Talk:Aleister Crowley/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Crowley documentary uploaded to youtube 2 Removed Pop Culture References to New Article 3 Removed the following line: 4 Selected 5 Moved this passage from the article 6 Interesting stuff here 7 Okay, writing NPOV about Crowley is extraordinarily hard 8 random sidenote 9 Good ol' Fubar 10 Removed from the page 11 Writing NPOV about Crowley is hard. 12 Whats the story with the V-Sign? 13 Removed section 14 Removals 15 There should be some criticism of Crowley 16 Link suggestions 16.1 Outward links 16.2 Inward links 17 "Fay ce que vouldras" 18 POV 19 To do (not necesarily by me) 20 Satanism? 21 Sentence Ambiguity 22 Skepticism 23 Moonchild 24 Education 25 Music References 26 A Request for uploading Diary Of A Drug Fiend 27 Daughter 28 Crowley: A Hyper-Calvinest?!

[edit] Crowley documentary uploaded to youtube

heres the link, its in 3 parts

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E93_N1dXYCg

i'm no wikipedian, so um yeah . . . can someone else add it if you think its worth it?

[edit] Removed Pop Culture References to New Article

Sorry, I just thought I would be bold and fix what I saw as people adding any minor, random reference to Crowley to the Crowley page -- in a few cases in the music section, I suspect the musicians themselves may have done this. Since there was no organization, no vetting, no weighting by relative importance, I felt the excessive length of the section that became the Crowley in Popular Culture article was choking the usefulness of the main Crowley article.The Dogandpony 17:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed the following line:

Removed the following line: Crowley died without leaving a clear line of succession for Thelema and the OTO. See Kenneth Grant

1. There is no "line of succession" for Thelema, which is a religion/philosophy.
2. Crowley left a very clear line of succession for OTO: Karl Germer. On March 14, 1942, Crowley wrote to Germer: "I shall appoint you my successor as O.H.O." Seems pretty clear to me. Crowley also gave Grady McMurtry letters that make it clear that he was next in line if something should happen to Germer (who did not appoint an "heir"). So, the line was clear: Germer, with a backup plan in case of an emergency.

Ashami 06:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Selected

Selected on Template:March 20 selected anniversaries (may be in HTML comment)

[edit] Moved this passage from the article

Moved this passage from the article --

The claims made about him by the press range from the certain (that he supported the Germans in World War I), to the claim that he was an avowed atheist when he was obviously agnostic, to the unproven (that he openly kept mistresses), to the apparently ridiculous (that he sacrificed hundreds of babies in black magic rituals).

Until the end, every part of that sentence looks wrong. For example, nothing about Crowley seems obvious. Except for the fact that he had extra-marital sex. Dan 07:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting stuff here

Interesting stuff here. A typical Wikipedia editing question: it seems to me that the one sentence regarding Crowley's death (listed under "Miscellany" in the article) should be part of the "Biography" section instead. His condition at the time of death seems like an interesting and important part of his life story. However the transition from the current last paragraph in that article to this one sentence on the end of his life seems like it would be rather abrupt. Any suggestions on joining these?

Question for any experts watching: this article (currently) contains the Crowley quote "Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts." Just before this quote the article relates it to Crowley's previously mentioned book of fiction, "Moonchild," but fails to actually define the term "moonchild." Does it perhaps have something to do with Babalon Working? --Jarsyl 07:12, 2004 Sep 16 (UTC)

[edit] Okay, writing NPOV about Crowley is extraordinarily hard

Okay, writing NPOV about Crowley is extraordinarily hard. I have read and been interested in Crowley's ideas on and off for some years, though I am not a Thelemite or occult practitioner (or any other sort of religionist for that matter). I have left out of this extensive rewrite a lot of information about his life because I'm not sure I know how to write it neutrally. On the one hand he seems to have been a very interesting person with a very interesting story to tell; on the other hand he seems to have frequently been a scoundrel -- if not a borderline sociopath who for all his ethical philosophy did not know how to treat others very well.

It seems to me that the three Non-Neutral Points of View that writing on Crowley risks falling into are as follows. I'm not going to be very sympathetic to any of them:

• The Tabloid-Christian view, as espoused by the press during Crowley's career in Britain and by certain fundamentalists since then: "Crowley was a Satanist who sacrificed babies and did perverted things with goats!"
• The Gushing-OTO-Cultist view, as espoused by some Thelemites today: "Crowley was a Saint and a Prophet of the New Aeon! See, it says here in Liber Q vel Schnipp-Schnapp that ...."
• The Beyond-Skeptic-to-Cynic view, as espoused by far too many of my fellow atheists: "Crowley was nothing but a crazy con-man who wasted all his money publishing crazy poetry and seducing crazy women."

