User talk:Alecmconroy

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[edit] Stormfront.

I think hiding the references in comments is deeply silly, as you may as well not have them for all the use they are to the casual reader. I can appreciate, however, that we do not want to artificially inflate a hate site's rankings on Google. Surely, though, it is very easy to simply reference urls without linking them? i.e. en.wikipedia.org? Would this not work? Dev920 21:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for looking it over. I don't know if Google would pick up on non-linked URLs or not. My concern is that if we treat Stormfront differently than we treat any other websites, isn't Wikipedia essentially passing judgement on whether a referenced is "Good" or "Bad"? I mean, I'm comfortable with me, a human being, saying that white supremacists are bad, but I tend to think Wikipedia should have as a "neutral" a point-of-view as possible on political issues. Should we have a different set of rules for hate sites than we have for other sites? What do you think? It's a complicated issue-- no one wants to help the Nazis, but I don't want to discriminate against them either --Alecmconroy 21:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree with you, though I think the references condemn them ipso facto! There is a policy discussion going on at the village pump about this, I know, but what might be more useful is if you could find any previous examples of what people have done when faced with refrencing hate sites. I've been checking neo-nazi articles but haven't found anything as yet - you might have a bit more luck. Dev920 22:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as i know the surest way not to inflate their page rank is to link the google-cached version.-- ExpImp^{talk con} 22:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Alec, that's some interesting stuff you found about that reporter. Nice work :). Yes I think it should stay in but some people are determined to keep it out. Strange, seeing as how that was the main barrier they had and was what they were insisting on. You'd think that finding a story, which is actually reproduced on their site, would be good enough to satisfy them. I'm going to just keep putting it back in. Thanks again, Stick to the Facts 12:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ummm why did you edit it out? I just noticed that now. Stick to the Facts 12:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SafeLibraries?

Hi Alec, I'm trying to figure out what my next step should be regarding the American Library Association pages. SafeLibraries has been treading into some areas that I'm not entirely comfortable with on the Talk pages as far as bringing my personal/professional life into my trying to keep the ALA article reasonable. I'll happilly step away from it if that's whats indicated, I just feel that his continual attempts to inject more controversy into this page are bordering on bad behavior. Care to offer some advice either here or via email? Thanks. Jessamyn (talk) 14:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re:RfC on Muhammad as a diplomat

hey Alec, i just wanted to give my thanks to you for taking a good amount of time to comment on the article in question, it was a very thoughtful contribution. i know what you mean when you talk about few responses to RfC's, it can sometimes be very disappointing, so even more thanks for taking the time to help out. regards, ITAQALLAH 16:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stormfront again

Sure, put it back in if you like but please don't touch the Don Black illegal activity part in the first section. Stick to the Facts 16:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We were specifically told by ElC not to include more than one link to SF. If you want the reference you can make it hidden. Don't get on my case for deleting stuff and then do the same in return. Stick to the Facts 12:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Science

I nominated The Quran and science for deletion, do you mind weighing in? Arrow740 00:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is an hourly struggle over this article, and it only gets worse. Oh well. At least in a few weeks people will be willing to delete it. Arrow740 08:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BSA controversy

I thought you made excellent points in the ongoing controversy re Heqwm and the BSA article. You may be interested in the mediation case he filed: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-10-08 BSA. Rlevse 14:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Alecmconroy and Jagz--First, congrats again on the fine job you did getting Boy Scouts of America membership controversies to FA status. I noticed it's had lots of edits lately and looked it over. I'm concerned about it possibly in the future losing it's FA status as things like a section with a bulleted list, poor punctuation and formatting, and loosely joined facts have crept in. I can help with formatting, refs, and such if you like, but as I am not an expert on these controversies, I would likely be of only limited help on the prose part. Let me know if you'd like me to help. If you care to repsond, leave a msg here on your page. Rlevse 02:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• Before you post an RFC read my last comments. I am really only objecting to one word. --evrik ^(talk) 22:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• I was assuming good faith, and was even going to say something nice about your last comment on my talk page until I saw your veiled threat about the 3rr. --evrik ^(talk) 23:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• If I sound irritated about this it’s because I didn't even think about accusing either of you of 3RR because I thought we were working through the issue, in good faith. I find it especially galling because I was willing to compromise with the removal of one word, and the way I count it, over the last 24 hours Jagz crossed the four edit line first, and had there not been two of you tag teaming me I would not have made as many edits. --evrik ^(talk) 23:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• I never thought of this as an edit war. I'm done for the day, but if Jagz really wants to file 3RR - that's his business. --evrik ^(talk) 00:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SSB/Shashi Tharoor

I've put in an RFC over the controversy on the Shashi Tharoor page. Might you be interested? Ekantik 17:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loss of Funding

I moved the Loss of Funding section again. Is it okay now or do you still like the old way? --Jagz 06:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elephants

Thanks, didn't want to get trampled by vandals again! — xaosflux ^Talk 03:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:MONGO

MONGO has had enough harrassment by ED trolls. Leave him and his Talk page alone, or you will be blocked. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

So long as you don't harrass him again. I have just blocked User:Jgp for restoring the ED link. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You are very welcome

Of course, the Wiki process seems at time chaotic and it is very easily for tempers to flare. I hope that you never felt that I was offended by your comments. I've been around long enough to know that this is just how things work, and that they _do_ work. I think the article is much better. There had been some loose facts creep in along with typos and other editorials mis-steps. While I am taking a necessary Wiki-break due to needing to run a political campaign, I think there is now just one major issue left exposed - how to treat other youth organization policies - and one minor issue - appropriate treatment of the local nondiscrimination policy issue. I am sure that while I am gone, those issues will be worked, and re-worked and end up being a very fine treatment. It's been a pleasure working with you on this. See you after Nov. 7 (or sometime). --NThurston 15:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Have these concerns been addressed yet? --Jagz 22:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome back

