Talk:Agim Çeku
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I changed the picture as i think this is a more appropriate one for this page.--Ferick 01:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
There is ample evidence that this article is biased; I will list but a few:
The claim that Albanians have conducted “wholesale ethnic cleansing” of non-Albanians in Kosovo is laughable. Certainly there was violence and retribution against some non-Albanians following the war, but none of this has ever been deemed “ethnic cleansing” by a body competent to adjudicate such claims, and certainly not “wholesale.” The exact opposite is in fact true – the Serbian Government conducted an admitted campaign to ‘ethnically cleanse’ Albanians from Kosovo. It was indeed these efforts that lead to the NATO bombing of Serbia.
“his [Ceku’s] previous war crimes” - - the only court to have indicted Ceku for war crimes is the court of Serbia, in an indictment not recognized internationally, and certainly not by the United Nations. These same courts indicted PM Tony Blair and Pres. Bill Clinton. In fact, the very same indictment that charged Ceku, also charged the former SRSG for Kosovo, Dr. Bernard Kouchner. The article intimates, moreover, that Ceku is actually guilty of these war crimes – such a claim is belied by the fact that the ICTY has openly stated that no charges against Ceku have been or will be made. Of course, the ICTY is the only body with jurisdiction to make such charges.
“When asked why the UN…has not …sent [Ceku] to The Hague …the American policeman just shrugs and says "politics."” - The claim that “politics” is the reason Ceku is not charged ignores the fact that no person has been immune by the Hague Tribunal – as is evidenced by the indictment of both Milosevic and Ramush Haradinaj while he was a sitting Prime Minister. Again, the ICTY has not ever charged Ceku, and has plainly stated that it does not plan to. The claim that the decision not to charge Ceku is somehow related to “politics’ is libelous and certainly not shared with any reputable news sources.
“Canadian soldiers who bore witness to the terrible atrocities committed by Agim Ceku” – The claim is made that Canadian soldiers not only bore witness to ethnic cleansing, but somehow bore witness to Ceku committing these “atrocities.” Of course this is never substantiated by any record of such atrocities. No quotes from Canadian soldiers, and certainly no public record – no eye witness reports, no forensic evidence, nor any other manner of record besides pure unsubstantiated and unattributed hearsay.
Posted in The Halifax Herald, The Windsor Star and The Pembroke Observer – With all due respect to the Halifax Herald (“the best source of local news in Nova Scotia”), The Windsor Star (a daily newspaper for the city of Windsor Ontario), and the Pembroke Observer (“proudly serving the upper Ottawa Valley” with local news and sports) – these are not even the more respected news sources in Canada. Surely we can find some articles from more discerning sources. The crazy thing is that we cannot even be sure that these articles appeared even in these periodicals, as we are linked to a website rather than the newspaper sites. A search of the three newspaper is not forthcoming.
Mr. Vedat Gashi with an Albanian nickname like this (are you by any chance related Mr. Vedat Gashi, Chief Legal Advisor to the Ministry of Local Government Administration of Kosovo ?), I find you to be likely somewhat more biased than Canadian war reporter Scott Taylor. For more "substantiated record of atrocities committed by Agim Ceku" in Bosnia I would refer you to following books dedicated to Canadian peacekeepers experience in Bosnia:
- Tested mettle: Canada's peacekeepers at war (Esprit de Corps Publications, 1998) by Scott Taylor and Brian Nolan, ISBN: 1895896088.
- The Ghosts of Medak Pocket: the Story of Canada's Secret War (Vintage Canada, 2005) by Carol Off, ISBN: 0679312943.
Fisenko 02:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
As for your attack on me:: Congratulations Matlock, you figured out who I am by the fact that I clearly state who I am, amazing detective work. On the other side, we are only to guess who you are and what your biases are by your use of "fisenko".
As for your new "sources":: The fact that you cite a book by the same author as that of the article you cite is actually damning to your argument - if for no other reason than it links us to the propaganda rag that you cite. To quote one "reviewer" - "Taylor does an excelent[sic] job of denouncing[sic] the NATO and Western anti-Serb propaganda[sic]" - certainly his views are not in the mainstream. These are not literary masterpieces.
But even if you did cite literary masterpieces, it would not matter - whether or not one has committed "atrocities" in the former Yugoslavia is not up to the publishers of "Esprit de Corps Magazine" - but rather the responsibility falls to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia ("ICTY") - and ICTY has clearly stated that THERE ARE NO CHARGES AGAINST CEKU. If the events you cite are so well documented certainly the ICTY prosecutors would also be aware of it and have made the appropriate charges.