Thank you, and have a nice fishie. --FOo

[edit] random sidenote

One more random sidenote: "Aiwas" or "Aivas" is Etruscan for the Greek name "Ajax", the name of two of the heroes of the Trojan War. --FOo

[edit] Good ol' Fubar

Fubar, I like most of what you've done on this page, but I see a problem with the line, "Yet like Leary's, Crowley's method had many evident failings". I suggest citing someone's critique of his method instead, or describing what you call its evident failings without comment. (The evident doesn't need comment, after all.) As you say, writing NPOV about Crowley presents difficulties. I think one of these modifications would improve the situation. Oh, and kudos on Liber Schnipp-Schnapp. ^_^

Looks better. However, I think it may contradict the facts, at least in regard to Leary. I feel confident I could give some objective evidence for some of his hypotheses (notice the stress on the word 'some'.) We can say, for example, that his experiments produced zero suicides, zero psychoses, zero bad trips. We can say that researchers found a certain percentage of former prison volunteers still out of jail x years after an experiment in rehabilitation, and compare these numbers with national statistics. In other words, I think we could and would have tested some of Dr. Leary's psychological theories in an objective fashion, if not for Prohibition. --Dan

[edit] Removed from the page

Removed from the page:

(This idea of foreshadowing Dr. Tim seems to have come from an interview Dr. Tim did with Robert Anton Wilson http://www.rawilson.com in which he was asked if he felt he was continuing the work of Mr. Crowley.)

Actually, none other than Israel Regardie commented on Leary, Aldous Huxley, and others in the mid-20th-c. seeming to continue Crowley's work -- in the introduction to Crowley's The Law is For All, the annotated Liber Legis. That was written in 1970. When was the Wilson interview?

[edit] Writing NPOV about Crowley is hard.

Writing NPOV about Crowley is hard.

That has got to be an understatement. I'd suggest sticking to the documented, undisputed facts of his life. I think you included everything that is undisputed by all sides.

Maybe adding a section: Crowely: Legends and putting in some/all of the stories that are told of him.

[edit] Whats the story with the V-Sign?

So..it is also just a "story" that he "invented" the V-sign? ..and it is also just a "story" that he was the archetype of the witch doctor in "Rosemary´s baby"? ..and it is also a "story" (just half-told) that he was claimed by Charles Manson as a teacher, predecessor etc.? ..and then we have the cycle: Charles Manson kills Sharon Tate and John Lennon was killed by another Crowley believer..in front of the same building where the movie was shot. Perhaps laughing is even possible in a coffin. So: watch your words! Eulenspiegel.

This story is refered by Lon Milo Duquette in Understaning Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, page 8. User:Sepand

[edit] Removed section

Removed section:

==OTO and the Hellfire Club==

Alister Crowley is well know as a satanist, sorcerer, and black magician and for saying "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", which was originally coined by Sir Francis Dashwood of the Hellfire Club. There are many incidences of the Hellfire Club, which are all surrounded with rumours of sexual orgies and satanism. He was the founder of Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), which is recognised as some the unoffical ranks above Freemasonry. Crowley was one of the most prominent members of the secret society netowrk, also a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and 33rd degre Freemason.

It's difficult to say what isn't inaccurate here. Crowley was not a Satanist. The phrase "Do what thou wilt thall be the whole of the Law" is from Rabelais. Crowley did not found OTO; indeed, one of today's OTO sects (Hermetic OTO) does not accept Crowley's "reforms" of that organization. Crowley was apparently involved with Masonry for a while, but not in a particularly regular fashion. [1] OTO is not an appendant branch of Masonry; if it were (as, say the Shriners are) that would mean that one must be a Mason to join OTO, which is not the case. --FOo 03:45, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

He made the list of Hundred Greatest Britons which was done by the BBC. Is this interesting enough for me to try and find out how high he polled? I'm guessing it was a bit like the Jedi campaign in the census but I may be wrong. Secretlondon 22:26, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's here BBC list. It was voted for by the public - they only published the top 10 which he didn't make. Secretlondon 22:34, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We seem to have a copy of the list at 100 Greatest Britons Morwen - Talk 23:37, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removals

I removed the distracting opening tag urging a mergefrom with the Crowley sections of egolessness since the article itself was referenced just below and there is no reason Crowley shouldn't be discussed there as well as here. Ortolan88 05:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] There should be some criticism of Crowley

Criticism: There should be some criticism of Crowley on any text on him. I personally think some of his writings are important, but there are issues in such a controversial figure that have to be criticised:

Crowley and Satanism: He wrote a letter (or wanted to write - I saw both versions) to Trotzky asking him to eliminate Christianity. (Source John Symonds: The Great Beast)