I noticed you were back and busy on WP:AN/I. If you can squeeze in the time, we are up to our  !!! in alligators on the Talk:Ebionites page. We can't get a word in edgewise to do any serious editing with all the allegations and personal attacks going on. Please make it stop. Ovadyah 00:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Alec, thanks for your comments. The disputes were moved to a new archive, Talk:Ebionites/Neo-Ebionite 2#Act Bold. Briefly, there was a second AfD after an editor restored the deleted Ebionite Restoration Movement article. After three reverts and three speedy deletes, the stub was finally page protected. The comments that follow are a lot of bitter words that I feel cross over the line to personal attacks. (You are mentioned as my meatpuppet collaborator.) The incivility is now being directed at Loremaster, who is the primary editor. Productivity has ground to a halt, and I'm searching for a way to get things moving again. Ovadyah 01:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

no problem at all. regards, --Aminz 03:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you Alec for you efforts about OD article and talk.

I am very agree with you and your NPOV. Opus Dei editors and supporters it seems a group of fanatics. The matter is that they are a powerful lobby. Mostly editions of this lobby are the same edition. Thomas Major it seems the boss of them. All editions are strongly supporter by other fanatics editors, probably Opus Dei members. I hope that some day the administrators make something with all these brochures. I know OD methods, the logical fallacies, the fallacious interpretations of NPOV and the cheats. The obbsesion with biased arguments based in hundred of quotes from selected scholars. They prefer a bad (I think that some of them believe that wikireaders are stupids) article, a brochure better than a good article. Do not miss hope. Certainly discuss with fanatics it is like to talk with a hard rock. Mostly of them probably received direct instructions by the Office of Public Opinion about the "apostolate of public opinion". I know docs about OD, and the strategy is like you can see. Thank you very much Alec, I wish to follow editing, wikistress is not a problem.--Heavyrock 20:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. An article about OD is likely to have OD members and pro-OD people interested. This, in itself, doesn't make a bad or biased article. Otherwise, the same argument could be made for anti-opus people - the "fanatics" from the other side. The article should be judged as it is, point blank. I agree also that there is a NPOV problem, but not that big. The 2 sides are there, Allen is reliable. A little cut would be enough. Louisar 23:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] heads-up on a new user

Just wanted to let you know that SafeLibraries has a new username and his userpage seems to imply a continued crusade. Jessamyn (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts

Alec I have never doubted your sincerity. I am sure they are good faith edits done with a view to improving the article. If you want to know what I think, which I gather is part of your query, I think Luke and Acts were defiantly written by the same author, and there is no real reason to think that it wasn't Luke (since he was hardly significant enough to warrant a pseudonym, and I think the text is too early to be Christian pseudonymity anyway). As for Q, I think it must more fitting to simply say that Luke had a copy of Mark and used that, among other material unique to him. Lostcaesar 08:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help!!

Hey Alec!!! There's a guy at OD. You know him. It's Heavyrock. Keeps on inserting some unpublished from ODAN writings. Please tell him something. He's method's not the right way to fight... Ndss 15:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ALA

Thanks for the background on this... it is my knowledge from dealing with controversy/criticism section disputes at other articles that they should, per Wiki standards, be completely devoid of 1)weasel words, i.e. "twit" is completely unnacceptable, referenced or not, and 2)refs that are secondary editorials or blogs. The ALA criticism had both of these issues, so the validity/significance of the criticisms is almost moot. Beyond that, if legitandcompelling wants to hunt down an objective primary source and filter out the derogatory language, that is a different story. Thanks.--Jackbirdsong 23:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad I could help - let me know if you have any more issues with the page.--Jackbirdsong 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts of the Apostles

You posted a question on the Reference Desk about the Book of Acts. Religion is a very touchy subject, and as I wish to avoid getting embroiled in a fight with anyone there, I am responding here. A few preliminary remarks may not be out of order.

1. You are looking for resources on the Internet. The difficulty with that is that most Internet sites indulge in "preaching to the choir." One either finds proselytizing "true believers" who are convinced that every word in their poorly translated bible is the Word of God, and who smugly warn the rest of us that we're headed straight for hell, or one finds proselytizing atheists who are convinced that no two consecutive words in any book of the bible doesn't constitute a lie, and who smugly declare the rest of us to be imbeciles. It is thus difficult to find a site on the net that will state the facts soberly.
2. It is best to understand that, with no negative connotation in mind, that the Book of Acts is a piece of propaganda. That is, the author is attempting to convince his audience of something. Now, certainly, the truth is an excellent source for propaganda. So saying that the purpose of Acts is to convince the reader of something does not, in itself, condemn it. (Nor, of course, does it guarantee the book's accuracy.)
3. It is universally accepted that the author/editor of the Gospel According to Luke is also responsible for Acts. Randel Helms (Who Wrote the Gospels?) reminds us that the gospels often tell us less about the persons in them than about their authors. So, then, who was "Luke?" Note that the two volumes of Luke/Acts are anonymous. That they were written by Paul's physician and sometime travelling companion is merely a 3rd century guess. Well, what can we determine from a close reading of the text? One thing is clear, even in translation it is evident that Luke is literarily superior to the authors of the other three canonical gospels. Luke is more highly educated than they and is quite familiar with Greek literature. Considring the style of the original Koiné Greek, an Aegean provinance is most likely. So far, nothing controversial.
4. However, if we continue to look closely at Acts, with sufficient background knowledge, a definite picture begins to emerge. Acts paints of picture of harmony among the earliest Christians. With everyone in agreement, Luke is guaranteeing that the viewpoints and beliefs of the Church must be exactly what Jesus wanted, passed on through the apostles to the reader. Yet when we read Paul's epistles from the 40s and 50s, here's what we find

