Talk:Alexander Lukashenko

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Contents

[edit] Discussion of the February 2 version

JG

Since when does "Czechia [sic]" feature as one of the neighbouring countries of Belarus? Where did Poland go in the meantime?


In the mean time, I agreed to let Adam's version be posted as a temporary measure. 172

I consequently reverted to the last Adam version. Do you agree on unprotection ? fr0069
Please don't unprotect it just yet: I have a strong feeling that we will simply see a resumption of the edit war. Could you please leave it protected a few more days to give 172 a chance to work through the factual issues on the Talk page? -- ChrisO 00:34, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Of course Chris. fr0069

172 is not an idiot or a vandal, he obviously does know a lot about Belarus and problems of post-Soviet economic development. The problem is the he insists on using a biographical article about Lukashenko as a vehicle for setting out these issues, and his opinions about them. If he could be persuaded to transfer his attention to History of Belarus or Economic problems of the former Soviet Union or somewhere similar, he would be much happier and so would we. Adam 01:24, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

ChrisO:

I am an administrator. Theoretically, I could have reverted the page the whole time if I were as desperate if you made me out to be. If you don't tone down your condescension and arrogance, we will not have an atmosphere conducive to working out our differences.

Theoretically you could have. But we all know that withing the next hours you would have been listed for desysoping 172. This would not be the good way. Fortunately, you would not do this :-) You three people opinion holds the same weight, and being sysop or not sysop is irrelevant here. fr0069

Once again, there is no need for us to go through each of our revisions point by point. I already confirmed ChrisO's facts. I will, however, respond to some of ChrisO's charges with respect to the content that he removed in my comments below. 172 03:29, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

172, the more conciliatory we try to be here, the more aggressive is the tone you adopt. We do not need you to (again) "respond to Chris's charges." We are not conducting an inquest here, we are writing an encyclopaedia article. I suggest you either make some constructive suggestions about the article as it now stands, or go and do something else. Adam 04:04, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

ChrisO:

You stated that I did not explain "what kind of facts should be included and what kinds of facts should be excluded." Apparently, you ignored much of what I was saying on this talk page.

To make things easier for you, I'm providing you with a summary. BTW, before you take these suggestions out of context and attack my motives, please reread my detailed postings from the past two days explaining my rationale with respect to every suggestion listed below.

  • Greater attention to his domestic base of support
  • More attention to his populist persona
  • Who are the opposition and why
  • The role of his base of support in the slow pace of reforms
  • Balanced origins of tensions with the West
  • Greater attention to Belarus-Russia relations relative to the amount of attention given to tensions with the West. I'm sure that ChrisO would agree that Russia is a more important actor in Belarus politics and economics.
  • Keeping the article focused on how he has consolidated power and reacted to challenges to his rule. This is more biographical. ChrisO and Adam's versions, in contrast, emphasize Western objections rather than look at him at the center of a historical account.
  • Trim down the number of Lukashenko intrigues and misstatements being presented. This serves to cast him as a capricious autocrat, which he is. But keep them at a minimum if they don't have much of an effect on his grip on power domestically.

172 05:23, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

that sounds reasonable :-)

I hate to harp on this, but these points of 172's:

  1. Who are the opposition and why
  2. The role of his base of support in the slow pace of reforms
  3. Balanced origins of tensions with the West
  4. Greater attention to Belarus-Russia relations relative to the amount of attention given to tensions with the West.

are not biographical. While they can be mentioned, detailed discussions of them belong in another article, such as History of Belarus. I will oppose efforts to re-introduce large amounts of this kind of material into the article. Adam 08:45, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I would suggest that items 1 and 2 in Adam's shortlist would be better placed in an article on Politics of Belarus and 3 and 4 in Foreign relations of Belarus. 172, you do evidently have some detailed knowledge of the post-Soviet situation, and I hope that you will continue to contribute it in the relevant articles. But I have to agree with Adam that the biography should be essentially factual - analysis is useful but it shouldn't override a straightforward historical account of events. I think that some of my material (such as the more detailed info on the human rights problem) should probably also be decanted into Politics of Belarus. 172, will you go along with this? -- ChrisO 10:19, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Very good. I think that we are making progress.

Yes, I agree to your proposals in principle. However, each of these can be addressed, and have to be addressed, when they pertain to the biography. And they all do. Let me clarify how Adam's four points can be tied into the biographical article.

I do favor a "straightforward historical account of events." I favor an "essentially factual" biography. What I mean is that "analysis" underpins (not overrides) what facts are going to be presented. Implicitly, we are always analyzing data when we make judgments of relevance. Talk pages are there for users to discuss these things.

I was unclear with some of the four points Adam claimed were not biographical. I meant to say that we need to relate all those points to the consolidation of his rule and his attempts to exploit key events to his advantage.

So my points should have read as follows:

  • Trace the conflicts between Lukashenko and the opposition
  • Trace the relationship between Lukashenko and his supporters, and how his reliance on this base of support has constrained his room to maneuver in economic policy and foreign policy
  • When tracing diplomatic spats with the West, link them to measures he has taken to tighten his grip of control on Belarus and maintain his base of support
  • Trace his efforts to promote ties with Russia
  • His recent setbacks under Putin.
  • Perhaps the article can conclude with note on why recent development in Belarus-Russia relations could spell the beginning of the end (hopefully!) for Lukashenko.

To sum it all up briefly, I'm saying that we should be focused on his consolidation of power over the years, how he has exploited the challenges of postcommunism to his advantage, and his handling of key events. Just as novels have their settings, this biography – focused on his dictatorship – will have to be presented in a historical context. I agree that my past attempts may have gone overboard, but the degree of social and economic stability his rule has afforded - relative to Russia - is key to understanding how he has stayed in power for nearly a decade. I'm not saying that this needs to be explicitly started, but that we should provide the relevant data to illuminate this.

172 18:43, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I am glad you three seem to be making progress toward a consensus :-) On top of it, I thought very constructive that Chris and Adam recognise the knowledge of 172 as regards post-Soviet situation, and are very willing to work on other articles on the topic. Very positive thought ! :-) fr0069

The discussion seems to have died down. Does this mean that there are no objections to my last set of comments? Is my approach clear? If this is the case, I'll eventually write a new version along the lines of the approach that I have just laid out, and link the article to the talk page as a proposal.