Crowley and Sexism: Crowley was (often) a sexist and wrote for example that women were soulless beings. (New Comment on Liber 220: Note that a woman, having no soul of her own, can be used always as a 'Form' for any Being. This explains why Nuit can incarnate at will in successive women, careless of the physical limits of life. {WEH NOTE: Crowley's opinion regarding the soul-less state of women refers to a matter of expression. He believed it more generally, but probably based it on Victorian male conceptions of "unliberated women". The Comment to this and the previous verse may say more about the defensive insecurity of Crowley the man than the verses of Liber AL. In Chapter I Comment, remember that all this is a male mind trying to contemplate the revelations of a goddess. Square peg and round hole problems may arise.})

He did beat some of his women.(Source John Symonds: The Great Beast) There are many sexist and antifeminist statements in his writings, and I don't have the time to search them all. To be fair, he did write some sentences that could be labelled as pro-feminist. But on the whole, I have the impression that he was rather antifeminist.

Crowley and Totalitarianism: Crowley favored a monarchist and aristocratic society. He was against democracy. Or at least his writings can be interpreted in this way. (Confessions of A.C. "There is no need for the fraud of divine right or the cant of democracy.")

Even a superficial examination of the quoted text from Confessions shows that it does not support claims about Crowley as a totalitarian, or even as a "monarchist." To the contrary, Crowley explicitly condemns "divine right" in that passage. That is, the supposed divine right by which kings rule. The quoted text is explicitly opposing monarchy. Crowley's condemnation of democracy in the same breath is of a piece with his opposition to monarchy: Crowley upheld the will of the individual as supreme, and disliked the "tyranny of the majority" inherent in democracy. If one were to label Crowley with any single political POV it would probably have to be anarchism, though that greatly oversimplifies his views. For a citation on Crowley's moral and social philosophy, see Liber OZ. Editing Note: I also added quotation marks around the cited passage in the original comment.Psuliin 17:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Crowley and Racism: He wrote for example: "..,we always somehow instinctively think of the Italian as a nigger. We don't call them "dagos" and "wops" as they do in the United States, with the invariable epithet of "dirty"; but we have the same feeling." (Source: Diary of a Drug Fiend, BookI-Chapter 9)

You could probably write off 80% of Europeans as racist on similar grounds. Moreover, this is written in character, and I'm not sure that this Diary is necessarily of Crowley himself (despite the introduction claiming this is a true story). It seems like any late 1800s early 1900s writer has post-mortem racism charges piling upYeago 18:48, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's a lot more to tell, about the accuracy and correctness of some of his writings, his influences, his megalomaniac nature, etc. --Lcmwda 22:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you in some impressions. For instance, Crowley varies all over the place in his regard for women -- in one moment praising Woman as equivalent to the goddess Nuit and thus the infinite universe; at the next ascribing to women very little active role in his rituals.

I can't agree with you on the "Satanism" charge. A person can be opposed to Christianity without being a Satanist -- except in the fervid imaginations of certain fanatics who believe that every Hindu and Muslim and Neopagan is a secret Satanist. If you contrast Crowley's writings with (say) Howie Levy's, you will find that Crowley does not use the image or ikon of Satan. He does use the image of Antichrist or Beast 666 (which even in Christian eschatology is distinct from Satan) -- if you dig into Crowleyana you will find that this stems from his own mother (a shriekingly pious member of the Puritan sect of the day) calling young Ed Alex Crowley "The Beast" for his mischief as a child. It is a metaphor. Crowley certainly does frequently invoke Pan, whose classical Greek goatish image was perverted into Satan's by later Christians -- but here Crowley reflects the Neopagan Pan much more than the Christian Satan. Satanism is basically a Christian heresy; and Crowley is no Christian, neither orthodox nor heretical.

What about his "Hymn to Satan" in The Equinox (Vol. I., No. 10)? What about his commentary on the barbarous names of Liber Samekh? There really must be a section on why he is regarded by some as a Satanist, even if he did not actively promote Satanism as such himself. Adityanath 02:09, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree, thanks (see my comments below on "Crowley Satanic?" thread).

  Ideocentric RoyBot (AKA: "Dave", AKA: [69.248.43.27])

On "totalitarianism", it is difficult indeed to see how the man who penned Liber OZ, and that "every man and every woman is a star," can be called "totalitarian". Anarchist, if anything!