   "I have been told . . . that there is quarrelling among you . . . that each of you is saying: 'I am for Paul,' or 'I am for Apollos,' or 'I follow Cephas' or 'I Christ'." (1 Cor. 1:11-12)

   Four different sects of Christians in one town a dozen years after the crucifiction? If the beginnings of Christianity were really as stated by the Gospels and the Book of Acts, this would be impossible. Note, too, the vituperation of the author of 1 John about the schismatics in his own church. Notice, also, how the the Epistle of James contradicts (and, IMO, refutes) Paul's "faith alone" doctrine.
   Then we might notice that Paul, who admits in his epistles that he is not a good speaker, but writes well, is a marvelous speaker in Acts. Oddly, though, Peter's speeches are totally indistinguishable from Paul's, both in form an content. But in the epistles, it is clear that they don't really get along at all. These orations are, of course, Luke's own compositions. Then there's the "Grecian" party centered on Stephen. Strangely, they have names that are to be found as characters in Plato's dialogues. Then there's Stephen himself. It's peculiar how closely his trial mimics Jesus' in Luke's gospel. Luke seems to believe that "a good story is a good story," and is willing to tell it over and over again. He tells of Paul's experience on the Damascus Road three times in Acts, but the details keep changing. Various incidents that happen to Paul happened to better-known folk in Josephus. Or they are incidents from Euripedes' plays. In fact Jesus' voice from heaven includes a line from The Bacchae. And how come the timing of Paul's visits to Jerusalem (and their purpose) in Acts don't match what Paul, himself, says in his letters? And if Paul had been harrying the Church as Acts states, how can Paul claim in his epistles that he was unknown to its leadership at the time of his conversion? And have you ever noticed that when Luke, the great universalist, has a miracle happen involving a man, almost immediately something similar happens to a woman? or if to a Jew, then right after to a gentile? And if Paul was a Roman citizen from birth, how come he reports being beaten and whipped repeatedly by the Lictors, which would have been totally illegal? And how could he have been a student of Gamliel, the head of the Pharisee party, as claimed in Acts, when he is (A) working for the High Priest, the head of the Saducee party, and (B) fails to demonstrate even the most rudimentary knowledge of Pharisee logic or exegesis?
5. When we put Luke and Acts together, the picture that emerges is this: Luke lived in the 2nd century and produced Luke/Acts circa 150 AD. Luke, unlike Mark who was an adult convert from paganism, may well have been born a Christian. Luke was probably upper class. And a woman. (See the Helms book for the reasoning on that last.)
6. Luke was also a major league plagarist, and in Acts of the Apostles wrote the most fraudulant book in the canon, surpassing even Daniel.

But, of course, it wasn't my word on this that you wanted, but a source in the Internet. Okay, here goes. [1] Now this is merely a book review. (The book itself, which I own, is excellent, and is what you really should read, but the review is a good start.) While not directly an analysis of Acts, both the book and the review go over the same territory as Acts and highlight what Luke was up to. It's not an easy read, and the book is less so, but then your "simple" question wasn't so simple after all. B00P 06:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I have filed a formal complaint against NazireneMystic on the Personal Attack noticeboard if you want to add any comments [2]. Ovadyah 04:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFA Thanks

[edit] Deletion review

Not a problem, I am trying to be civil, but badlydrawnjeff has an agenda to keep almost everything, and we've all been through this multiple times, plus jeff has a vested interest since he's a poster at ED. And there have been ED-ites banned from Wikipedia for their continued attacking of MONGO. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] your opinion?

I feel, again, that this is pushing the boundaries of what LAEC shoudl be doing to the ALA Wikipedia page. While I don't disagree with the edit per se (though I think the point is so minor as to not really be worth making an edit) I feel that his continual attention to this article and pushing of the envelope of what he wants the article to be like is, once again, stretching it. I was just wondering what you thought, because perhaps I am too close to this issue. Jessamyn (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I posted the wrong link, I meant the subsequent one, but I'lll take your advice to heart in any case, thank you! Jessamyn (talk) 04:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving Alecmconroy! ^{This method of wishing someone a happy thanksgiving has been stolen (with permission) from Randfan (talk • contribs).} | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 01:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I wish you a happy Thanksgiving! I hope you and your family have a magnificent day! So, what are you thankful for? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 01:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Happy Turkey Day from AndonicO! Enjoy!

.

By the way, how can you be an athiest and a jesuit at the same time? ;-) | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 19:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei

Let keep the discussions on my talk page. Taxico 10:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei PR

Please move old PRs to a different title before making a new request. Users who click the link at the talkpage to what they will think is the ongoing peer review will wind up at the PR from back in May. Somewhat confusing, I'd say.
Peter ^Isotalo 13:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei

Hi Alec, I've replied to your edit to the Opus Dei discussion page. Let's see how things go.

Pax.