I will abandon the controversial old version. Now that I have addressed every confusion, I'm certain that I'll be able to draft a new version that will not be subject to the same misunderstandings. 172 07:24, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The discussion has died down because (a) I am more or less happy with the article as it stands and (b) neither you nor anyone else has yet suggested any amendments or additions to it. When and if you do so or someone else does so, battle can recommence. Adam 07:28, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps 172 can make a draft on a sub page of this talk page ? Potentially controversial points might appear more clearly perhaps ? Ant
I'm still inclined to think that the points suggested by 172 would be better placed in Politics of Belarus and Foreign relations of Belarus. For instance, "Trace his efforts to promote ties with Russia" and "His recent setbacks under Putin" are very obviously tied into the wider question of Belarus's relationship with Russia, a topic which is discussed (but not in much detail) in Foreign relations of Belarus. This is a bigger issue than just Lukashenko's activities (what happened between 1991 and 1994 and why did Russia initially support his rival, Kebich?) Similarly, "Trace the relationship between Lukashenko and his supporters, and how his reliance on this base of support has constrained his room to maneuver in economic policy and foreign policy" is bound up with the wider question of the development of civil society in Belarus (which goes back to before Lukashenko's election). This is a topic which should be dealt with in detail in Politics of Belarus, though the current version of the article appears to be culled entirely from the CIA World Factbook).
I don't see much point in providing overlapping content in the Lukashenko biographical article. Doing that would have three disadvantages: it would divorce the content from the wider context in the Foreign relations and Politics articles; it would probably necessitate the content being duplicated in those articles; and it would make the biographical article much longer. I think we should keep the biography concise and factual - as a summary of the man's life and work - and present the detailed contexts in the related background articles. I'd be happy to work with 172 on improving both Politics and Foreign relations, which clearly do need some work. 172's wider perspective would be very valuable there. -- ChrisO 10:13, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
This is all understandable. In time, I will link my proposed new version to this talk page. For now, Adam's version is fine, and it is certainly the best version drafted so far. The content of my proposal will not be radically different from the current article.
I will keep it concise and biographical. You may find that it is even more "biographical" and more of a "career overview" than the current article, which is already heavy on foreign relations (especially tensions with the West) and controversies that received a great deal of attention in the Western media and among policy circles, but were not defining moments in his career in Belarus.
I look forward to input for you both once I get the proposal linked to the talk page. 172 17:40, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You guys better be careful, Lukashenka might fine you if he does not like your article. See: http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/2004/02/05/koliada and http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/2004/02/02/pravda . — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 00:13, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'll keep that in mind once I'm free from my current distractions and able to get back to working on this article. BTW, could you add content in the mean time. You might be the most qualified, given your familiarity with the country and Russian language sources. 172 18:27, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
IMO it is high time to remove content. At the moment the size of the article exceeds that of Lenin, Stalin and Churchill summed together. Mikkalai 20:51, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And that is a bad thing because ... ? Is there an optimum length for a biographical article? -- ChrisO 23:14, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
... because in this particular case the inverted pyramid principle is forgotten. In this long read there is no track of relative importance. For all I care, you may include Luka's penis length, but the structure of the article is poor. Upon the first read I liked it. It is a good narrative, with some minor errors I will fix when the smoke settles down. But I'd suggest to look at articles about American presidents for structure and content of presentation. So far, it looks like the one about Arnold Schwarzenegger. Mikkalai 00:01, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia has no overall editor, and no overall editorial policy, there is no rule about writing articles to a length which corresponds to the objective importance of the topic. If you want to write 100,000 words on Butterflies of the upper Orinoco, no-one will stop you. So if the article on Lenin is shorter than this one, the solution is to write more on Lenin, not cut this one - which has already been cut fairly radically by me. I think this article is a reasonable length for one on a controversial current head of state. Adam 04:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What has happened to 172 and his proposed alternative to this text which he hated so much? Adam 07:16, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Still distracted. But I'll break free of the distractions some day and get it posted. BTW, I don't "hate it." It's a better-than-average article. It's probably better than most Reuters, New York Times, CNN, etc. profiles available online, and certainly better than the stumps found in the other online encyclopedias. My concerns, however, are essentially the same as Alex576's. He briefly alluded to them on the February mailing list. (Ironically, you, ChrisO, and I had nothing to do with the concurrent discussion on the mailing list while we were bickering over content on the talk page). 172 07:47, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lukashenko vs. Lukashenka

The man himself uses Lukashenko - see his official website at http://www.president.gov.by/eng/ . -- ChrisO 10:09, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This is part of that debate about the translation from Belarusian or Russian. Lukashenko is a pro-Russian language dictator as were the Soviets (Stalin had a specific policy of russifying B.S.S.R.). Most Belarusian nationalists and Belarusian language scholars use the transliteration that is more commonly recognized as being reflective of the different pronounciation of Belarusian phonemes from those of Russian that currently use a similar (but not identical) cyrillic character based alphabet. Even if you look at recent Belarusian passports they have the Belarusian to English transliterations, not the Russian-English transliterations. I would think that Lukashenka uses the Russian transliteration because he wants good press in Russia; many of his cronies are Russian. Many Russians see Belarusian as a language that is mostly perpetuated by peasants and countryfolk. A good example of this is the Hazeta Slonimskaja (Газета Слонімская) (the "Г" is pronounced more like an H than a G as in high Russian for example) which is published in the small city of Slonim was mostly in Belarusian, but more recently more and more articles are written in Russian such as news relating to Soviet military rememberances in Russian which is still the language used by the military [1] or the Smorgon "Regional Newspaper" «Рэгіянальная газета» [2] (see the local history stories [3] that is still only written in Belarusian in contrast with the majority of Belarusian newpapers that are published in Russian only such as the official government "Respublica" [4], though oddly the name is written in Belarusian cyrillic characters. Clearly Lukashenka wants his name translated from the Russian for a ideological reason. Should we side with him? Clearly both transliterations are proper. — Alex756 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 19:25, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Currently, there are two state languages in Belarus: Belarussian and Russian, which could mean that everybody has a choice of claiming Russian or Belarussian spelling to be the primary one for his/her name. In the 90's, the only official language was Belarussian, and passports translate from Belarussian to English and Russian, perhaps, as a relic from that time (although at that time, the traslation was not done the same way as now, but rather through what they claimed to be "International French" system: e.g., 'u' was spelled as 'ou', 'ks' as 'x').

The problem is aggravated by the fact that Belarussian language didn't settle itself yet, not to say about its transliteration. Google poll shows ka:ko=1:2.5, i.e., no absolute preference IMO. So let's pay some respect to a sovereign leader, regardless our dislikes/likes, and write him as he does (and 80% of Belarus population). Mikkalai 21:26, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Continuation moved to Talk:Belarusian language, since the issue is broader than "Lukashenko vs. Lukashenka" Mikkalai 00:17, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think we should use "Lukashenka" still. In my opinion, it's more appropriate in this case. He is a president of Belarus, not a prince of Muscovy. Btw, Google currently gives about 60,000 pages for "Lukashenko" and about 20,000 for "Lukashenka". So it's three times more for "Lukashenko", but I think the trend is to use more "Lukashenka", because previously it was 10:1. rydel 13:34, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree. Current BBC News articles have uniformly started using "Lukashenka" as well. --Delirium 05:03, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
In Belarus most of the population talk Russian, even if there is a Belarusian language (used mostly by nationalists), and Wikipedia must respect that. You may be able to notice that the BBC is subject to political manipulation.

The BBC is doing pretty fine compared to Belarus' government-run tv networks which are simply vehicles for government propaganda. It would be rather nice if Belarus one day introduced the Freedom of the Press (but this scenario is extremely unlikely). Valentinian (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The claim that the Belarusian language is only used by some weird nationalists is clearly and obviously wrong. Belarusian and Russian are both official languages. In pictures in loads of newsreports concerning the election, one can see clearly visible posters in the polling-stations with pictures of the candidates and their names written clearly in Belarusian. In fact, the only complaint from the Russian parliamentarians observing the elections was that all the official information in the polling-stations was exclusively in Belarussian and not Russian. ´(Barend 16:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC))
I thought last names ending in -ko were Eastern Ukrainian by origin, my mother's maiden name ends in -ko. Of course, in Belarusian there is no unstressed "o". -Iopq 14:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

--BarsMonster 17:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC) To make this more neutraul, i suggest:

  1. Do not call Lukashenko(a) as Luka or Batka. This is far not polite.
  2. Put both positive AND negative opinions to the article. For example, existing info about "low" economic growth should be expanded with comparison of unemployment rate, absense of 1998 finantical crisis and so on.
  3. There were no proved evidences that any elections were fake.

