Talk:Afro-American religion

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Just wondering, but is there a reason this isnt listed as "African-American Religion"??? I'm just not familer with the term "afro-american"... american's with afro's? I think the page should be moved to African-American, but then again since I'm not sure and unfamiler with the term I thought it should be brought up here for discussion.--MacGyver07 11:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

African American is a US-specific term. The Afro- prefix, like the Euro-, Sino- or Anglo-, is perfectly acceptable and widely used (see Afro-Guyanese, Afro-Latin American, Afro-Trinidadian); in this context "American" refers to the Americas, not the US. Guettarda 12:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Deleting changes made to Afro-Religious pages 1.1 Mami Wata is a separate religion? 2 New additions to article 3 Proposal 3.1 Loas or voudou

[edit] Deleting changes made to Afro-Religious pages

We have made what we believe are important changes to the Afro-Religions pages, yet they are automatically deleted (reverted) without cause. We have added one of the most basic cosmologcial concepts and divine tenents ineherent in all African traditional and Diaspora religions which is Ancestral Veneration, yet it was deleted without cause.

We have added

. . . New World traditions often masked for their survival . . . However, many in the Diaspora are resorting back to the traditional orthodoxy of their ancestral religions no longer finding a need to mask them.

Which was delete without cause.

We have included the other African traditional religious practices in the Diaspora such as:

Mami Wata Vodoun Ifa Orisha Akhan Kemet (Ausar Auset) Santería Rastafarianism Spiritual Baptist Islam/Black Muslims

All of the above were delete without cause.

Wikipedia has invited others to expand this "stub" yet it is being reverted back without cause. Please explain why these changes are not acceptable and how they are in violation of Wikipedia's three pillars neutral point of view, verifiability, and citing sources. Thank you Anagossii--MWHS 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason, explained in the edit summary, was that you were disrupting the article by breaking good links. It's good that you try to follow the wikipedia policies. Now try to respect the Manual of style too. Please use the "show preview" function instead of frequent "save page", and always add an edit summary (just look at the article's history. Regarding the disruptions of links (which you did again, thus breaking the 3 revert rule), you have changed replaced good link Arará with red lnk Arará (West African Vodoun). Changed U.S. Southern states with red lnk Across the United states (whatever enciclopedic meaning that may have), changed Nation of Islam (which, indeed, would not belong here) with Islam/Black Muslims. You added links that would qualify as self pomotion. You overpopulated the list by duplicating entries to a level of detail that is simply not justified by the purpose of the list (of course there are a few people practising Santeria in the US, but Santeria is specifically Cuban, it suffices if it shows up under Cuba in the list). Normally even sloppy edits are corrected, not reverted, but when they are combined with self promotion, lack of explanations and persistance in error, straith reverting is much more likely to be applied. Finaly, please don't overemphase the talk, it only makes it more difficult to read, and sign using four tildas:~~~~. Again, please read the manual of style, fill in edit summaries, don't disrupt previous edits. Qyd 13:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: FYI, Ghana is not on the American continents, so it shouldn't show up in this list. Qyd 14:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Respecting and reading the Wikipedia Style manual, which I have done, is a process that is best perfected through direct experience. Meaning that I (as you and others have), make mistakes as I am learning. I also take strong issue with your accusations of “self-promotion.” Your justification for excluding “Santeria” and the other African Diaspora religions from the United States category does not make sense. All Diaspora based religions originated in Africa, that does not exclude them from being noted for their development, and expansion in the New World. African Americans (their “insignificant” numbers notwithstanding) must also be recognized as active participants in the various Diaspora religions and this list must reflect this. The NOI (Nation of Islam) as you originally listed is not an African Diaspora religion, and the majority of the African-American population are not adherents. Further, if you do not want an "oveemphasis on talk," then assure that you own information is accurate and supported by verifiable sources. Perhaps another means other than exclusion should be created to reflect this historical fact.Losing patience and condescending to personal attacks and less experience in manipulating the mechanics of Wikpedia will not accomplish this goal. I will still continue (mistakes and all) to contribute if the situation warrants. Anagossii --MWHS 14:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Very well. You could start by fixing the red links that i pointed out (as you could see, I haven't reverted your edits once the discussion started). Self-promotion: I meant adding Mami Wata as a separate religion, when it is just a part of (probably) Voudou. Moreso in [your edits] to Ifá, a clear spamlink which you add persistantly. And believe me, there's no loss of patience on my side, on the contrary. Frustration yes, sometimes when I see you ignoring advices (add edit summary, use a sandbox instead of multiple sucessive edits, don't break 3 revert rule, etc) (click blue links for more info). - Qyd 15:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: the discussion about anything othe than the article should best be taken to your or my userpage, I will leave this here for now, as I see you read this.