Iamlondon 14:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi Alec. Per your request on my Talk page, I've chimed in about your OD changes on its Talk page. Interesting observation (which may be outdated in a few minutes!): comments about your content and organization changes are overwhelmingly positive, while comments about your methods and procedures of doing the changes are overwhelmingly negative. Regardless of the motives or edit histories of the negative commentors, if the content comments were running 50/50 or so, I would side with the methods/procedures people. But as they are very positive, I backed keeping your changes as the new status quo and then settling the procedural dispute, on account of WP not being a bureaucracy. Regardless of the outcome, I do commend you for a stellar article. Baccyak4H (talk) 15:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: FYI, others have been calling for comments about your changes, much like you have done, but have implied in the request that the changes were solely a POV imposition. While I would agree that there are still balance issues, you have explicitly pointed out five other issues besides POV which you meant to improve upon. This misrepresentation could span anywhere from good but misguided intentions due to ignorance, to disingenuous fearmongering and troop rallying. Naturally, we should assume the former. In any case, understanding how your changes have been portrayed may be helpful in future discussions. Baccyak4H (talk) 16:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply - Opus Dei

In regards to the Opus Dei article, I find the NPOV problems manageable with its current format. The article does reference the reputable criticisms towards the Church prelature, even if a more complete version is due. I do support a more complete section on the criticisms. However, as you have most likely found out, there are many highly devoted members and supporters of Opus Dei who do not take drastic changes within the article lightly, especially considering opposing criticisms. In the past I have found that when an editor does not bring a neutral point of view into their additions or editions, correcting their error and warning them personally works best. -- AJ24 23:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei- RFC

I'll try to take a look at it in the few days because I'm really busy right now. Not sure how much help I'll be on this article though. --Jagz 08:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I looked through the article but don't think I'm qualified to comment on this topic. --Jagz 21:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei

Mr. Conroy. I plan to revert to the old version until you have provided proof as stated here. Lafem 09:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Escriva's self-mortification

Regarding Escriva's self-mortification, I don't want to go into it in any detail in the Opus Dei article (as you say, that's for the Josemaria Escriva article itself), but it should at least be mentioned in the Opus Dei article, not least because he originated the practice and serves as a role model for the movement. I'll also defend the word "vigorous": Opus Dei does not, AFAIK, require its members to flagellate themselves to the same degree as their founder. -- The Anome 13:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei

I'm going to watch to see what happens with NPOV flag. I don't have a lot of time right now to go into a full-fledged debate, but I will try to moderate. As a Lutheran, I do not exactly support Opus Dei, so my voice in trying to defend the article should have some weight. I'm not really in the FA process -- I'd have to think too hard to do that! GA is steep enough for me. 8-) --CTSWyneken^(talk) 14:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can you spare a moment?

Hi, I know you're busy, but I wanted to point out this AfD. Your input would be welcome : ) Doc Tropics 20:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and insights. This was only my third AfD nom, so I threw every detail I could think of into the "reasons for deleting" text, and hoped that others would help sort it out. I think it's going fairly well at this point; thanks again for contributing. Doc Tropics 21:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AGF

Hi Alec. Thanks for your note. :) AGF is such an excellent policy, I don't think this encyclopedia would ever move forward if it were not in place.

As regards what will happen, well, I just have to leave everything in His hands. I'm hardly the creator of anything, but just doing what I think is right. :) Thomas 06:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problems with Image:Cilice3.jpg

Dominick ^(TALK) 19:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acts of the Apostles

Hello again.

It's been bothering me that sending you to that Book Review wasn't as helpful as could be. Here's a much better resource.

Acts as History

You may supplement that with

Acts as Source.

B00P 04:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OD

Alec,I am glad I could help. Let me run through a few of your comments.

About the sentence on Hitler – that sort of thing just happens. A controversial sentence appears, and so people scramble for refs to back it up; eventually we end up with eight or so that may or may not match. Its just how it goes.

As for "penitential mortification", my experience with this is in its medieval form (I study medieval history), in which it was a penitential monastic practice. The most famous mortifier I know of is Radegund, though perhaps better known are the flagellants. I assumed that OD practiced the same (albeit a milder form) of this penitence – but I have never talked with anyone in OD about it. Perhaps it was a mistaken assumption. My apologies.

Now the cilice, this is a bit different. In medieval Latin cilicium means hairshirt. They were uncomfortable garments worn originally by Egyptian monks and brought to southern France and popularized by St. Martin's, Tours, very early in the Middle Ages. Its name derives from the Cicilian goat hair that they are made out of (Cilicia is in Asia Minor - where St. Paul was from). Maybe in a modern context it has come to mean any uncomfortable mortifying item, but I think we could use a source for this. As for the image, I still have some problems with it. It strikes me as using a picture of JFK's motorcade after the assassination from a group called "Oswald Innocence Organization". So I am still a bit uneasy about this. Some reliable sources all around would make be feel much better.

As for mortification in general, I think we can structurally improve this matter a bit in the article. At present, we say who mortifies under a list of positions on OD, but we don't introduce mortification until after. We should probably define something before we mention it, especially something easily misunderstood. Also, I wonder if it is really central to that section, since mortification is one pious act, and we don't mention any other pious acts that some members might do. So perhaps we could cut it from that section or, if not, then introduce mortification earlier.

Overall I think the article is doing well, despite the challenges of such a sensitive topic. Critical pov's are generally well handled in a proper section without too much weight given them, and I am glad the article does not cite fiction as fact. There are some areas to improve on. Most of the sources are Internet articles and, though fine, these could be better. For example, we cite an online book review a couple times concerning the content of the book, when the much better thing to do would be to cite the actual book. But this will clear up in time I hope.