This is not a matter for subjective disagreement. The ICTY was set up to resolve just these sorts of questions - and it has. AGAIN, The ICTY has not now, nor ever charged Agim Ceku with any crime, whatsoever. The link is pure pro-Serb propaganda and has no place in any encyclopedia. vedatgashi 09:06, 14 March 2006
Mr. Vegat Gashi if ITCY has no political will to publicly charge Agim Ceku, it does not mean there is no evidence he is linked to war crimes. Croatian general Ceku was known to be the brains behind military operations in Medak Pocket in 1993 and Operation Storm in Krajna in 1995. Both operations resulted in large-scale ethnic cleansing campaigns. Here is, for example, a detailed account of war crimes committed by Ceku's men in the Medak Pocket published by the Canadian Army. [1] PS: In any case, on this particular subject, you are the last person who should be asked to decide what has a place in encyclopaedia. Fisenko 19:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- The fact that his men may have committed war crimes doesn't automatically mean that he was responsible for them. The doctrine of command responsibility only applies if he knew or should have known that they were acting illegally. In any case, we can't draw any conclusions from the fact that he hasn't been charged. It doesn't prove anything either way (i.e. whether he is innocent or not) - it simply indicates that for whatever reason, they didn't prosecute. Maybe he really was innocent; maybe there wasn't enough evidence to get a conviction. We can't know for sure, so we can't draw any conclusions on the matter. -- ChrisO 21:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What would make me any more or less qualified than you to discuss a submission to this site? I am not employed by Mr. Ceku and my proffered edit is fact based rather than a statement of opinion. You will note that I did not complain about the article from Serb newspaper Politiken: though one could easily guess from the title and source that it will be biased against the ethnically Albanian Ceku, I have not read the article so I will not prejudge it. Submissions should be judged on their merit rather than on their supposed biases, especially when the discussion concerns facts.
As for your statement about the ICTY - you are wrong to call it a political body. The ICTY is a judicial body. This is the same body the indicted Ramush Haradinaj - the sitting Prime Minister of Kosovo at the time of his indictment. PM Haradinaj was widely praised by the international community for being an effective Prime Minister and positive political force in Kosovo. If the ICTY was a political, rather than judicial body, PM Haradinaj would never have been charged.
In fact, the very fact that you the ICTY a political rather than a judicial body shows your own biases. Take your soapbox elsewhere, start a conspiracy theory blog somewhere else if you'd like, but please leave this encyclopedia for stated, verifiable facts from reputable sources. Vedatgashi 21:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I also just noted that you included an article from 1999 that says Ceku COULD be indicted. The article was reporting on pure speculation - speculation that has clearly been denied by the ICTY in the 7 or years since the article was published. The only reason you would include that article is to mislead the uninitiated reader - smearing Ceku. Your actions are reprehensible - your choices of articles speak for themselves. please push your point of views elsewhere fisenko. Vedatgashi 21:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. There is no mention of the war crimes that he conducted. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned that he was indicted, but unfortunately don't have much information about the specific crimes he comitted. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 01:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir keeps reverting, and claims that it's irrelevant that he was INDICTED FOR WAR CRIMES. Ilir, when you are talking about a leader of a province, do you think it's not important to mention that he is INDICTED FOR WAR CRIMES??? That sounds pretty important to me. And you can't say its vandalism or nationalism, because it is the truth, he really is indicted. The fact that you want to hide that IS VANDALISM!! --Boris Malagurski ₪ 02:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
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- what province? :)))))))))))) in your dreams? I will keep reverting, of course, no one but Milosevic regime (and the neo-Milosevic regime now in Serbia) does not support that ridiculous indictment. Vedat you are wasting your time answering to this guy. He is determined to just write stuff that irritates Albanians, and we of course have a long experience of such psychological games Serbs are used to playing with us. Did it ever work? :))) Greetings, Vedat! Keep up with the good and constructive work! Ilir pz 15:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ha, ha, guess who also thinks it's just a province: Click here for the original list of countries. Flag lists like these increase the load on our servers needlessly. Please don't do it again. -- Netsnipe ► 15:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I feel sorry for you. You were so sure that only Serbia thinks it's a province. Well, too bad for you that the entire UN consider it a province. [2], [3]. Ha, ha! You lose! --Boris Malagurski ₪ 04:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Boris - please note the discussion above. Of course it would be relevant if a person committed war crimes, and certainly any such claims should be fully and fairly investigated - and they have been. The conclusion of the investigations yielded NO CHARGES from the ONLY body competent to hear such claims, the ICTY.
