Talk:ALCO HH series

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALCO HH series is a former good article candidate. There are suggestions below for which areas need improvement to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, the article can be renominated as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review. Date of review: No date specified. Please edit template call function as follows: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}

	Trains Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
	See also: WikiProject Trains to do list
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (assessment comments)
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance within the Trains WikiProject.
Selected	This article was displayed as the Portal:Trains "Selected article" for week 27, 2006.
	This article is maintained by the Locomotives task force.

To-do list	Pending tasks for ALCO HH series:	(purge cache –  edit this list)
	A sidebar needs to be written about Dr. Alfred Buchi and his work on turbocharging diesels. Alco and specifically the High Hood Switchers pioneered turbocharging with the 531T engine.
See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Todo

Contents 1 Green Bay & Western 101 2 Diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric? 2.1 Subtitle "Diesel-electric power transmission" 3 GA failed

[edit] Green Bay & Western 101

Are you sure GB&W 101 was a HH600? Several sources do seem to say it was a HH660, though they could be repeating the same, inaccurate info, of course. —Morven 03:57, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

---

The build date of 1938 is consistent with an HH600. Refer to this 1947 equipment diagram which lists it as 600 HP: http://www.greenbayroute.com/1947diagram19.htm In later years the GBW carried #101 as a HH660 on their official roster; I have been unable to locate the date, location, and reason for the upgrade. —Mark Mathu May 29, 2005

It's possible that they fitted a M&S 539 engine to replace the original, making it effectively a HH660, but we should see if we can find out anything else. —Morven 07:07, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Engine data on the HH660 and HH1000 line of locomotives is inaccurate. No High Hood Alco switchers used the 539 engine. The 539 engine started use with the S-1 and S-2 locomotives. The HH660 used the 538 engine and the HH1000 used the 538T diesel engine. The "T" stands for turbocharger. The HH900 used the 531T engine as developed with the assistance of Dr. Alfred Buchi of Switzerland in 1936-1937. Diesel data from A Centennial Remembrance by Richard Steinbrenner see Alco's first production diesels pp. 166-174. --SSW9389 19:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

See also the note in DSG2 on page ALCO-208, "There appears to have been a variation 8/38 to 7/40 on the 531 engine called the '538'." This is the engine used in the High Hood 660s and 1000s, not the 539. The 539 took the 538 and reversed it in the carbody. That is why the radiators are at the far end of the carbody, and the generator is close to the cab on the S-1/S-2 model Alco switchers. Alco also lowered the 539 engine in the frame to lower the overall hood height. --SSW9389 13:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to fix it. I got the '539' part from one of the referenced books, but there's a good chance they were wrong. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

"The last Model 531 equipped 600 horsepower switcher was delivered in June 1938 and the first Model 538 660 horsepower unit was produced in August 1938." from Steinbrenner p. 171. GB&W #101 was built in October 1938, its an HH660. Production date from X2235 Alco HH roster. --SSW9389 00:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The production date (1938) is not in question. According to a nationwide roster which Alco itself kept revised to 12/67 GBW #101 contained a 600-HP 538 engine, serial number 2513. (Re: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LocoNotes/message/53915). The initial 600HP designation should make it an HH600. —Mark Mathu Dec. 28, 2005

By that reasoning, Central Railroad of New Jersey 1020-1023 were built Dec. 1938, so they should be moved from the HH600 to the HH660 list. —Mark Mathu Dec. 22, 2005

[edit] Diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric?

The article does not mention the type of transmition, are the locomotives diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric? If they are truly diesel-electric, then their early introduction in 1931 would make them some of the earliest diesel electric systems. This would be an important fact and should be highlighted in the article.

I did some research. A data sheet for the Alco HH-600 [1] states that it has an 4-cycle Model 538 6L built by Alco. It also has a "Main Generator" of type "GE - GT551A1". (I assume "GE" stands for General Electric.) It also has four "Traction Motors" of type "GE 287E".

An original data card dated June 1931 (image) lists a "600 H. P. - P. Oil Engine" and four "GE-287-D Motor". The motors are "Spring Nose" suspended and have a gear ratio of 4.25.

I am not an expert on locomotive technology, but I assume the "main generators" amd "traction motors" are part of the electric power transmission.

I am editing the article accordingly.

Petri Krohn 17:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the extra info. I gave your paragraph a bit of copyediting to tighten it up. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subtitle "Diesel-electric power transmission"

(Moved this discussion from my talk page.)

I have removed your subheading since I don't see that the specifications of that particular locomotive and no others deserve a separate section. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 04:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is important and encyclopedic. The ALCO HH series is central in the development of diesel-electric technology, an area that is otherwise very poorly covered in Wikipedia. I added several links to the Alco HH series article from other related articles.

What is important is not listing components of individual locomotives but to discribe the components of an diesel-electric powertrain in the context of their first use. Such a description will have interest far outside the scope of railway enthusiasts.

If you feel that it is wrong to have a subtitle on technology in the 600 section alone (when other models do not have equal detail on technology), then it is better to move "Diesel-electric power transmission" into its own section. I considered this, but it would break the current structure of the article. On the other hand, the 600 and its construction is the basis for the whole HH series and in fact diesel-electric locomotives the world over.

On a general point, I think this article, (like many other railways articles) may be turning into a vanity article with too much detail on individual locomotives. Nothing bad with that, but if it prevents bringing up really relevant information, then it is a bad thing. Petri Krohn 09:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that the history of diesel-electric is poorly covered, but the HH series were production locomotives. ALCO themselves built the ALCO boxcabs before this, also a production run. CNR had full size main-line locomotives running in 1929. GE had a commercial gas-electric using the same principle in 1913. By then, GE, Westinghouse and others had long experience with streetcar traction motors and controls, so made a natural progression to putting the prime mover and generator on board. Meggar 16:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The innovation was in the automated control systems that made the diesel-electric a practical proposition - invented by Dr. Lemp, I believe. The creation of a system that allowed the operator to simply use a single controller to select the power level required, rather than having to independently control the engine throttle, generator excitation, and series/parallel on the motors. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 15:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

For amny reason, first of all I dont think that there is enough bulk to the article, and mainly because the Specifications is not complete yet and does not say as to which model of locomotive it is describing (there are different models so they must differ in spec). Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)