I really appreciate that you took the time to look over my edits. Sometimes, when I clean up an article by moving a paragraph here or removing bullet points there, co-editors will see a lot of red and, without reading to notice that the content is the same, jump to the rv button. This conversely has been a nice experience of collegiality.

Cheers,

Lostcaesar 10:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for uncovering that weblink to the CNN article. That is the sort of source I was looking for. We still have some technical problems with the picture, but it seems less urgent now. I suppose if we end up without a picture we could still describe the item well enough. I have a few more points to make about the article. Concerning the controversy section. First, I think the bullet point is bad style for an encyclopedia article, and I think if you look at wikipedia good articles, you will be hard pressed to find such a presentation (bullet point of criticisms). I really think, stylistically, we should make this a paragraph. Also, I notice that you did not prefer my edit, which presented the material slightly differently. My attempt was to represent the sources properly. They were mostly from ODAN, and if not, then from new articles which vaguely said "critics", unnamed, and whatever the case had far fewer accusations than ODAN. I noticed in your edit commentary that you said that there were other critics besides ODAN. This may well be the case, but at present the article does not support its general claims with references. I understand if you need time to get more sorces, and I am willing to be patient. However, in the meantime it might be preferable to use the edit I made. We could preserve the older version on a userpage sandbox until it can be better referenced. Lastly, as to the section on mortification, I think some of the criticisms can be better handled in the criticism section, especially those made by ODAN, and we might was just a general sentence in the mort. section describing criticism. Thoughts? Lostcaesar 14:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So, let's see. The image itself is fine-- just a minor case of copyright paranoia, hehehe. About the identities of the critics-- as luck would have it this old version of the Controversies article has a giant "yellow pages" of the most-vocal critics, as it were. ODAN is basically code for the DiNicolas, who are two, but only two of the critics. So far, I don't know of any criticism that is being made only by them-- in general, the criticisms predate them. Between the Hutchison book, the del Carmen Tapia, and the Walsh book, I think every single criticism is in there. So, no, no-- it's not just ODAN. If you want for the purposes of citation, I can look around try to find web-accessable citations of non-ODAN people making the specific criticisms, just for the sake of ironcladness, but let's definitely NOT say that ODAN is the only one making the criticims-- that would takes us from sentences that are true,cited, and possibly web-citable, and transform them into sentences that are false. lol.

About the bullett points list, I'm less sure of myself. I can read a book that tells me for a fact ODAN isn't the only one making a certain criticism-- finding a book telling me whether or not the section is better in bulletpoints is harder. heheh. Let's see what Bish, Doc, Baccyak and some of the others think. Bulletpoints are briefer, which I know was a big concern of the OD members. If we go to prose, we have to include topic sentences and explanatory sentences, and the like or else we'll sound schiziophrenic. On the other hand, the bullet points are style we don't use elsewhere in the article, so maybe we shouldn't use them here either. Let's see what they think.

What I'm really stymied about is the Controversies about Opus Dei. Right now there's basically no organizing scheme to the thing. I'm trying to decide whether it should be organized "by faction", "by topic" or "chronologically". If you have a chance to look it over, I'd majorly appreciate your suggestions on it! :) --Alecmconroy 15:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph form would not be too long; check out this example, which says everything the bullets say. Lostcaesar 15:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want it to be a good article I think you need to drop the bullets; do some asking, I will work on the paragraph's prose. Lostcaesar 15:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

In general the MOS gives strong preference to paragraph formatting rather than lists. However, there are exceptions to the general rule, and criticism/controversy sections are one of the most common. Due to the nature of these topics, it is often much more clear and effective to highlight the individual points with bullets. I reviewed both the original content in the article, and LC's text version. The text LC provided is well written and quite lucid, but due to the number of individual facts involved, as well as the number of refs and hyperlinks, it looks a bit cluttered and hard to follow.

I'm afraid that regardless of the quality of writing, a paragraph format is simply not going to look as coherent as the list format. Just my two cents : ) Doc Tropics 16:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm LMAO because you refered to me as a celeb : )

I did a bit of tweaking to "Criticisms" and explained on the talkpage. I also want to reorganize "Replies" for better flow. Are we having fun yet? Doc Tropics 21:16, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If those things made you worry, you should have seen My Beliefs and Interests. It has been nice working with you Alec. I have butted heads with many editors, and am rather used to differing points of view, but generally so long as everyone is willing to be reasoned with things can move along nicely. There is still one part of the criticism section that makes me nervious. The supposed quote about Hitler, reported by "a certain priest" and hosted on two websites that I have no reason to trust — it just seems a little over the top. That aside, I think the article is getting much better and am glad you have contributed and been likewise willing to work with me. Cheers; Lostcaesar 09:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Your beliefs page is interesting-- we share quite a number, but I won't say whichs ones. As regards the hitler allegations-- that has worried me to that we leave that a little too "un-rebutted". I think what we say about it crticism is factual--- I'm pretty sure that it's undisputed that (1) the priest does make those claims about Escriva saying those two quotes. Similarly, I think it's undisputed that (2) the critics make so much mention of that issue (in the press and elsewhere), that the issue is notable. The biggie source for these two statements are the Hitchens book, but we have four different cites to back up those sentence (two are hidden). More cites could be obtained, but I said, I don't think anyone disputes those two assertions.

Because of that, I wouldn't want to just delete the quotes, for example, because they are a valid part of the dialog. Recognizing, however, as that the criticism isn't a very reliable assertion, I suspect we should add extra rebuttal to that particular issue. We already directly quote the Prelate's denial, but I would like more there, and will look for some.