This is actually an odd aspect of Crowley that deserves more attention, from someone with more knowledge on the topic than myself. Crowley's views on this actually seemed to change over time. For instance, his "Do as thou wilt" started out as one of the most concise and coherent statements of free will ever expressed. However, by the end of his life, his interpretation of The Law of Thelema had changed so much that he seemed to think it an endorsement of determinism! I recall reading a quote from him (I believe it was in the Equinox, although I couldn't tell you where) in which he advocated the formation of a government office to determine what people's "True Will" was. Which sounds suspiciously like fascism to me... But my knowledge of Crowley's writings is far from complete, so I may be mistaken. Zorblek (talk) 16:48, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

As for your "racism" quote, my copy of the novel Diary of a Drug Fiend seems to be missing at the moment, so I can't confirm it. I wonder if you would mind quoting to me the context -- say, the surrounding couple of paragraphs? Is this quote in the narrator's voice, or that of a character? --FOo 00:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Outward links

• Can link family business: ...dward Crowley was a retired [[brewing|brewer]]--a lucrative family business. His mother, Emily Bertha Bishop draws roots from a [[Devon... (link to section)
• Can link young adult: ...e dogmatic systems of [[Christianity]] and [[Islam]]. As a young adult, he had been involved in the [[Hermetic Order of the Golden... (link to section)
• Can link religious philosophy: ...on in [[Cairo]], [[Egypt]] which led to his founding of the religious philosophy known as [[Thelema]]. ... (link to section)
• Can link illuminism: ...areers were spent expanding the new frontiers of scientific illuminism. Crowley was very adamant toward any who chose to read his... (link to section)
• Can link common sense: ...rom this position of the skeptic, he insists, any person of common sense and reason will be shielded and protected against the many ... (link to section)
• Can link to heart: ...o studying the many paths of occult science should be taken to heart by any serious student, practitioner or historian of Crowle... (link to section)
• Can link libertarianism: ..."to wish." Thelema combines a radical form of philosophical libertarianism, akin in some ways to [[Friedrich Nietzsche|Nietzsche]], wi... (link to section)
• Can link sovereignty of the individual: ...e Golden Dawn. Chief among the precepts of Thelema is the sovereignty of the individual will: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is,... (link to section)
• Can link first commandment: ...shall be the whole of the Law" is, as it were, the system's first commandment. Crowley's idea of ''will,'' however, is not simply the ind... (link to section)
• Can link higher self: ...is focused on discovering one's true will, true purpose, or higher self. Much else is devoted to an Eastern-inspired dissolution of... (link to section)
• Can link new religious movements: ...helema draws on numerous older sources, and like many other new religious movements of its time combines "Western" and "Eastern" traditions. It... (link to section)
• Can link what you will: ...Theleme, and had the motto ''"Fay ce que vouldras"'' or "Do what you will." This theme echoed [[Augustine of Hippo|St. Augustine]]'s ... (link to section)
• Can link Francis Dashwood: ...sophy of [[humanism]]. Others who adopted this idea was Sir Francis Dashwood and the Monks of Medmenham (better known as [[The Hellfire ... (link to section)
• Can link James Rice: ...own as [[The Hellfire Club]]) and Sir [[Walter Besant]] and James Rice in their novel ''The Monks of Thelema'' (1878).... (link to section)
• Can link face value: ...s he meant that mystical experiences should not be taken at face value, but critiqued and experimented with in order to arrive at ... (link to section)
• Can link substance abuse: ...d" has received acclaim from those involved in the field of substance abuse rehabilitation.... (link to section)
• Can link Mother Goose: ...ter purporting to illuminate the Qabalistic significance of Mother Goose nursery rhymes. ''In re'' Humpty Dumpty, for instance, he r... (link to section)
• Can link nursery rhymes: ...g to illuminate the Qabalistic significance of Mother Goose nursery rhymes. ''In re'' Humpty Dumpty, for instance, he recommends the o... (link to section)
• Can link Humpty Dumpty: ...stic significance of Mother Goose nursery rhymes. ''In re'' Humpty Dumpty, for instance, he recommends the occult authority "Ludovicu... (link to section)
• Can link Popular music: ...veral have made reference to him or his work in their own. Popular music groups who have made passing references to Crowley have inc... (link to section)
• Can link on the cover: ...], who placed him among dozens of other influential figures on the cover of their concept album ''[[Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club... (link to section)
• Can link concept album: ...g dozens of other influential figures on the cover of their concept album ''[[Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band]],'' and the [[Re... (link to section)
• Can link rock bands: ...en you are sad know that I have forsaken you." A number of rock bands have taken deeper inspiration from Crowley's work. The Brit... (link to section)
• Can link gothic rock: ...e taken deeper inspiration from Crowley's work. The British gothic rock band [[Fields of the Nephilim]] make numerous indirect refe... (link to section)
• Can link pop group: ..." and "Love Under Will" being more obvious examples. German pop group [[Alphaville (group)|Alphaville]], noted for mystical refer... (link to section)
• Can link Folk-Rock: ...helemic and otherwise occult ideas. The San Francisco-based Folk-Rock band Annwn has performed a similarly themed song, "The Scar... (link to section)
• Can link British music: ...ght'', based in part on Thelemic mystical concepts. Lastly, British music group [[Current 93]] have drawn extensive inspiration from ... (link to section)
• Can link Loch Ness: ..., [[Led Zeppelin]] guitarist [[Jimmy Page]] owned Crowley's Loch Ness estate, Boleskine House, from 1971 to 1992. It is also said... (link to section)
• Can link Led Zeppelin III: ...1971 to 1992. It is also said that on some pressings of the Led Zeppelin III album, one or more Aleister Crowley quotes are scribed into... (link to section)
• Can link Isis and Osiris: ...," or otherwise, Horus, the god of force and fire, child of Isis and Osiris, and self-appointed conquering lord of the New Aeon, offici... (link to section)
• Can link ceremonial magick: ...that puts it in a class all its own. The whole apparatus of ceremonial magick (as conceived and adapted by the Golden Dawn and its offsho... (link to section)
• Can link Nazism: ...fluenced by Crowley) that formed the true inner protocol of Nazism (originally spawned by the Thule Society) is dedicated&#821... (link to section)
• Can link Thule Society: ...he true inner protocol of Nazism (originally spawned by the Thule Society) is dedicated—in theory—to the one single end a... (link to section)
• Can link black mass: ... Pan, which led to newspapers referring to the funeral as a black mass. Brighton council resolved to take all necessary steps to p... (link to section)