Any ideas are welcome.

[edit] Forged referendum

It should be mentioned, that the results of the referendum were known before referendum actually started. There was a lot of talk about it in Polish press Szopen 10:11, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Various people have come forward with proof for forgeries being ready few days before the election and were ingored (in Belarusia). Also, Lukashenko 'predicted' the outcome (75%). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 07:53, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bullshit. The results of this referendum were known half a year ago, when he first announced that "If people ask me to run for the office once more, how can I go against their will?". Whatever "proof" these people have, they cannot disprove that Luka is supported by the majority of Belarusian electorate, if even for the sole reason only: there is no serious alternative (I am not discussing why it is so). Mikkalai 08:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I am not sure whether we understand each other here. We are talking about actual documents with "results" for counties like Minsk etc, which were posted to Polish press by Belarussian opposition, not about some people's predictions. Szopen 12:26, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You are not sure correctly. Please re-read your first phrase. Now that you clarified, I say, why not, if you can provide exact references. (My personal opinion, though, after my last visit to Minsk this summer is that Belarusian Popular Front (BPF) started using of dirty and disgusting methods). Mikkalai 19:28, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Having only just found this page, I'll refrain from making edits yet, but would like to raise the issue of whether we have any reason to suggest that the Gallup poll would have been skewed/failed to survey voters in the countryside. I'm not blind to the difficulties of carrying out representative exit polls in Belarus - I'm only questioning the second sentence here:

"An exit poll survey performed by the Gallup Institute showed that only 48% of people voted "yes" on Lukashenko's referendum, with a margin of error of 1%. On the other hand, this poll is probably skewed, since the majority of Lukashenko supporters are in the countryside." Valerie, 17.06, 22 Oct 2004

An expected exit poll from the independent Gallup Organization/Baltic Surveys was in doubt after more than half of its 200 poll-takers were detained, opposition leaders said.
Do you really expect 100 persons can conduct a non-skewed all-country poll? Mikkalai 17:04, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Valerie, I understand your concern about the disbelief expressed towards the results supposedly from the respectable "Gallup Institute" (?). What worries me much more is that the information is added to wikipedia articles by random copying of pieces from various websites who copy it from somewhere else, without minimal verification, readily available in the very same internet. I am glad you had common sense to refrain from immediate editing (I hope because you wanted to check the facts yourself first). Welcome to wikipedia. Mikkalai 17:24, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Hello! Just a quick point which I hope to come back and clarify, but the Poles are not the best source for any FACTUAL information on Belarus and Lukashenko. Hostility there goes back years, probably even centuries. I am currently writing a political biography of Lukashenko, with an involved history of the country, and they are absolutely inseperable, and the Polish issue is a significant one. It is no accident that the first inter-ethnic dispute within Belarus was with the 'League of Belarusian Poles'. As I said, just a brief point, I'll try and qualify it better soon! Like most of you, I'm a busy person!

[edit] NPOV

I have just posted NPOV on the article.

I appreciate the work people did to write this articles, but it out of wiki standards at all. Sorry for being bold but I would suggest for authors to read "Wikipedia:Neutral point of view" first.

I will put some of my comments here, but there are so many of them that I will continue next time.

  • First paragraph (Starts with "Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko ..."). Comments like "his rule has been controversial:" and "Lukashenko's external and internal policies have led Belarus" although possible should be present in an article (I'm not sure right now) but definetilly not here. I think his name, data of birth, and terms of presidency is enough.
  • Early career section. The sentence " In the aftermath of the dissolution of the USSR, Lukashenko briefly returned to management of a state farm." is completelly our of tune. Last two paragpraph in this section does not sound good to me. But I can not suggest a way to improve them, partially because I'm not so much familiar what happens. About the fisrt elections I actually like how it's writen on his own page (Lukashenko's): "10 июля 1994 года после сложной борьбы с пятью другими кандидатами, представлявшими весь спектр политических сил страны, А.Г.Лукашенко был избран Президентом Республики Беларусь.", short and clear.
  • In first term section. Sentece "There were wide-spread rumours in Belarus that he was supported by Russian secret services." Rumours are not facts what encyclopedia should be based on.
  • Next paragraph (starts with "Although he won substantial popu ...") may be remove at all. It's about nothin. Suggest to add to the previous one that "He claimed during the campaign that he was facing a constant threat of assassination and that he had even been shot at. "
  • After this in the article turnes into an old newspaper. I think it should be focused on events which happed during his term with minimal comments. List can be 1) measure to get economy our of crisis; 2) suspencion by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund of leding money; 3) making tights with Russia; 4) parlament crisis of 1996; 5) referendum of 1996, new constitution; 6) closing down parlament and reelection; 7) first economical growth in 1996; 8) expelled ambassadors; 9) economy crisis of 1998, currency traiding suspension; 10) Probably idea about with Yogoslaviya worth mentioning; 11) There was in infomational war with Russian around 1997 (at the time when Sherem was under arrest). Menthioning of the weapon trade are inappropiate. Belarus didn't violate any international regulations. At the end should be general characterization of the term. Current last paragraph can a draft, but words like "liability" and "tense relations" must be excluded. Where are facts? His govenment and himself are critisized but "tense relations" are not defined. It may be tense for me but not for you, and may be not for him.