Please also note the following article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060325&articleId=2165 Vedatgashi 09:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, so Interpol doesn't consider him a war criminal. I never wrote that he IS a war criminal, I wrote that the Serbian government indicted him as one. ISN'T THAT TRUE?? I'm just saying what is true, why do you not want from me? In Serbia, it's a pretty big issue, and the last time I listened to EURONEWS, every time they mention Agim Ceku, they mention he's indicted by Serbia. The information won't hurt anyone (unless you're Agim Ceku), so it stays. --Boris Malagurski ₪ 04:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Boris, first off, I would like to thank you for listing all of the members of the UN - honestly, how do you regard it constructive to waste all that space on such a statement? Secondly, you are free to state that Serbia indicted Agim Ceku, but it is missleading to stake that plain fact; if you are to mention such a fact, you should also mention that Serbia has NO jurisdiction to make such indictments. You could also state that the only body that has authority to make such claims has NOT indicted him. The history of anymosity between the ethnic Albanians and the ethnic Serbians cannot be discounted - clearly certain actions are politically and ethnically motivated, and have nothing to do with the actual rule of law. To lend credence to such hatred is to support it, and I can not conscience that.
Now, to Fisenko - I would normally have no problem with including as many links as you would like, but my problem with the links i have erased have been extensively detailed. You have provided no defense for them - I would therefore kindly ask you not repost such links before you have a better defense of them. Vedatgashi 08:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- Vedatgashi, I don't care anymore. Just do whatever you want to the article. The average reader of Wikipedia will get the impression that Serbs are demons anyway, so one sentence will not make a difference. I hate Agim Ceku with all my heart, but what the hell, lets make him a saint. Furthermore, lets just forget about all the crimes Albanians, Croats, Bosnians and Slovenians comitted, and lets focus on the ones that did the biggest crimes - Serbs. I mean, who cares about the others when there is such a blood-thirsty genocidal nation such as mine. Oh, and lets rename Wikipedia, Wiki-anti-Serbia. I'm sure more people would visit it then.
--
Boris Malagurski ₪ 03:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
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- Boris, I am saddened by the fact that you "hate Agim Ceku with all [your] heart." Sadly, your hatred is obvious in your suggested edits. I would appreciate it however if this site could be free from yours or anyone elses hatred. I am by no stretch of the imagination anti-Serbian, and have never, nor will ever, post hateful remarks about any serbian person.Vedatgashi 15:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Proven propaganda links removed. He is never been indicted or investigated for any crimes by any relevant authorities.Ferick 18:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I provide the link that shows Serbia has no jurisdiction over Kosovo, and the Serb above, who asked for the link, removes it. That's not nice :)Ferick 04:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Recent page changes
The aim of the KLA was NOT to ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Serbs. KLA attacks tended to focus on MUP policemen, military, and the paramilitary groups operating in Kosovo. (Including : Arkan's fighters, Frenkie's boys, Lightening and others) While Serb civilians were certainly (and tragically) killed in the conflict there as not a widespread and systematic attempt to expel them. (This was most recently reaffirmed by the Limaj Court in the ICTY, see Limaj decision at para. 225 - see generally for discussion on subject paras. 191-228)
Finally you've edited the sentence to read 'the KLA's stated purpose was...the ethnic cleasing of Serbs" This is a ridiculous statement. Of course their stated purpose was not such. Their stated purpose as defined by the Nov. 1997 official first public appearance of the KLA at Halit Gecaj's funeral was to fight the Serbian forces massacring Albanians. Now regardless of what you belive to be their actual purpose, that was their stated purpose. That is an empirical fact recorded for history. Your addition is a subjective conclusion about cleansing Serbs. This should not be on here. Let readers decide what the KLA actually did through their own research and presention of facts. Please either cite such gross subjective dribble or leave it off Wiki. thanks
I do not think it is right for the Agim Ceku entry to detail his defense to war criminal charges so I deleted a lot of the anti war crimes indictment stuff. They are not facts just what his defense would be.
I keep changing the word "competent" because the people who made the indictment could be competent just not respected or legitimate. I used the word prestigious because that is what the ICTY is. I could use respected or legitimate. There is no evidence that the Serbs are incompetent.
Competent is NOT the right word.
The international authority was competent. It was Interpol acknowledging the Serbian arrest warrant that got him arrested twice in other countries. With a link at the bottom of the page.
[edit] Full protection
This slow edit war has gone on long enough. It's time consensus was reached, so start talking. -- Netsnipe ► 17:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
So the thing is that when Ceku was arrested in 2003 and 2004 it was because Interpol acknoledged the indictment by Serbia. So unless you think Interpol is incompetant when it comes to arrest warrants you have to believe that the entry is WRONG when it says that no competant organization was involved.