[edit] Inward links

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

• In Alan Moore, can backlink Aleister Crowley: ...rowley1.html Blather.net interview with Moore] on magic and Aleister Crowley...</nowiki>

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't it make more sense chronologically to have the "Crowley and Rock & Roll" section placed after the "Mountaineering" one? (I don't know how to wikify a change like that. ;>) That would keep the biographical info consistently in front of the "Crowley's impact" type of material and the miscellany.

Also, regarding Crowley's racism, it's interesting to note that someone who's perceived as relatively benign (in non-academic circles) and contemporary like Rudyard Kipling was as glib with the stereotypes as was Crowley (see the Norton Critical Edition of Kim, for instance).

Mitäa? 08:51, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Fay ce que vouldras"

Unless I'm wrong, the motto of the Abbey of Theleme (which is written as "Fay ce que vouldras" in the article) is supposed to be French- meaning it should be "Fait ce que voudrais". Just an observation.

S o L O 5010

I am given to understand that you are correct in modern French spelling, but Rabelais was not writing in the 21st or even 20th century. I believe the quote is correct as stands (it is certainly at least widely cited) though I have not read Rabelais in the original. :) --FOo 02:24, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The correct modern French would read: "Fais ce que (tu) voudras". "Fay ce que vouldras" is the correct quote. Renaissance French spelling was not normalized and significantly differs from today's.Philippe Magnabosco 12:45, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

"Crowley being visceral towards the frigid and bigotted social views Victorian England exhibited throughout the first half of the twentieth century."

This is just plain wrong. Quite apart from Crowley's own intense racialism and authoritarianism - which is unproven, so I will not put it in the article - it seems rather peculiar to charge all of England with bigotry and frigidity (the word is spelled 'bigoted', by the way).

In addition, Queen Victoria died in 1901, after which there could be no Victorian England.

Matthew Platts 03:53, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I assume the author meant bigoted against non-Christian religions (or perhaps non-monotheistic) and against open homosexuals (they had laws against honesty, remember?)

It's a possibility. But my main point is that 'visceral' and 'frigid' as descriptors don't really have a place in a Wikipedia article, given that they have emotional baggage. The author also needs to say what exactly the bigotry concerns. And, also, Victorian England - if meant literally - is incorrect, if meant figuratively is NPOV. Matthew Platts 02:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It isn't just an NPOV problem. It is incoherent and insulting language, and has no place in a Wikipedia article. --FOo 03:38, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To do (not necesarily by me)

• A few paragrphs on Thoth Tarot - a deck widely used today - he not only wrote about it, he designed the deck with Lady Frieda Harris
• Disjointed - among other things the Moonchild references are scattered about. So is info about the 1904 Cairo experience. (I've moved the Cairo info)
• The bankruptcy and death stuff probably belongs in the biography section. (I've now moved this)
• Rock and roll references could be an article or list unto itself --sparkit 21:17, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Wife(s) and children? --sparkit 22:44, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Brothers and sisters? --sparkit 23:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• How did he come to be called Aleister? --sparkit 23:40, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Did she deny these were his last words or that he died alone? "His last words were supposed to have been: "I am perplexed.", though he did not die alone and the only other person with him (Patricia MacAlpine, the mother of Crowley's son) denied this." --sparkit 00:06, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Some notice should perhaps be taken of his poetry; a few pieces by Crowley appear in The Oxford Book of Mystical Verse, and there is also the amusing collection White Stains, that in particular probably deserve mention. Smerdis of Tlön 14:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• The whole section on Thelema and "Fais ce que voudras" should be removed and merged with Thelema. No need for reduplication. This is definitely on my list. Meantime, just fixing the Greek. The Dogandpony 00:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC) (Doublechecks.) No, this section contradicts itself -- Thelema IS an Ancient Greek word, it did NOT "come from the Bible", and as it was not popularised by Rabelais "as a word". Just needs to be removed and redacted.