As an aside, something that's bugged me is that the controversy article never makes the case that even if all the Franco/Hitler allegations _WERE_ true, that still doesn't necessarily makes Escriva/OD "bad". Here is my simple, totally original research thoughts on something that could be said on that issue:

It's claimed that Escriva supported the Fascists. If it's true--- Big deal! WWII was gave people a choice between Fascismm and Communism, and by and large, people chose to support whichever side wasn't actively trying to kill them. For Escriva, you have the Communists under Stalin-- already having total violations of any rights, already having genocidal campaigns. And you have the Fascists-- bad and totalitarian to be sure, but they weren't trying to abolish the church and murder the catholics.

I don't care who you are-- when you have to pick sides between a bad person actively trying to kill and a bad person actively trying to kill the person who wants to kill you--- your choice is clear. If Escriva's alleged support of Franco/Hitler seems shockings it's because we're looking at it through the lense of a post-war western power: where the choise is between democracy and totalitarianism. We equate Hitler with satan, but we do that because we already know what happened in the camps under his regime. For someone like Escriva-- they didn't have a choice between democracies and totalitarianism--- they only have a choice between fasciscm and communism. Simiilarly they didnt' have the benefit of hindsight-- while they could know about that stalinist purges, Hitler's holocaust was obviously something that people didn't firmly believe yet.

That may make Escriva guilty of being a bad historian or something, but the fact is, whole nations full of good people supported Hitler. We don't criticize all germans, and they DIRECTLY supported Hitler, even going so far as to fightt for him, whereas St. Josemaria is only accused of having expressed ambivalence about whether the things being said about Hitler were true. In short, the very worst we can say about Escriva on the issue is that he was a little too guilty of "Assuming Good Faith"-- not quite quick enough to recognize evil in other humans. But does that make Escriva a bad person, or a good one?

So, anyway, that's the way I tend to go about responding. So far it's just my OR, but I bet someone notable has thought the make the same points, and it's something we ought to mention if we ever get to the controversies article. People say he said the Hitler stuff, so we have to mention it, but we don't have to treat its like it's persuasive, and we can definitely add more rebuttal in. I'll work on it finding more sources and more rebuttal-- hopefully one online, but if nothing good poops up, I can alwways go to the print sources to find a nice reponse from OD's supporters on the hitlet stuff. I already know at leat one reply I can add. --Alecmconroy 20:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

RE: I think a simply way to say some of your point would be to mention the anticlericalism of the Spanish Civil War. The number of priests and religious killed in those few years was tremendous, far more than the numbers killed, for example, by all the inquisitions and witch-hunts over centuries combined. Lostcaesar 21:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for the late response. Sorry to tell you this, I don't know anything much about Opus Dei, so I cannot comment further. Besides, I don't have anything to say about the Criticisms section, but do ask me to comment on Opus Dei again. I would love to comment, but I can't say much due to my vague knowledge of the topic. Terence Ong 17:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AfD//Opus Dei and civil leaders

Done. My apologies for the error. - Best regards, Mailer Diablo 23:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opus Dei RFC

LM-- First off-- the Ebionites article is looking really great! Good job. I keep meaning to learn enough about Ebionites to be able to help out over there, but other wikipedia things keep grabbing my attention. I better hurry though, because if ya'll keep editing, I'm sure you guys will be up to FAC in no time.

Anyway-- I have recently done a major rewrite on the Opus Dei article and am requesting comments on its talk page. In doing so, I've upset some people not unlike NazireneMystic-- single-purpose accounts with strong religious views about the subject of the article. Some want the whole thing reverted outright, some think it violates NPOV. If you have a second, could you look it over and comment on whether the rewrite is an improvment, if it's NPOV, and maybe help out in the ensuing discussion? --Alecmconroy 14:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't know enough about Opus Dei to be of much help. Sorry. --Loremaster 18:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone with as many edits as you have should enable email.---Alecmconroy 18:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Why? --Loremaster 18:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because once you're a regular contributor, sometimes it's helpful to be able to contact people-- i.e. if they haven't been on-wiki lately, or if you want to ask a private opinion, etc. --Alecmconroy 20:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've had problems with email harrassment in the past so I tend to avoid enabling it. --Loremaster 20:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OD new version

My definite opinion is not yet made about the new version versus the old one and the vandalism issue. To my knowledge there is only one clear mistake, or inexactitude in the new one. It has to do with the "rather than" the dioceses. The prelate has authority ONLY concerning the specific goals of OD. The rest is under the diocesan bishop. In principle it's a shared jurisdiction. I've edited the new version in 3 passages about that topic.

yours

Louisar 23:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

All sources seem to agree that OD members are under the direct jurisdiction of OD. In contrast, there are no sources that describe personal prelatures as "shared jurisdiction" (see google searches: [3][4][5][6]. ) Nonetheless, I added the language about "working in harmony with local dioceses" to the replies to criticism section. --Alecmconroy 12:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Youre wrong. I don't know if you are catholic, but it is obvious that no lay catholic may be under the juridiction of OD rather than of his diocesan bishop. I will refer to canon law and correct your mistake another time. I appreciate your "harmony" stuff but it's not enough and not precise: these are legal matters first, opinion matters second (that is, critics of OD are saying that the shared jusrisdiction ( in principle and in the law) is not in fact shared, or is not shared enough). But jurisdiction is not a fact, it's a legal concept. May I add that youre looking like the boss about this article and it seems to me that you take all the place. At the moment, my reference is OD site - Place in the church:

"The Opus Dei Prelature is a jurisdictional structure belonging to the pastoral and hierarchical organisation of the Church. Like dioceses, territorial prelatures, vicariates and military ordinariates, it has its own autonomy and ordinary jurisdiction to carry out its mission in the service of the whole Church. For that reason it is dependent immediately and directly on the Roman Pontiff, through the Congregation for Bishops.

