Talk:Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi

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Contents 1 Ambiguous 2 Somali clan? 3 Split? 4 Ethnicity 5 A Fact

[edit] Ambiguous

The article is well written, congrats to the author (assuming its his/her own research), just a note of concern however, exactly what does this line in the 5th paragraph mean?

"While the Portuguese expedition were victorious in most of their engagements with Ahmad's forces, da Gama allowed himself to be trapped by Ahmad somewhere north of the Tekezé River, where he was killed along with all but 140 of his troops."

perhaps its just me but the sentence suggests the Portugese general da Gama ALLOWED himself to be captured. Does it assume the Somalis were unable to capture him? or was this some selfless act by an invading European, giving up his life so that his troops may be saved? Both seems doubtful and strage at best, kindly clear it up.

franz fanon

The source I had at the time stated in vague language that da Gama was maneuvered into a poor tactical position by Ahmda Gragn, who was then able to decimate his troops and kill him in the process. Since then, I've gotten my hands on a translation of Castanhoso's account of the Portuguese expedition (which is commonly accepted as the best account of these events), & learned that what actually happened was more complex. My intent in the next few weeks is to contribute this material to Wikipedia under the relevant articles. -- llywrch 19:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somali clan?

The Akisho, Gadabuursi, and Leelkase articles each claim that Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi (Ahmed Gurey) was a member of those respective Somali clans. None of these articles cite a reference, though. Was any sort of clan affiliation ever documented? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. It is presumed these confederated large clans (that is the four major ones) that exist now actually came at that time or later. No one knows his true Soomaali clan. Many different clans claim, with absurd assertions. Soomaali March 13, 2006

I also just notcied that the Ogaden article states he is from that area. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion and Harar both state he is from Harar. Should all these references be removed pending citation? - BanyanTree 21:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

He's mentioned again in Darod, as a member of that clan. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's false. Though clans probably existed back then, no one knows which clan he was a part of. Futuh al-Habasa doesn't mention his clan, and that's probably the most likely source to mention it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yom (talk • contribs) 04:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

There's evidence that he was actually Afar (but he could be either), and the quotation has little to do with him, being relevant for the article at Adal instead, so I've removed the information, and added relevant info to Adal. Btw, Futuh didn't apparently didn't even mention his ethnicity at all. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Marehan article has made this claim, as well. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Though the article isn't big enough to warrant a split right now, I think that we should have two separate articles. One for the Ahmed Gragn, and one for the invasion of Ethiopia by Adal. The two are obviously distinct even if they are so closely related. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:

"A. was of Somali origin, later called Guray, which is deliberately ignored by his Muslim chronicler." (Franz-Cristoph Muth, "Ahmad b. Ibrahim al-Gazi" in Siegbert Herausgegeben von Uhlig, ed., Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: A-C (Wiesbaden:Harrassowitz Verlag, 2003), pp.155.)

It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)

It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:

"Although the exact influence of the `Afar inside the Kingdom of `Adal is still conjectural due to its multiethnic basis..."

Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.

ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading the Futuh al-Habasha, I've noticed that there is some evidence in this primary source -- although not conlcusive -- that Ahmad Gragn could have been of the Belaw, a Muslim people who currently live in Eritrea. -- llywrch 04:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean the Belew (modern pronounciation - the vowels would be pronounced Balaw in Ge'ez). The name seems to refer to Arabized Beja groups or Beja-ized Arab groups who ruled in NE Sudan (in Beja areas) and parts of western Eritrea (i.e. Kunama and Nara lands). This is the definition given by the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. However, it also seems to refer to Christianized rulers of northern Ethiopia (Tigray and Eritrea) of Beja stock during the Zagwe dynasty (version supported by Taddesse Tamrat). Their origins seem to be diverse, though, so the rulers may have been members of a group similar to the Tigre (who came about later) of nomadic Tigrinya (-related language) speakers (? some conjecture on my part). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Fact

zeila the birth place of ahmed gran is in present day somalia and was also inhabited by somalis 500 years ago

afars were part of the kingdom just like the harari's but doesn't make ahmed gran a harari evendo he made harar the capital of Adal

the imam was supported mainly by his own people the somalis

here is an excerpt from the french historian Rene Basset

• Histoire de la Conquete de L'Abyssinie* (trans. Rene Basset),

http://i2.tinypic.com/t0i0s9.jpg

Rene Basset doesn't address why he calls him Somali, though. Calling someone Somali in passing isn't evidence that it's more likely than being Afar. Harari back then probably didn't exist as an ethnicity, though. Maqrizi notes that Ifat, for instance, spoke Amharic. If you read what I said before, Afars were probably the predominant ethnic group in the kingdom. Either way, being born in Zeila doesn't make him Somali. Zeila was a port city with many ethnicities living in its borders. The current version makes it clear that the common consensus is that he was Somali, though. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 22:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)