[edit] Satanism?

Does Crowley belong in category:Satanism? I'm adding him, but those who know him better are free to remove him if appropriate. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:38, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

I would say that he does belong. At the very least it is very clear that modern day satanists tend to have a lot of interest on his works. Also, the attitudes match very well indeed - both camps (Thelemites and Satanists, as well as AC himself) tend to love misdirection and self-centered, manipulative goals and strategies. One side effect is that it is very hard to acquire reliable detailed info about them. But for the purposes of wikipedia categories I would say there it fits well. Luis Dantas 11:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anton LaVey also had an interest in halloween decorations, but I don't see that falling under the category of Satanism. Crowley was not a Satanist and he should not be placed under that category. --69.18.22.215 18:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Satanism groups on the web (orkut, Yahoo, etc) often mention Crowley and Thelemic concepts, and it is my understanding that the reciprocal is not unusual either. It may be arguable whether Crowley himself was a satanist (although I would include him in the category anyway), but his teachings are of interest to satanists. Luis Dantas 13:59, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley does not belong in the Satanism category as he was not a Satanist. Satanism and Thelema both have an interest in the occult but that's where most of the similarities end. You see them mentioned together because of the occult connections and the percieved wickedness of Crowley and LaVey.--Aboverepine 21:08, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

As an ex-Satanist myself, I would agree. While there are some similarities between Satanism and Thelema (and the former was probably greatly influenced by the latter), there are some very substantial differences. Satanism is all about unleashing the ego, while Thelema is very much about controlling it and channeling it towards useful ends. And while both tend to use some variant of "Do as thou wilt", they mean very different things by it.

Comparing Thelema to Satanism is almost like comparing Wicca to Satanism. There are some cosmetic similarities, and they both have bad reputations, but they're very different. Unless anyone has a serious objection, I'm going to remove Crowley from Category:Satanism.

Zorblek 11:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, he should be removed, whatever people may think of Crowley as a man, his ideology is not based upon any kind of Satanic cosmology. In fact Crowley made many more references to Qabalah, Yoga and Taoism, than anything related to Satan. It is more of a tabloid connection than a factual one. Influence in modern Satanism is not enough of a reason, as many modern Satanists draw influence from very diverse areas including ancient Egypt, which I don't think anyone would say should be included in Category:Satanism. - Solar 12:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

In order to be a satanist, you have to worship satan. Crowley did not do so.

That would exclude LaVey's "Satanism" from being Satanism. Personally, I believe there is a connection between Crowley (which is not to say his Thelema 'will based faith') and Satanism; mostly because he called himself TO MEGA THERION ("the Great Beast" in Greek, which added up, in Greek gematria to 666). Furthermore, he exalted the "whore of babylon" as the feminine extention of the surpeme godhead. Many of his references seem to call the Christian church 'the black brotherhood' and denote them as the enemy. He obviously made some attempt at a Satanist aesthetic without going so far as dubbing himself such. There is definitely enough reason to put a link to Satanism, even if he wasn't flagrantly self assigned such. Nagelfar 06:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't exclude LaVey because LaVey called his system "Satanism". "If A then C; If B then C" does not mean that it follows "If A then B". (A is Satanism, B is Crowley, C is the Book of Revelation). The evidence you cite are all quotes from that text -- it would be better to link to that. I am not aware of Crowley viewing the Christian church as 'the enemy' or referring to them as 'the black brotherhood', unless he meant some individual faction of "Christians". He includes Christ on the Tree of Life in 777, and of course the notion that he 'completed' the work of Christ in Thelema. Neither of these means that he was a Christian, or that we ought to link to mainstream Christianity. The Dogandpony 20:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm a Thelemite, so if I have a bias it would be in Crowley's favor. However, I would argue that Crowley does belong in an article on Satanism. I argue this not because Crowley was a Satanist himself (he was not), but because nearly all of modern organized Satanism (e.g. the Temple of Set and the Church of Satan) was heavily influenced by Crowley's writings. That's certainly not Crowley's fault, but it is nonetheless true. I think that any mention of Crowley in that context should be carefully written and confined to a discussion of that influence. It would be dishonest and incomplete to simply ignore the historical roots of modern Satanism.Psuliin 17:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

According to Christianity, anything that deviates from Christian doctrine (such as the God’s Transcendence, the Atonement, the Trinity or the existence of evil and sin, and so on and so forth) or in some other way helps Sheten Helil (admittedly, the methods for determining this often being highly questionable) is deemed Satanic, to some degree. As long as it somehow weakens God’s authority or His relationship with mankind, wittingly or not, then it helps Sheten, thus of Sheten. To clear it up, Satanism should probably be in the context of Christianity unless explicitly admitted by the suspect him or herself (i.e. Anton LaVey clearly affiliated himself with Satan so we can be sure of that as a default classification, Theosophy, on the other hand, being efface to Christian doctrine while not explicitly Satanic, should be identified as “Satanic according to…” or “Satanic under…”).