This unsigned comment was posted by User:Abyzov on 7 January 2006. Apparently the only contribution of this user My error, Abyzov also has around five edits on talk pages. --Valentinian 10:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Allow me a few comments to counter this statement. 1) What you are basically getting at is an accuracy dispute + comments about the quality of the article. I can't see any major NPOV problem in it. I *do* agree that the article needs (a lot of) cleanup, but that is beside the point. 2) The rumors are listed as such. 3) A large part of the "old newspaper", as you call it, is a list of transgressions against the constitution of Belarus and the rights of Belarusians committed by Lukashenka. You may not consider them relevant, but they no doubt are to the political prisoners in that country. I agree that the section could use a good cleanup though. 4) Given the nature of Lukashenka's dictatorial regime, the article is remarkably neutral. Remember that information about Belarus is sketchy since the country is deliberately shut off from its neighbours. A few points to illustrate:
All elections since 1996 have been rigged (no doubt, so will the upcoming election. The only real question is if Lukashenko will claim that he's won with 80 or 85% of the votes this time. The election on unification with Russia predicted to autumn 2006 will of course be rigged as well.) Freedom of association is not allowed in Belarus, neither is freedom of the press; opposition papers can not be "registered" allowing them continue printing, associations can not hold conventions (which they are required to do in order to be registred), students and old age pensioners are marched off to the voting booth and forced to vote several days before the official "election day", if they refuse to obey, the student in question will be expelled from university. Since the ballot boxes are not guarded by independent observers, this gives wonderful opportunities for the regime to remove ballots and stuff the box with ballots for Lukashenka. Telephone wires are still tapped by the KGB, internet providers are state-run and monitored. Evening news reports on Russian television broadcast in Belarus is replaced with news reports shot in a KGB studio. A few examples to illustrate the situation: Belarus TV claims that Lithuanian membership of the EU has resulted in an economic collapse (Lithuania's economy is booming); that the European Parliament expresses its admiration for Lukashenka (the opposite is true) etc. etc. No wonder that these stories are produced since the economy of Belarus has collapsed and most people are worse off than during the Soviet Union.
Given such a track-record, I think that the tone of an article about one of Europe's last dictators is pretty neutral, although the article itself still has much room for improvement. I'm replacing the NPOV with an "accuracy". I'll monitor this article to ensure that it doesn't suddenly become a propaganda piece of the Belarusian regime. For anyone wishing to read more about what is actually going on in Belarus, try e.g. http://www.silba.dk/ or many other newssites. Regards. --Valentinian 11:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Valentinian. The NPOV should be removed. As a traveller to Belarus and student of the country's history and politics, and given that my wife is from Belarus with family still living there, I can vouch that the information is accurate. The NPOV should be removed. Avraamrii 23:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
While I have not have any disputes with the article, I still would like to help fix the article up. Sure, we can remove the NPOV. On another issue, we should still keep the article at this title, but we can put a note by his name that says "In the Belarusian language, it is transliterated as Lukashenka" (I heard it as Lukashenka during the May 2005 Victory Parade in Minsk). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 00:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
That sounds fair, though I'm not knowledgable in the Belarusian language and don't know if the pronunciation of "Lukashenka" and "Lukashenko" sounds differently in that language. They wouldn't sound differently in Russian given that the last syllable is unaccented. I'm inclined to keep the "Lukashenko" spelling in the title primarily because that's been the common English transliteration and also I believe he's an ethnic Russian and doesn't speak Belarusian fluently. Avraamrii 19:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The Belarusians I've talked to pronounced it with a final "A", so it must be very similar to Russian. Since Lukashenko is the spelling normally used in English, I agree with Avraamrii that we need to follow that convention. All Belarusians I've spoken to said that he doesn't speak Belarusian. --Valentinian (talk) 21:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Now that is cleared up, the second thing I am suggest that we do is go to the website of the Russian President and see if we could get free photos of Lukashenko. I found two already, but I think there should be more crawling around there. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 21:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
MosNews.com and english.pravda.ru have free photos as well. Here are a few that might be useful. I'd download and insert them myself, but I'm still learning how to use Wikipedia.
http://www.mosnews.com/files/655/picture.jpg
http://www.mosnews.com/files/6158/lukashenko.jpg
(Any news, articles and photos, created by MosNews.Com staff, are public domain freeware since the moment of original publication, so please feel free to help yourself, if you find any item on this website (including this very copyright notice) worth a reprint elsewhere. Of course, you are supposed to make due reference both to MosNews.Com as source, and to the reprinted material’s author, wherever appropriate.)
http://english.pravda.ru/img/2004/10/lukashenkof.jpg
http://english.pravda.ru/img/2004/02/lukashenko2.jpg
http://images.pravda.ru/images/newsline/picture.jpg
http://english.pravda.ru/img/2004/09/lukashenko.jpg
(© 1999-2006. «PRAVDA.Ru». When reproducing our materials in whole or in part, hyperlink to PRAVDA.Ru should be made. The opinions and views of the authors do not always coincide with the point of view of PRAVDA.Ru's editors.)
Avraamrii 23:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the findings Avraamrii. I looked at the photos and most were taken by Reuters or the Associated Press, so we might not be able to use them. I sent an email to the Press Agency of the President of Belarus to see if I could use their photos under a free license or I can launch an email to the Belarusian Embassy asking for public domain photos of President Lukashenko. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 00:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gini index

He points out that Belarus has one of the lowest Gini coefficients in the world, indicating one of the world's most egalitarian distributions of income

Not true, it's not even in the world top 20. See: List of countries by income equality. bogdan 13:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Batka

Question, how common is this nickname used? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 14:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean how common is Luka referenced as batka? Avraamrii 03:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 03:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The title was created by Luka's spin machine, I believe when he first ran for president. You'll hear the term used frequently on the state run television stations (look here for a recent song performed on state TV called, "Listen to Batka" -- http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/2006/03/09/kult), but not elsewhere. If it is spoken in public by average folks, it's more likely used in a mocking manner, though you can find a few in the rural areas who parrot the propaganda from state TV.
Within the society, Lukashenko is generally not respected, partly due to his questionable education (he speaks with poor grammar) and also most see through the false claims of prosperity (the "Belarusian Miracle"). He will go on TV and say he's stopped inflation by decree, when anyone with a pair of eyes can see prices climbing almost daily because the government prints money as fast as the presses allow. The biggest factor in his remaining in power is widespread political apathy, even though most realize the elections are rigged. People just don't get energized. However, it works both ways; while the opposition demonstrations are relatively small, you see absolutely no demonstrations for Luka. The population also isn't informed about Luka's background and the scandals, such as the missing politicians and journalists. There's no non-state TV providing an alternative viewpoint and even the Russian stations are censored from saying anything bad about the Kremlin's ally. Most people don't know Luka put his wife under house arrest at their old village house not long after he assumed office and he's living with a mistress with whom he's fathered a child. There are rumors of another child with another woman as well. (Perhaps "Batka" is an appropriate term after all :-D) Luka's oldest son shot the national hockey coach in the stomach a couple of years ago, but again the public wasn't informed. I remember in 1995 during one of my trips when the military shot down the hot air balloon. Luka went on TV saying an old man and woman were piloting the balloon and were already dead from heart attacks so the helicopters had to shoot it down. The truth was that two young men were piloting the balloon which was blown off course during a race and were killed in cold blood. It was a political maneuver by Luka to curry favor with the hardliners in Russia by making him appear as a decisive, Napoleonic figure who stands up to the West. (that was during a time when he had hopes of entering Russian politics).
Hope that helps.Avraamrii 16:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it does, a lot. What I done is I made Batka into a redirect to here, since that is a nickname used by the Government, as you pointed out. I do see your viewpoint about the state TV because when I see TVR (albiet on an Internet Stream), Luka was treated like a diety (or like Lenin). I remember the hockey coach situation, and also about the hot-air ballon situation (since it were Americans that were shot down by the Belarusian Air Force or Army). Thanks again. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 16:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent revisions by User 172

As I told 172 on my talk page, it'd be helpful if he discussed and defended the major deletions and modification in the discussion board before doing so. The changes appear unsupported, in particular the deletions. I just realized he/she was involved with earlier arguments over this article. Until a more conciliatory approach is adopted by our friend, I'll continue watching his edits and reverting what appears to be partisan and unsupported. Avraamrii 01:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You will not be reverting anything without being reverted back. Your warring attitude will not be tolerated in wikipedia. Please state your objections point by point, not it one big revert. mikka (t) 02:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring by Avraamrii

Avraamrii is currently deleting information referencing The Christian Science Monitor, a very respected Western publication, which in turn is citing a World Bank Report, without reference to an alternative source justifying the removal of the content. At the same time, this user is restoring unreferenced commentary that I have correctly removed.