The authority of the prelate has to do only with the specific mission of the Prelature, and is thus in harmony with the authority of the diocesan bishop in regards to the ordinary pastoral care of the faithful of the diocese:

a) The lay faithful of Opus Dei are subject to the authority of the Prelate in all that refers to the fulfillment of the ascetical, formational, and apostolic commitments which they take up by the formal declaration incorporating them into the Prelature. By virtue of their content, these commitments do not interfere with the authority of the diocesan bishop. At the same time, the lay faithful of Opus Dei continue to be faithful of the dioceses in which they reside, and thus remain under the authority of the diocesan bishop in exactly the same way and regarding the same matters as any other baptized person in the diocese."

I've just cut and paste so i let the "harmony" (perhaps a NPOV problem there) word; but harmony is not the point. The point is the sharing, or more precisely, the delimitations of jurisdictions according to the specific goals. We're not dealing with opinions or criticism here, but with the laws and functionnig of Catholic Church. I'm not sure you're the most competent person about that. Let the others contribute.

Yours Louisar 17:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Replied to User talk:Louisar. --Alecmconroy 19:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. Now this clear mistake is removed. Thanks. I will add a few words to your last version because it amounts to say that OD jurisdiction is not diocesan and territorial; but the way you say it, it may be interpreted in the "rather than" sense meaning the the member is not under the diocesan bishop jurisdiction. We must say the the jusridiction of the diocesan bishop is not cancelled, according to law.

By shared jurisdiction, I mean separate jurisdictions according to specific goals. Opus works is about formation and spirituality. You cannot baptized your kid there, you cannot marry nor have your funeral in the Opus residence chapel. If the bishop decides that you cannot teach catechesis because youre heretic or incompetent, the national vicar of OD cannot grant you the mission to teach, etc. etc. That's the main sense of "sharing". But there is more, below, in the rules: it seems that even in the sphere of the specific goals, the local bishop must have a say, in the sense that local dioceses have norms, and so the OD spiritual activities must take place inside thoses norms. If fact, these issues are resolved in an indirect and pragmatic fashion: OD cannot come in a diocese without the bishop invitation, so it's obvious that if a diocese asks OD to come, it's because OD spirituality can take place within its frame.

Relevant canons are (Canon law code):

Can. 294 Personal prelatures may be established by the Apostolic See after consultation with the Episcopal Conferences concerned. They are composed of deacons and priests of the secular clergy. Their purpose is to promote an appropriate distribution of priests, or to carry out special pastoral or missionary enterprises in different regions or for different social groups.

Can. 297 The statutes are likewise to define the relationships of the prelature with the local Ordinaries in whose particular Churches the prelature, with the prior consent of the diocesan Bishop, exercises or wishes to exercise its pastoral or missionary activity.

Then the pope says it's ok in a document like Ut sit. But before that, the Congregation of bishop gives more precision to the canon (it goes from law to rules) :

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR BISHOPS Declaration concerning Opus Dei

III. The jurisdiction of the prelate

a) the power of the prelate is an ordinary power of jurisdiction or government, limited to that which refers to the specific finality of the Prelature, and differs substantially, by reason of the matter involved, from the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishops in the ordinary spiritual care of the faithful; ... d) the laity are under the jurisdiction of the prelate in regard to what has to do with the fulfillment of the specific ascetic formative and apostolic commitments which they have freely undertaken by means of the contractual bond dedicating them to the service of the aims of the Prelature.

IV. With reference to ecclesiastical territorial laws and to the legitimate rights of local ordinaries:

a) as established by law the members of the Prelature must observe the territorial norms which refer to general directives of a doctrinal, liturgical and pastoral nature, the laws concerning public order and, in the case of the priests, also the general discipline of the clergy;

b) the priests of the Prelature must obtain the ministerial faculties of the competent territorial authority, to exercise their ministry with people who do not form part of Opus Dei;

c) the laity incorporated in the Prelature Opus Dei continue to be faithful of the dioceses in which they have their domicile or quasidomicile and are, therefore, under the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishop in what the law lays down for all the ordinary faithful.

V. In regard to the pastoral coordination with local ordinaries, and the fruitful insertion of the Prelature Opus Dei in the local Churches, it is also established that:

a) the prior permission of the competent diocesan bishop is required for the erection of each center of the Prelature.

[edit] Opus Dei

Certainly, I'll take a look. (Radiant) 10:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jurisdiction of OD

Hello Alec. Thanks for your reply. Here is what I have to say. I' ll comment also about the new version.