So is Crowley a Satanist? Yes, if you are a Christian (and he does seem to gravitate towards Satan, at least he shows quite a bit of hostility towards Christianity in general, and, if my suspicions about his religion is true, he would have to be quite maltheistic though whether that is true Christianity he is against is an open topic).

  Thank you, hope I contributed anything of significance,

  Ideocentric RoyBot [69.248.43.27] 21:31, 30 December 2005

[edit] Sentence Ambiguity

The following sentence is ambiguous and I do not have enough knowledge of the subject matter to correct it:

"His father, after retiring from his daily duties as a brewer, took up the practice of preaching at a fanatical pace."

Does this sentence mean his father, after his normal day's work, began preaching? If so, what and to whom? Or does it mean after he retired from the profession of brewer went on to another career as a minister? Also, I would remove the word "practice" unless he was actually rehearsing to preach. Further, the last phrase could be simplified to "preaching fanatically."

[edit] Skepticism

For you Crowley experts, my cursory research seems to indicate that Crowley's skepticism would be classified as philosophical skepticism rather than scientific skepticism. What do you folks think.

Hans Joseph Solbrig 20:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes and no... Crowley definitely framed his skepticism in terms of science, but his definition of science may have been a little broader than most. Certainly he advocates experimentation, but a great deal of his work relies on subjective experience rather than empirical evidence. Crowley's skepticism contains elements of both scientific skepticism and philosophical skepticism. I think that a simple link to skepticism is probably appropriate in this case.

Zorblek (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moonchild

I was wondering if anyone here knows if Crowley was the coiner of the term "Moonchild", or merely borrowed it from somewhere else? I am asking this question partly because I am considering to create a separate article on his Moonchild - BorgQueen 22:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Asa far as I know the term moonchild existed before Crowley .

A little reference will be nice, if you could provide any. --BorgQueen 09:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Crowley was the author. In fact is a "key novel" with parodies on members of the hermetic order of the golden dawn. --asathoor

Please note that I was enquiring about the term, not the novel itself. --BorgQueen 04:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok the article on Moonchild has been created. Feel free to contribute. --BorgQueen 09:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, before Crowley's novel, the term "moonchild" was a euphemism for a child born with mental disabilities. Crowley seems to have been the first to apply the term to a "spiritually engineered" conception, gestation and birth. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.185.211.21 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Education

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/crowley.htm briefly covers Crowley's education at Malvern and then Tonbridge. Also mentioned in Tonbridge_School

[edit] Music References

I wanted to add a music reference (one by Kimya Dawson) but section's edit link took me to the miscenally section, and the 'edit this page' did not seem to include it. Is this a delibrate attempt to stop people from including every single musical refence to the man (no doubt a large list) or is this an error? Hegar 17:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC) And now the entire music section is gone... I can see that there is an argument for removing it, but shouldn't it have been discussed first? If this was just an act of vandalism can someone put the section back?Hegar 20:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

No, it wasn't vandalism. It has been made a separate article Crowley in Popular Culture. Please check the history of article before suspecting vandalism in the future. Thanks. --BorgQueen 20:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Request for uploading Diary Of A Drug Fiend

I have prepared the following stuff for the article Diary Of A Drug Fiend; Due to my internet account filters I am not able to upload it myself.

--Sepand 05:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@BEGINS HERE@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Aleister Crowley's first published novel was Diary of a Drug Fiend. The book was originally published in London in 1922. Although written over seventy-five years ago, the book is still relevant for today's readers. The book paints a vivid picture of the mind of drug users. The drug user's highs, lows, and sometimes strange thought patterns are described in great detail in this interesting book.

The infamous Aleister Crowley invokes a reaction with some people. Some say he was strange and went off the deep-end with his involvement in Magick, the practice of using various techniques to exert control over the forces of nature. If one is too close-minded to read this book because of the author's reputation, he or she would be missing a great read.

This story is supposedly based on truth. False names were used to conceal the identities of the people in the book. For instance, Aleister Crowley is called Peter Pendragon in the book. Peter went to a pub and was socializing with some people he knew when he saw the woman that would change his life, Lou.

