Talk:Algirdas

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Comments	expanion of article needed M.K. 16:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Disruption

Dear Orionus, if you continue your wide-scale campaign at lithuanizing Russian history, you may be blocked for disruption, as User:AndriyK once was. As a sidenote, when adapting the EB1911 article about the guy for this project, I chose to place it at Algirdas, rather than Olgierd, which was its legitimate Britannica name. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Girlandajo, I am lituanizing only Lithuanian names. Algirdas is one of them. Could you provide your arguments, why I am not rigth, stating, that Olgierd is polonised version of name Algirdas. Orionus 11:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Polish spellings shouldn't be mentioned when talking about this guy at all. The article about him says: "A neat division of their dominions is illustrated by the fact, that Algirdas appears allmost only in East Slavic sources, whereas the Western chronicles are aware of Kęstutis only". Indeed, 14th-century Polish sources were hardly aware that Algirdas existed. They learned about him from Russian/Ruthenian chronicles, where he is named as Olgerd/Olgierd. If you look closely, you will see that his whole family was Russian/Ruthenian. He was as much Lithuanian as Russian/Ruthenian. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, family of Algirdas was Russian? I thougt Gediminas, his father was Lithuanian... If you have nothing against, lets move this discussion to Algirdas discussion page. Orionus 11:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I notice this new discussion so I want to make some contribs here too :). Dear Ghirlandajo, do you know how Constantinople patriarch called this ruler (at least in docs)?M.K. 11:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In the article Bryansk Ghirlandajo wrote "rv disruptive edits: his Slavic name is Olgierd, the guy ruled Slavic subjects, was Orthodox and called himself Olgierd". If this is true, then I apologise Ghirlandajo for my ignorance and disruptive edits. Orionus 13:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all there is not valid proof that he was Orthodox (actually he personally ordered to hang several Orthodox). He was a Grand Duke of all Lithuania, Kestutis ruled only western parts of state but then (Kestutis), did not have title Grand Duke (despite their agreement to be equal) . Algirdas formulated motto of Grand Duchy of Lithuania - All Rus belongs to Lithuania/ns - which was followed by Jogaila, Vytautas and other rulers. Called himself Olgierd - the most interesting part ! M.K. 13:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)P.s. actually contemporary accounts by Herman Vartberg suggests that Algirdas was "buried" by the Pagan ritual

Ghirlandajo might want to share source of his knowledge about Algirdas being Orthodox and Slavic, because German and Polish sources say that after death he was burned in ceremonial fire. This does not look like very orthodox way of burial, does it? In the text there are stated authors of western chronicles, you might find them in library. Ergo - the statement in article about westerners not knowing about Algirdas is wrong.

And WP:Cite, dear Girlandajo, before making such statements as above. And of course, it would be nice if you'd cite not Karamzin, because it is proven, that Karamzins's fantasies were written only to prove imperial "Russo-Lithuanian" state theory and are based on no reliable sources.--Lokyz 13:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

Algirdas could not have been the last pagan ruler of Europe since his brother Kestutis ruled the GDL in 1381-82, and was certainly a pagan as well. "Widely regarded as the greatest monarch of Lithuania" is weaselly and could easily be disputed by Gediminas, Vytautas, etc.

(Leo1410 12:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC))

Why you, lithuanians always write: "Gediminas", or "Algirdas". Olgierd didn,t know his name is "Algirdas". He wasn't never heard a name like that. He thought his name was Olgierd. Giedymin and Olgierd didn't spoke Lithuanian language like you do. They weren't Lithuanians, they were Litvins or Ruthenians or Old Belarusians if you like. They spoke Ruthenian language. So why all these Lithuanian names??? This lithuanization is not nice.--Bloomfield 17:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Algirdas even signed Algerdos in Greek in his letters written to the Emperor of Constantinople, by the way. They were Lithuanian not always by genetics but definitely by nationality. The spoke a little different Lithuanian like Lithuanians today, so their true names sounded more or less like they are written in Lithuanian. That are the historical facts. However, they most probably knew Ruthenian. But all Lithuanian gentry in Early Middle Ages were of Lithuanian or Samogitian origin, not Old Belarusian. Iulius 17:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

This is just not true. Look at that: http://starbel.narod.ru/maliu/tytstat.jpg

The official language of The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was Ruthenian language. So why not Lithuanian if the rulers were Lithuanians???--Bloomfield 23:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, goodnes, we have been before. There was no official language in GDL. Certainly not in modern definition. Lithuanian language had several problems: it was not written and nobody else spoke it. So in correspondence to the west Latin was used, to the east - Ruthenian. Same thing as in today's Lithuania: letter to George W. Bush would be written in English and not Lithuanian. That dukes were Lithuanian shows where they came from: Samogitia, Aukstaitija, other Lithuanian-inhabited lands. They just expanded over Slav lands. Like Daumantas of Pskov, who had a "career" "abroad". Renata 02:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)