The insinuations of Avraamrii that I have a partisan agenda are false, ad hominem, and against Wikipedia policy (see Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility). I dislike Lukashenko. Nevertheless, I will work to uphold the Wikipedia policy of neutrality no matter how unpopular the subject of the article. (On that note, if one takes a look at my user history, he/she will see that I am also working to weed out bias against Republican Party politicans linked to Jack Abramoff, although I happen to be a member of the Democratic Party.) I hope that anti-Lukashenko activists here will work toward including factual, well-referenced material in this article, and not fail to let their passions get in the way of following Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. 172 | Talk 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I reiterate, you made more changes than this and anyone can see that by doing a diff. Nevertheless, I reverted your edits BUT I added your comments about the Gallup poll. Now, if you're going to insist those are the only change you've made, then I guess you should be fine with what I've done. I would also add that the Gallup.com site shows no such poll. The Baltic Gallup organization has been harassed and booted from the country, so I'm not sure how a foreign NGO was allowed to carry out such a poll. Other internal polls over the years have shown Lukashenko's support at no more than 35-40% of the population. Someone who's genuinely popular as he claims wouldn't need to be be jailing, kidnapping, and murdering opposition politicians nor rigging elections nor kicking out election monitors nor locking the doors and counting votes behind closed doors.
If you want to make further edits, please discuss them here rather than perform drive-bys. Thank you. Avraamrii 02:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Your observations above are neither here nor there. You have been removing referenced material. You have not been providing references to the unreferenced material that you have been restoring. Please do not politicize this discussion. Please see WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. 172 | Talk 02:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GDP/Salaries

Corrected earlier edit to accurately reflect the article's contents -- http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060317/wl_csm/ofree_1

Previous edit read: A 2005 World Bank report judged that "economic growth in Belarus has been genuine and robust," and the benefits have been widely shared among the population. Under Lukashenko, official unemployment stands at less than 2 percent, poverty has fallen, and the average monthly income is higher than in most Soviet republics, including Ukraine and Russia.

The article actually reads: A 2005 World Bank report judged that "economic growth in Belarus has been genuine and robust," and the benefits have been widely shared among the population. Official unemployment stands at less than 2 percent, poverty has fallen, and the average monthly income is around $200 - better than in many former USSR republics, including Ukraine.

I'm not sure who could argue that salaries are higher in Belarus than in Russia. According to an RIA Novosti business report last year (http://en.rian.ru/business/20050801/41069723.html), the average monthly salary in Russia was just over $300, while in Belarus it was $221. Add on top of that the fact that the Russian rouble is like hard currency in Belarus.

GDP - per capita in Russia: $10,700 (2005 est.) http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html

GDP - per capita in Belarus: $7,600 (2005 est.) http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bo.html

Avraamrii 03:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lavada

Avraami, you added the link to the main page levada.ru. You must provide the link to the page that speaks about the exit poll. mikka (t) 04:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The main page of Charter '97 quoted Levada for the numbers 40%+ to Lukashenko and 30%+ to Milinkievic: http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/ (accessed on 20 March one hour ago). No direct link was available to the actual figures, and the site has already been shut down again. Valentinian (talk) 13:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The site is online again. Valentinian (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Run-on sentence in intro paragraph?

"Since assuming office, his actions have been described by detractors as authoritarian, though his supporters claim that his policies have spared Belarus the worst effects of post-Soviet capitalism, while his opponents, at home and abroad, accuse him of being dictatorial." One of those detractors/opponents clauses can be merged with the other/deleted. Agree? 65.33.156.96 13:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statement from Gallup

http://www.charter97.org/eng/news/2006/03/20/gallup

Gallup/Baltic Surveys announces impossibility of independent and reliable exit polls under present conditions in Belarus 11:53, 20/03/2006

Independent and reliable exit polls would be impossible in Belarus, said Vilnius-based Baltijos Tyrimai (Baltic Surveys)/The Gallup Organization in a press statement. The group noted that owing to Belarusian authorities` measures, it had decided not to poll exiting voters in this presidential election in the country. Baltijos Tyrimai coordinated such polls during Belarus` parliamentary elections and referendum in 2004.

Director General Rasa Alisauskiene said that when the exit poll project was discussed a few months ago, it became clear that Belarus` security agencies were going to prevent any independent exit polls, harassing interviewers and coordinators, spreading slander about Baltijos Tyrimai/The Gallup Organization, and "trying to create an atmosphere of fear."

"Given the present situation in Belarus, it would be impossible to conduct an independent and reliable poll of voters, which would be free of pressure from authorities," Ms. Alisauskiene said. She noted that two Belarusian government-controlled pollsters, EcooM and the Belarusian Committee of Youth Organizations, announced the results of their exit polls before noon, although the polling stations closed at 8 p.m. "One of those pollsters says that it polled 6,638 voters at 2,800 polling stations, that is less than three voters per station," Ms. Alisauskiene said. This is evidence that those who had been officially allowed to poll exiting voters "did not have the slightest idea of how to conduct such polls," she added.

[edit] "70 deputies of the 110-member Belarusian parliament"

"In the summer of 1996, 70 deputies of the 110-member Belarusian parliament signed a petition to impeach Lukashenko on charges of violating the Constitution."

Is that true? Belarus still had a Supreme Soviet with 260 deputies in summer 1996. Parliament was established after November 1996 referendum. (check Country Studies, Government Organization of Belarus, 1995), also rferl says In 1996, Lukashenka held another referendum on a rewritten constitution ... [Supreme Council] was replaced by a bicameral legislature under the new constitution. Second referendum was in November 1996. --83.100.33.249 03:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Supreme Soviet is a legislature, i.e., a synonym for "parliament" and the terms are used interchangeably even with respect to late Soviet Union. The current Belarusian parliament is not called "parliament" either: it is "National Assembly". mikka (t) 04:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Still doesn't make sense. You claim his own "handpicked 110-member pocket parliament" (which didn't exist summer 1996) chose to impeach him? Why would they do that? Please give source to this claim. --81.197.44.33 16:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense to you because you have problems with comparing dates: The "handpicked parliament" was created after new constitution, in the end of 1996. The impeachment petition was written in summer. mikka (t) 18:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

An annon placed an NPOV tag on the article. While he must be the one to provide the reasoning, but given the recent revert issues, miscommunications, blocks and the 2006 elections, I support the placement of the NPOV tag on the article so we can try and figure out what is going on. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't object this tag sitting for a while, but unless the discussion starts, it will be removed. You cannot run around and slap npov tags just for fun. Every political article is disliked by one man or another. mikka (t) 20:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright. I personally believe the only way things will probably work on this article is to perhap start from scratch, begining with the lead section. I think we should have a short lead, so it can be breif, but to the point. Though, should the Polish name of Lukashenko be used or not? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
From what I read, the possible NPOV could be addressed through adding some citations. They are almost non-existent, appearing as the author of the article holds the NPOV position. ZincOrbie 23:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)




[edit] What?

"Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko (Lukashenka) the nigga with the moustache(Belarusian: Алякса́ндар Рыго́равіч Лукашэ́нка, Russian: Александр Григорьевич Лукашенко) (born August 30, 1954) has been the President of Belarus since 1994. "

^^^ Nigga with the moustache"?!?!?! I thought he was white,lolDzoni 01:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to wiki-world, full of trolls of vandals. You may laugh for a while. But after some time just click the "Page history" link and revert the idiot. mikka (t) 01:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It was vandalized since it is on the main page; most main page linked articles suffer from a few days worth of vandals, then goes back to quietness. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

WHy is the article named Lukashenko anyway? The guy is clearly called Lukashenka. Is this just because westerners (myself included) expect every name with -a to be female? If this is the only reason, might I suggest a rename to his actual name? Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 09:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The BBC, US press, US State Department, but most importantly, the official website of Batka ,http://www.president.gov.by/eng/president/profile/, uses Lukashenko. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 09:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I should have known he would use his Russianised name! :-) The Minister of War (Peace) 09:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Aaaah you gotta love nice coloured sites like this: "Lukashenko is notable for his in-depth understanding of events".
By the way, did you see that European map that site uses in the upper right corner? It looks like the WWI map of Europe with Greater Germany and Austria-Hungary! :-) The Minister of War (Peace) 09:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"Lukashenko" is the real name.

[edit] corruption accusations passage

It currently stands as

In late 1993, he accused 70 senior government officials, including Stanislav Shushkevich, the speaker of the parliament and the acting president, of corruption including stealing state funds for personal purposes. Lukashenko's accusations forced a vote of confidence which Shushkevich lost. Later the accusations against Shushkevich proved to be without merit.

Whereas the sources claim (relevant parts follow):

ukrweekly:

When Mr. Shushkevich was removed in January 1994 as a result of trumped-up corruption charges[...]

osce-belarus report:

Ultimately, Shushkevich was ousted as head of state following a parliament vote of no confidence in late January 1994, on charges of failing to tackle government corruption that were brought by Lukashenko, then head of the parliament’s anti-corruption commission. A vote aimed at Kebich was defeated. The vague nature of the charges against Shushkevich – he was accused of ‘personal immodesty’ – suggested that they were simply a pretext for removing him. Shushkevich had become increasingly unpopular among the conservative parliamentary majority.

The first one is obviously and overtly biased and the relevant part basically is little more than a POV claim that the charges were "trumped up". Second one is much more interesting, but it claims that Shushkevich was accused of failing to tackle corruption. So, was he accused of failing to tackle corruption or being corrupt himself or both? This is pretty confusing. I'll attempt a rewrite to at least reflect more accurately what the sources say.--Poison sf 13:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

He was accused of both things. Valentinian (talk) 15:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation into Hebrew

Hi all,

I started translating this much-debated article for the Hebrew Wikipedia. Because it is so controversial i want to simply avoid the debated points (for example, is he or is he not a d***tator) for a while and focus on the undisputed facts.

Because of all the arguments, however, this article suffers from some roughness and contradictions within itself and its Russian and Belarusian counterparts (i can read Russian and Belarusian).

So, first question:

What exactly Lukashenko did in his military service? Was it The Soviet Army, KGB or both? At what times? And what's with the Border Guards? Is it Пограничные Войска? Are they a separate entity or are they a part of KGB of the Soviet Army?

Also - what eaxctly did he do there? Belarusian version says: быў інструктарам палітычнага аддзелу ваеннае часткі. So, can i say that he was a politruk? If yes - Was it the main thing he had done there or did he also catch some spies?

Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni 07:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Border Guards is a not best translation of Пограничные Войска. It is not a part of KGB in any case. Instructor of political department does not catch any spies. I suppose he could be reffered as politruk, but I am not sure.--Nixer 14:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

--88.110.212.128 19:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC) The best translation is Frontier troops. And the term Politruk was out of use at the time. Zampolit was the term used throughout the Soviet forces. The Frontier troops came under the command of the KGB, but would not have been 'catching spies'. Though they would have arrested (or shot) anyone making border violations. (Some of whom may or may not have been spies!) Lukashenko did 2 seperate sessions in the Armed forces once in the KGB frontier Troops and once in the Soviet Army. Here's a brief military biography of Lukashenko from my forthcoming book on Belarus: "After graduation Lukashenko served two years in the Soviet frontier troops of the KGB. The frontier troops were particularly respected and trusted soldiers, working as they did right on the borders of the USSR. Lukashenko served as a ‘zampolit’ (political instructor) and held the rank of lieutenant. The zampolit was responsible for the morale of the unit, and also for the continued education of the troops, particularly in ideological areas. Lukashenko served two years in this role, at a time of great advancement and prosperity in Belarus. Working in this role, Lukashenko held Pyotr Masherov in high regard, and would later describe him as one of his “heroes (2)”. Lukashenko served two years in this position, before being asked to work for the Komsomol (Young Communists league) where he held various posts, culminating in his running of a chapter in Mogilev for a year. During this period Lukashenko also worked for several Communist Party bodies including the all union society ‘Znanie’ (knowledge), which he would continue to be actively involved in until the dissolution of the Soviet Union. It is interesting to note that the only political party Lukashenko has ever been a member of is the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Following its suspension in 1991, Lukashenko did not attempt to ‘change his colours’ or claim allegiance to any newly emerging party. Lukashenko went back to the military in 1980 serving until 1982 in the Soviet Army." (c) Belaruski

[edit] Redline's edits

The user Redline invited me to the discussion page for constructive criticism of his last edits. So, Redline: -Why do you not want it mentioned that Shushkevich functioned as acting president? -Why do you not want the topic of the 1996 referendum to be in the article? -Why is it so important to emphasise the reduction of numbers of protesters, without mentioning the number of people arrested during this same period? -Why put so much weight on the opinions of one single country (Russia), the only country in the world that did not find fault with the recent elections, as opposed to the opinions of a well-respected international organisation (OSCE) of which Belarus itself is a member? NPOV does not mean giving equal weight to two different opinions when one opinion is held by 190 countries, and the other opinion is held by 1 country. (Barend 14:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