Across the moaning body of the blackmailer, I was looking at the face of a girl that I had never seen before. And I said to myself, "Well, that's all right, I've known you all my life." And when I said to myself "my life," I didn't in the least mean my life as Peter Pendragon, I didn't even mean a life extending through the centuries, I meant a different kind of life --something with which centuries have nothing whatever to do

(Crowley 11).

This truly eloquent description of Peter's first glimpse of Lou reveals that Crowley was truly a master of language. The book is written in such a clever way that the reader continues to want more.

Basically, the story is of Peter falling madly in love with a woman named Lou. They run off to Paris and travel throughout Europe. Lou introduces Peter to cocaine and heroin and they quickly become dependent on the narcotics. When their supply of drugs runs out, the withdrawal troubles begin. King Lamus, helps the two overcome their addiction by the application of practical Magick. Both Peter and Lou find their true purpose in life and live happily ever after.

"Diary of a Drug Fiend" would be a beneficial source of information for professionals involved with the psychology of addiction. Doctors, lawyers, police, and the average person would gain insight into the thought patterns of a drug addict from the first high, to the constant effort to regain the effects of the first high. The craving for the drug, and how it is the only thing the user thinks about when he or she does not have the drug for a period of time is covered thoroughly. How selfish and careless one becomes when he or she needs a fix is also mentioned in the book. Peter lost his love for Lou because he could only think of the drugs. He quickly knew this was wrong and constantly tried to regain his love for Lou.

If people are open-minded and enjoy challenging their beliefs, then Diary of a Drug Fiend may be the book to read. At the time of reading this book, we may find many useful insights that could dramatically change one's life contained within its pages.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ENDS HERE@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

--User:Slaugther 06:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The two entries by 68.40.20.48 seems wrong and is probably some form of vandalism but this is not my field of knowledge so i will leave them alone

Looks roughly similar to the Amazon listing for the book so am inclined to create an article for it. The Land 17:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I deleted: "Lou's father, " in reference to Lamus... ...wait - Lamus was Lou's father? I would like a clear line from the booking saying this - as if this were the case Peter would not have had a sort of jealousy for Lamus and Lou's envolvement!

[edit] Daughter

Just read in an article about funny or weird names names (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,390891,00.html) that Crowley had a daughter by the name of Nuit Ma Ahathoor Hecate Sappho Jezebel Lilith. Probably that is worth mentioning in the article. Unfortunately that is the only thing I really know about this. I don't have any more information on the daughter, when she was born and so forth. Probably someone with more knowledge on this matter could add it? BigBen212 20:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

"Nuit Ma Ahathoor Hecate Sappho Jezebel Lilith"

Poor girl, that is even worse than "Mortheus", "Neo", or even Sue...

  Ideocentric RoyBot (AKA: "Dave", AKA: [69.248.43.27])

Here we have an article that goes a long way to proving that Wikipedia is fatally flawed. A curious person has been described as a serious person. Newton was an alchemist. He also happened to be relevant. Oh well.

[edit] Crowley: A Hyper-Calvinest?!

Were his parents Puritans (as in Calvinist)? Because if they where then that may explain allot not only about his obvious dislike of Christianity and social Puritanism, but also his cosmology. I suspect him of taking Calvin’s doctrine of predestination and irresistible grace to it’s logical limits and ended up becoming a form of Monism, in which God is equally good and evil (and if one is a proscriptive eutheist then there is little difference between the two then, though one of the Prophets does warn of confusing “ the light for the dark and the sweet for the bitter”, which reflects a purely descriptive, Platonic morality). When one goes this step, then the next is accepting Satan as being merely another manifestation of God (such as the Hindu Kali), whether literal or not, and since we are including Satan, then the door is left open for all of the other Pre-Christian European gods to begin taking their respective stations within their Pantheons, the fact that they may be affiliated with the devil irrelevant because the devil, lying spirits, hardened hearts and evil in general are already established to themselves be different manifestations of God. See: Problem of Evil, Problem of Hell and Theodicy for related subjects).

Please note: I am a Christian (Generically Protestant, ideally Lutheran, though I have strong leanings towards Orthodox Catholicism and reformed Arminian churches), so I DO NOT believe any of this doctrine to be true and do consider it heresy, as with Calvinism, and am none-too surprised if Crowley figured this out, if, indeed, that is what he was doing (remember, this is all SPECULATION, I am aware that I am not stating facts). See these two external links [2], [3] and [4] which show how, if one is ideologically honest, TULIP, alongside the traumatic hypocrisy of Puritanism, can produce people like Crowley (this is why the separation of Church and state is so important, given we are fallible beings and thus will eventually fail at any absolutist system, especially Churches).

RoyBot 69.248.43.27 30th December 2005, 19:45 Ů

• Crowley's family were Plymouth Brethren. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)