After Alec corrected a mistake he had added in his new version (the old one was ok on that score), saying “members fall under the direct jurisdiction of the Prelate of Opus Dei, rather than that of their local dioceses.”, I said that is was necessary to specify more precisely the nature of personal prelature: the "not territorial" (negative) aspect is not enough, because it implies that a prelature is a super diocese taking the place of a local diocese. Canon law says it's not the case. Alec now asks:

The reference to "specific spiritual mission"-- I don't know what that means in practice. Obviously, I know what Opus Dei's mission is, and I appreciate that Opus Dei's jurisdiction only extends to doing that mission-- it doesn't, for example, its jurisdiction doesn't cover running a for-profit lemonade stand, for example. I think this is obvious, but perhaps you're making a specific point I don't understand. In straightforward english, what exactly is it your trying to say with the "specific spiritual mission" statement? That OD doesn't conflict with diocese? that OD doesn't do things unrelated to spirituality? That OD is good, or that it has the sanction of the Holy See? If you tell me what point you want to make that you feel isn't being made in the article, maybe we can figure out a way to make it in ways that are verifiable, NPOV, and in encyclopedic tone. --Alecmconroy 11:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Everything i say on that is perfectly verifiable, because i refer to the statutes. The point is that the mission of OD, or of a personal prelature, is not the same as that of a diocese, and this is the main point, more important that the territorial aspect. It is BECAUSE of the specific mission that it is not territorial. So If you talk only about territory, you put what is second before what is first. The relevant canons are (Code of canon law):

TITLE IV: PERSONAL PRELATURES (Cann. 294 - 297)

Can. 294 Personal prelatures may be established by the Apostolic See after consultation with the Episcopal Conferences concerned. They are composed of deacons and priests of the secular clergy. Their purpose is to promote an appropriate distribution of priests, or to carry out special pastoral or missionary enterprises in different regions or for different social groups.

Can. 295 §1 A personal prelature is governed by statutes laid down by the Apostolic See. It is presided over by a Prelate as its proper Ordinary. He has the right to establish a national or an international seminary, and to incardinate students and promote them to orders with the title of service of the prelature.

§2 The Prelate must provide both for the spiritual formation of those who are ordained with this title, and for their becoming support.

Can. 296 Lay people can dedicate themselves to the apostolic work of a personal prelature by way of agreements made with the prelature. The manner of this organic cooperation and the principal obligations and rights associated with it, are to be duly defined in the statutes.

Can. 297 The statutes are likewise to define the relationships of the prelature with the local Ordinaries in whose particular Churches the prelature, with the prior consent of the diocesan Bishop, exercises or wishes to exercise its pastoral or missionary activity.

We see that the non-territorial aspect (your "rather than") is not even mentioned; the special enterprises is what is really what a personal prelature is all about. So we must mention the mission BEFORE the territory, as it is BECAUSE of the mission that there is non territorial (or a non-diocesan bishop jurisdiction - and a partial one). Another example about the canonical meaning of "personal": In a U.S. diocese, you have some personal parishes, in the sense that one parish covers the whole diocese, but for Polish people: here the parish is personal rather than territorial , but in the language-cultural sense. Some parishes are tridentine, because they use the gregorian mass, so the difference is liturgical-spiritual. So the non-territorial aspect must be partial, because it is a nonsense for a catholic to be totally independant from his diocesan bishop, in the case of a personal prelature. So the point is not only that there is no conflict of jurisdiction with a diocese (this point is not the point anyway, because there is some sharing, probably); the important point, apart from simple truth and accuracy (mission before territory) , is that the jurisdiction doesn't take the whole place of the diocese (you must marry in a diocesan church etc.); the member is really not under the jurisdiction of the prelate RATHER THAN under that of his bishop.

There is another point: since I honestly think I'm more competent than you about those things, perhaps it would be better that I always ask you the reasons of all your editing, instead of you always asking me. Again, youre not the boss. Plus there were imperfections in the old version, but no clear mistakes that competent catholic canonists would see. Your new version added a clear mistake and now you fight for something that is less precise, if not ambiguous, over something that is more precise. It's tiring a little bit. The details I was adding should have been given the benefit of the doubt. Yours Louisar 17:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Alec, see below. I didn' know about this rule. Let's discuss on the OD discussion page about the rather than, under OD jurisdiction. We may also cut the "prelature" word altogether. For the time being, you can restore the "wherever they are" version, because it's only inexact, not false. See you. Louisar 19:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Doc Tropics has restored the bad version. I meant this one: "its jurisdiction covers the persons in Opus Dei wherever they are, rather than being defined by a specific geographic region like a diocese". I told him. See was must be done. The rather than remains false in the version restored by Doc. I'll think about another wording. Louisar

Possible path: the very accurate article on personal prelatures to which your version is referring says: "In the case of Opus Dei, the prelate is elected by members of the prelature and confirmed by the Pope, the laity and clergy of the prelature are still under the governance of the particular church where they live..." Particular church is a diocese. All we have to do is to find a way to give coherence between this reference and the "rather than" figuring in the same sentence of the Opus article. Suggestions, Alec? Louisar 21:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Alec, my congratulations to you for your efforts with these articles, by the way, do you understand Spanish language? Why? well I think that the information about OD in that language is very useful, for your interest about the prelature. The enormous amount with very hight quality information from ex members, testimonies, deep analysis, books about controversial elements, internal OD documents, writings of the foundator, etc published by opuslibros are an excellent source..--Heavyrock 02:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR warning

Alec, you have reverted Opus Dei three times in eight hours. This means that you'll be in breach of the three-revert rule if you revert one more time within the next 16 hours. Don't do that, or you'll be blocked from editing. Bishonen | talk 19:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Good Article

I have nominated the Ebionites article for Good Article status [7]. Thanks for your oversight from RFC to get it there. Ovadyah 16:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] topical

well you have other articles which focus on specific aspects of peoples' lives such as Parables of Jesus/Miracles of Jesus, there's one about the Professional life of George W. Bush. none of them are immediately comparable to 'Muhammad as a diplomat/general' but it's just to show that as well as main bio articles you can have forks discussing a specific class of documented events if it reaches notability, in the same way that Muhammad as a general article was up since '04 without much concern. even then, i think a move to the suggested articles is reasonable but i'll confirm my stance on this tomorrow. ITAQALLAH 03:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)