  • From September 1991 till January 26 1994 Stanislav Shushkevich was a head of Supreme Soviet (Belarussian parliament), the position of president was first introduced in Constitution of Belarus in 1994 and the first presidental elections was held the same year ([5]). So i propose to exclude the "acting as president" part.
  • I don't oject 96 referendum being in the article. From current version one can understand that referendum was called solely by Lukashenko, that its goal was to extend the term to 7 years and give the president more power and that these questions successfully passed. Actually that referendum was a measure to resolve the confrontation between the President and group of deputats in the Parliament. Both parties offered questions for that referendum (President offered 4 questions and Deputats 3 questions) As the result two questions were supported - about the Independence Day and about the new edition of Constitution offered by Presidend wich gave him more power. No seven year term, just the four-year five-year term wich start counting from the moment of new constitution approval (1996) If you can read russian - here is the official results with the percent of supporters shown for each question [6]. So i propose to include the following about the 1996 referendum: "Shortly after that a referendum was held on November 24, 1996, where 4 questions offered by Lukashenko and 3 questions offered by Parlient were raised. On November 25, it was announced that 70.5% of voters, on an 84% turnout, had approved the new version of constitution wich give more power to the President. "
  • I think that it is important to mention that there were no hard police actions taken to the demonstrants (i'm talking about camp on the October square 19-24 March) such as actively discussed in the press before elections inprisoning for 15 yeasrs as terrorists and so on, demonstrants were allowed to stay at the square for five days and despite that only 10 000 of people came first night redusing to 200 last night out of 2 000 000 Minsk (here is some pics taken on Wednesday). Also you have to take into consideration that Minsk is traditionaly more loyal to the opposition than other parts of the country (see results of 2001 elections by district and results of 2006 elections by district) On my opinion this is the evidence that opposition is not popular among belarussians. Milinkevich often says about some "atmosphere of fear" to make excuses of low number of his supporters. For example I visited the camp on the square several times a day every day and wasn't put to the jail or even talked to by any policeman. Of course dosens of people were arested for 10-15 days for partisipation in the demonstration. But when this happens for example in USA nobody mentions "the atmosphere of fear" (for example March 21 2004 several hundred people were arrested in different cities during protests against Iraq war, September 26 2005 the mother of american soldier killed in Iraq Cindy Sheehan that was protesting against Bush administration was arrested. She and three more women were arrested again on March 7 2006 during manifestation and so on, look in the Protests against the Iraq War for more). So i propose to return the part about number of protestants. Insert something about March 25 demonstration or Kozulin arest if you want.
  • Two major organisations were observing the elections - OSCE and CIS, so both opinions has to be represented in the section about elections. Russia represents not only its own opinion but also the opinion of CIS, and Belarus is a member of that organisation as well as member of OSCE. And it is in no way 190 vs 1. 55 countries are members of OSCE. And 11 members of CIS (except Georgia perhaps) plus India, China and some other countries that recognized the elections. So i propose ro return to my version wich gives equal attention to both opinions anstead of current version showing 10 words for CIS observers part and 70 for OSCE
--Redline 20:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Formating of your first post gets corrupted, correct please--Redline 20:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Interesting information about the referendum, thanks. Since there's so much confusion about these events, I suggest to mention all such details in the article. --Poison sf 20:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I returned parts as proposed in my earlier post and added some more info about elections\opposition. Could someone please check the style of that part as i'm not a native english-speaker and not sure about the use of some words. I'll probably add some info on referendum later --Redline 23:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect the OSCE is far from an independent body. For example why would any European organisation have the USA as a member? And do US elections fall within OSCE guidelines for free and fair? No they do not, the US Presidential election system fails OSCE standards but are not criticised. It is fair to say that the OSCE has as much of an agenda as Lukashenko does.

[edit] On monthly income

To clarify the situation with the part of the article that states that "average monthly income is higher than in many other former Soviet republics, including Ukraine" i tried to find some reports/researches of international organisations on this topic, but unfortunately i wasn't able to find any current information (not older then 2-3 years). So I propose to use the Ministry of Statistics data of both countries.

For Belarus I found the document (in Russian) which states that average wage of workers was 558513 bel. roubles in March and 561512 in April and for office workers figures are 576643 in March and 577211 in April. Using the Br/USD exchange rate 2150 (National Bank of Belarus) we receive following figures: $259,7 and $261,1 for workers and $268,2 and $268,4 for office workers.

For Ukraine i found data (in English) for Jan-Feb and estimate for Jan-March, we can take the estimate (918,29 hryvnia) as the largest of two. Using the UAH/USD exchange rate 5.05 (National Bank of Ukraine) we receive $181,8

To compare the money income growth rate of CIS countries (except Ukraine as it uses different methodology) you can refere to the CISStat report for 2005 here and for Q1 2006 here

I'd put a large grain of salt into the "statistics" the Bank of Belarus or any Belarusian agency puts forth. Comparing the exchange rates of an inconvertible currency like the Belarusian rouble versus the semi-convertible Russian rouble or Ukrainian hryvnia is comparing apples to bananas. The Bel. rouble is fixed at a rate which doesn't adjust to the high inflation in the economy. These means that salaries (and, in conjuction, prices) rise but since the dollar exchange rate doesn't move, it can give the appearance that the average worker's wage has increased in dollar value. For example, the Friday, June 23rd closing rate was 2,143 Bel. roubles per dollar. But say that the current high inflation in Belarus drives up wages from 385,740 roubles ($180 according to the official exchange rate) to 400,000 roubles next month, which would give the appearance that the worker has seen his monthly wage rise to $186. But it didn't. Why? Because the currency isn't convertible. The worker can't walk into a bank or exchange kiosk and get the dollar or hard currency equivalent. They'll tell him no hard currency is available. I've experienced this every time during my travels in Belarus.
The Russian rouble and hryvnia are treated like hard currency in Belarus, which tells you much about the relative health of Belarusian finances compared to its neighbors. Avraamrii 06:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Avraamrii, it looks like your impressions about Belarus re somewhat outdated. Everything described in your post definitely was the case in late 90-s - early 2000-s but siuation has changed at least 2-3 years ago.
Statistical data in Belarus is not largely faked. Statistics from major international organisations be it WorldBank, UN, CIA agrees with statistics found on official belstat website. There may be some minor differences 1% here or there, but numbers are not doubled in bel.stats. For example GDP growth according to UN report (first row) vs. the same according to belstat (second row) in 2000-2005:
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005
5.8, 4.7, 5.0, 7.0, 11.0, 8.5 
5.8, 4.7, 5.0, 7.0, 11.4, 9.2
not a huge difference isn't it? The same applies for inflation:
2000   2001  2002  2003  2004  2005
168.9, 61.4, 42.8, 28.5, 18.3, 12.0 
107.5, 46.1, 34.8, 25.4, 14.4, 8.0
In fact, in 2006 inflation in Belarus is less then in Russia or Ukraine ([7])
The same with bel. rouble - dollar equivalent of salary rises not because some manipulations with exchange rate but because: 1) salary does rise in roubles; plus 2) dollar does weakens all over the world. There are no restrictions on buying/selling dollars, euro and so on in Belarus (in fact you should show them your passport when buying more than ~$27000) and exchange rates set by banks represent real situation on the market. Black market of currency existed in late 90-s due to differences between real and official exchange rates had dissapeared long time ago exactly because of this. I assure you that I can go to bank right now and buy $2000 without any problem. Of course some kiosks may not have such summ's right away, but in any bank branch it is not a problem. For example just 1.5 month ago i wanted to buy one expensive thing off ebay - it took me 30 minutes to grab my roubles, go to my nearest bank and put them on my dollar Visa cart. So I assume your info is outdated. --Redline 11:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
According to the UN chart, the inflation of Belarus is projected to be the same as Russia for 2005 at 10.5%. If you look at the chart since 1996, it shows inflation in Belarus way ahead of that in Russia every single year. My overall point in challenging statistics and numbers regarding a supposed "economic miracle" is that they are extremely misleading. They would give the impression that life is better in country A than in country B, when in fact people are fleeing country A to country B whenever they get the chance. The Belarusian economy is worse off and less dynamic than every one of its neighbors and that has been the situation the entire time under Lukashenko. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and Russians are not flocking to Belarus for jobs and money -- it's the other way around. Russia is subsidizing Belarus with cheap gas and loans and keeping the Luka government from sinking. On the other hand, Belarus isn't subsidizing the Russian or anyone's economy. Nobody disputes that the current positive cash flow into the Belarusian government in the last few years is the direct result of Belarus reselling cheap Russian gas at world market prices. And it looks like this might be changing soon as Russia has indicated it's not pleased with continuing to subsidize the Belarusian economy. The impression being made that the current fortunate situation in high oil prices around the world is the direct result of Lukashenko's economic management is absurd, especially since one can see clearly that most of his 12-year rule has been of dire economic poverty with high inflation and little to no free market mechanisms.
I've not been to Belarus in the last two years, so I can't provide anecdotal evidence about the black marketers in currency as of today. I do maintain regular contacts with friends, in-laws, and former associates in Belarus and the country remains an economic basket case with young people leaving to find jobs abroad. I currently have Belarusian guests in my home and I discussed the currency exchange situation. They concur with you that, at least in Minsk, the black marketers hanging out around the kiosks have dwindled considerably. However, they are still around outside of the large cities. This is in large part due to the ever-growing police presence everywhere which clamps down on that kind of activity. There's also a problem with counterfeiting so people have become less trustful of non-bank exchange outlets.
All the best. - Avraamrii 00:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, my point is that although economy of Belarus experienced some hard times in late 90-s since then situation is constantly improving. If you look at that UN report for 2005 data you'll see that on inflation Belarus performed comparable or better than 7 CIS countries of 12 including oil/gas-exporters - Russia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaidjan. Same with GDP growth - comparable or better then 9 of 12 CIS countries. Forecast for 2006 gives us 7-th of 12 for inflation and 4-th place of 12 for GDP growth. So i clame that currently Belarus performs better then its CIS neighbours - Russia and Ukraine and worse then EU neighbours - Latvia, Lithuania and Poland (with still better GDP growth however). Nobody can deny that this success is partly based on favorably economic factors - low gas prices (hovewer Belarus doesn't re-export gas and oil, it refines oil to gasoline and sell it) and access to vast Russian market. But hey - we are part of Union of Russia and Belarus (wich is exactly the consequence of Lukashenko's political course) And it is mutually beneficial union - we have lower prices for energy, Russia has lower than european prices for oil/gas transit, it has some important military installations on our territory in long-term lease (including elements of strategic forces - ICBM early warning radar, communication station for subs and so on.), we have united anti-aircraft forces, wich give additional 400 km of friendly territory before Moscow and so on. Of course we didn't subsidize Russia, but many people in Russia think that geopolitical benefits is worth lover-than-european gas price for Belarus (considering that our consumption is not very big)
Next. According to CIA factbook Belarus has positive migration ratio (more people entering country than leaving) +2.3 migrant per 1000 population. 4 out of 5 our neighbours have negative migration - more people leaving then entering (just Russia has +1.03). Just 2 explanations of this phenomenon come to my mind: either people enjoy living in "dire economic poverty" with "economy worse off and less dynamic than every one of its neighbors" or Lukashenko rejime has installed watch-towers across the borders of Belarus with large mashine-guns not leting anybody out :)
If you have such opportunity - come to Belarus to see its current situation with your own eyes, because everybody has its own biased opinion and is trying to push it (not excluding myself :) ) The anti-Lucashenko opinions and facts was fully presented in this article, and i tried to mention some pro-Lukashenko opinions and facts to show that world is not black-and -white with Belarus being totally on black side. Definitely we have problems with human rights, economic factors (including dependence on cheap gas) and so on. But at the same time we have successes, some of them is the direct result of Lucashenko. So I wouldnt put him as a devil-on-earth as often western press does. Kind regards Redline 13:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifications on reports/statistics

