for alter egos 1.2 not an alter ego; the name she was known by 1.3 Kiki is how she identified herself 1.4 She was known as Kiki de Montparnasse 1.5 consensus is the typical path at Wikipedia 1.6 538,000 results from Google for Alice Prin

[edit] Change Title of Page

Would anyone have any objection to changingg the title of this page from "Alice Prin" to "Kiki de Montparnasse"? She was and is much better know as the latter. However, I am opening to hearing the downside of changing the title. Thanks.

WatchCat87 10:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] two articles might be better for alter egos

Two articles might be better. A new one could stress the character Alice Prin invented, Kiki de Montparnasse, since she was most often known as, Kiki, which was the signature she used and is unlikely to be a good choice for a separate article. There were other names used, the queen of Montparnasse, Reine de la Montparnasse, Kiki of Montparnasse, and more. So one would have to determine which would be the best choice.

This article, retaining the original title, could discuss her real identity and interesting personal history in more detail. Best to consult with 136.182.158.129, another alter ego who often has strong and rather unyielding opinions about these topics. I think you would have lots of help in building the pages, I know that I would.

Without the creation of two articles, I would expect that there are so many references to Alice Prin that it should remain as the title for this article, for the best use of the encyclopedia.

83d40m 22:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] not an alter ego; the name she was known by

But what is her personal history as "Alice Prin"? Everyone knew her as "Kiki de Montparnasse", except the family she knew before she left for Paris as a young teenager. This was, for all intents and purposes, her name. If this wiki article implies otherwise, then the article is wrong. Everyone in the life she made for herself in Paris knew her as "Kiki de Montparnasse"; no one called her "Alice". References about her (in English) call her "Kiki de Montparnasse". See Kluver and Martin, for example. Her birth name is given only cursory mention.

The article on the personal history of Alice Prin would be very short: Born in poverty in rural France. Went to Paris and became Kiki de Montparnasse. WatchCat87 21:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kiki is how she identified herself

It seems that her contemporaries knew her as, Kiki, which was her own signature on her paintings -- where she used only one name. She named her establishment Chez Kiki -- not, Chez Kiki de Montparnasse. Her memoirs are, Kiki’s Memoirs, not the Memoirs of Kiki de Montparnase. She is one of those people who gained noteriety with a single name, a nickname. She also was alluded to by several playful names and titles that reflected her "persona" in the bohemian milieu of Montparnasse, which is not so unusual among such groups.

I am not denying the accuracy of what you say, only pointing out that among all of the names which refer to Kiki, it would be difficult to choose one used more than, Kiki, alone. Kiki alone would make much more sense to me, but is inappropriate here because it is not definitive enough as a title for our article.

All information I have seen about her indicates her birth name clearly, which I am sure her children carry also -- so that has to be taken into consideration.

References to people with dramatic personae such as hers will always reflect the very unusual and playful names used, it is the nature of documenting the novelty of it.

So I think the title is best left as it is in our encyclopedia, with redirects used for all of the others. 83d40m 03:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] She was known as Kiki de Montparnasse

The simple fact is, this person was and is known as Kiki de Monparnasse. This is how she was referred to in her time and now. It is not difficult to choose; it is very straight forward -- everyone who has written about her at any length has made this choice. It was not a "character she created"; it was the name she went by.

When I move the page, I intend to indicate her birthname clearly.

I do not find your arguments against the move persuasive, or even informed.

By the way, she had no children. You would know that if you had done any reading about her. WatchCat87 00:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] consensus is the typical path at Wikipedia

I think you should develop some consensus about such an action rather than making a unilateral decision to rename a long-standing article based on your preference alone. This article has existed since 2002 under this title, that is four years. Your first edit is dated 23 November 2006 -- only a few weeks ago.

After all, you raised the question as to whether there would be any objection and now -- having found that there is -- you state that regardless to the objection, you are going to proceed. Hummmm…

I suggest that, since only you want a separate article using this nickname, make a new article from scratch using the title you insist upon, rather than dragging the work of many other editors along with your unilateral action. Sounds as if you have lots of material to include in it.

83d40m 03:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 538,000 results from Google for Alice Prin

That there are 538,000 results presented by Google for Alice Prin, indicates a broad knowledge of that name. This is quite contrary to what watchcat asserts. Seems everybody knows who she was.

On the other hand, the results for the other names bring forth lingerie shops, bakeries, clothing lines, and many other uses besides those for Alice Prin. - fv —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.247.254.117 (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

OPPOSE

1) You should have put a rename tag on the article

2) I presume redirects are in place at the other names

3) K of M is long and many people will not spell M correctly

Johnbod 21:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)