Life Expentancy in Belarus

This statement removed since 1) it provides no cited evidence and 2) it falsely gives the impression that life expentancy is higher in Belarus than neighboring countries:

"This stands in stark contrast to, for instance, the devastating early effects of economic transformation in neighboring Russia, where life expectancy has dropped dramatically since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991."

The reality is that there's no statistical difference between the life expectancies of Belarus and Russia, or Ukraine for that matter. In fact, the life expectancy is higher today in Ukraine and rising faster than in Belarus. The pattern, in fact, shows that the neighboring market economies are improving their social conditions faster than Belarus.


http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbsum.html

Figures for 2005, 2000, and 1998 respectively:

Russia: 67.1, 67.2, 65.0

Belarus: 68.7, 68.0, 68.3

Ukraine: 69.7, 66.0, 65.8


2001 figures:

Russia: 67.19 years (http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.asp?whichpage=9&pagesize=20&sort=Country)

Belarus: 68.00 years (http://www.os-connect.com/pop/p1.htm)


World Bank Report

I've added material from the World Bank reference in the intro so as to provide context of the report. The report is overall negative on Belarusian economic performance but the reference gives the impression that it's the opposite.


EcooM and the Belarusian Committee of Youth Organizations

I've noted that these are government organizations, which raises doubt about the veracity of their exit polling.

- Avraamrii 06:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about paraphrasing the World Bank Report

Currently, the article claims that the World Bank report says Belarus has a higher poverty rate than Russia. Please point to the section in the World Bank report that says that.

What does "poverty rate" mean? That people are becoming poor faster in Belarus than in Russia? It is my impression that there is less destitution in Belarus than in Russia, something almost all Belarusians will agree on. So the "poverty level" is lower in Belarus. What I did get from the report is that: "Poverty has declined over time and is low compared to other transition countries," and "The gains in poverty reduction are shallow and fragile." Fragile meaning vulnerable because wages might be rising faster than economic growth will allow. That is what the report says, and I suggest editing the article to reflect its assesment. --Rako

The economy section has links showing the most recent available poverty rates in Belarus are substantially higher than in Russia. The links can probably be moved up to the intro, but then the intro becomes long-winded again. The poverty rate is the percentage of population living below an income level deemed below poverty, as set by the government. The CIA government reports rely upon self-reported numbers from foreign governments, so the numbers come from Belarusian official sources. The "poverty reduction" is fragile because of low productivity, lack of a thriving private sector, heavy-handed government regulation and intervention in fixing prices and wages, non-diversified products for export, heavy reliance upon cheap energy from Russia, etc. The lack of competitiveness in Belarusian products can't be underemphasized; factory items are produced in large quantity on state credit and are included in statistics that might indicate large growth in industry, but in reality the goods are piling up in warehouses without buyers. In the past, they were able to exchange these goods with Russian gas companies in barter agreements, but the Russian side has been rejecting this practice and demanding cash payments. Recently, they've stopped allowing Belarusian roubles as payments. This all illustrates a Belarusian economic model that's fragile and not sound for the long-term without significant market reforms.
The 2005 GDP per capita was $6,900 in Belarus versus $11,100 in Russia. Workers in Belarus seek jobs in Russia, not vice versa. I know of very few in Belarus who would assert Belarus has a wealthier population than in Russia, except those who readily believe state run tv propaganda pieces. I've been a frequent traveller to Belarus since 1995, have done business there, and maintain close relations with Belarusian family, friends, and business contacts. All the best -- Avraamrii 03:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV

"Despite the poverty of evidence against him, his detractors in the west still insist on using what little they have to make exaggerated claims against him" ... "Lukashenko has been attacked by the U.S. as "Europe's last dictator" and leaders of one of the world's "outposts of tyranny," citing poorly substantiated allegations of restrictions" ... there is no conceivable way in which this is NPOV. It reads like a propaganda piece for Lukashenko. I'm no fan of the US (though that shouldn't really come in to it), but this is utterly ridiculous. Wikipedia is not here to make judgements on the merits of the evidence, but simply to represent the controversy as it stands. I'm tagging this article as POV and will keep it as such until the relevant changes have been made. JF Mephisto 19:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The article has been tagged with the POV notice from time to time. However, I can state that the Secretary of State, Ms. Rice, has called Belarus one of the "outposts of tyranny," but it was the BBC who decided to label President Lukashenko as "Europe's last dictator." ([8]). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
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