Fair enough. I am still working on understanding (not ignoring) the sand box, advice page, and other resource pages. Wikipedia is a bit complex to follow, vision problems not withstanding. FYI: Mami Wata is a separate and distinct religion period. One can be initiated to Mami Wata and not the Vodou. The reverse is also true. Women are the dominate clergy in that they initiate the men,but the reverse is not true. Also, adding the Vodoun and other websites to the Ifa page is not a spamlink. It is critical to actually include as many of the Diaspora religions whose divinatory systems depend upon Afa/Ifa as possible. The intent is to change the all prevailing misperception that Orunmila only speaks to the Orisha and Egun of the Yoruba. There is considerable controversy as well as to its actual origins in West Africa. Although the "Yoruba" are (rightly) credited with its introduction, there is questions of what groups have been excluded that originally made-up the now "Yoruba" clans. Finall, there is no need to "spam." West African Vodoun does not recruit nor proselytize. As many are turned away as are called. It is a tradition of strict orthodoxy which is not for everyone. There simply is no need to "pimp" the religion. However, there is a great need to understand it, even amongst the different practitioners of the various tradition, who (unadmittedly) believe prevaling Hollywood stereotypes. We honor and respect our religions and our only goal is to present them accurately and from our own perspective, as much as possible, as is accorded other groups.

[edit] Mami Wata is a separate religion?

"Mami Wata is a separate and distinct religion period"

On that I can't agree. Does it have a different cosmology? Differnt gods? Different belief system? It is simply a different church, and this kind of dissemination is common in many Afro-American religions. Where would we get if every umbanda church or Candomblé Temple for example would claim a place for as a distinct religion. And please don't tell me you are unbiased. Your user name, Mwhs, stands for Mami Wata Healer Society. I can understand that your religion is very important to you, but try to understand the greater purpose of this encyclopedia. What I'm trying to avoid here is having an obscure movement taking over the focus of articles. That's my point of view, and I would appreciate if you tried to understand it. Qyd 20:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New additions to article

Anagossii (MWHS), I appreciate that we all make mistakes when getting familiar with wikipedia, and I'm happy to try to explain some things you may find a bit tricky. Ask a question about this article here, or a general question on my talk page if you like. However, Qyd is right — some aspects of your editing style are likely to annoy other editors if you continue in the same vein. Especially when you are new to editing, listening to other editors is vital. Discussion and consensus on the talk page should precede any controversial changes, and is more likely to achieve lasting results than continually reverting back to your preferred version (also known as edit warring). Please use edit summaries (the little box above the "save page" button) so that other editors know what you are changing.

As for the content, I have to agree with Qyd that Ghana is not Afro-American and does not belong in the list. I also think that is it enough to list the countries where these religions developed and predominate. i don't think an extensive list of religions in the US section is helpful. Immigrant communities worldwide may practise these religions, but it is counter-productive to list every country. To give an analogy, the Portuguese language is also spoken in the US, but to list the US in the list of countries where Portuguese is spoken would be misleading. ntennis 02:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I am still working on the summary issue. It is a bit confusing for me. In fact, when I view the summary instruction page, it is actually blank. If you can offer an example of what I would place in the box, I will get-it. The section on Ghana I agree should be removed. However, I do not agree at all that the categories in the US section should be changed. The subject heading is "Afro-American Religions," which includes all of the Afro-Diaspora religions not where they originated, but where they are currently being practiced which includes the USA. African religions are the birthright of the African-American Diaspora, and many are returning to these traditions in record numbers. This section must reflect this current reality. The African-American community can no longer be omitted or excluded as if their presence does not count. This is both a travesty to their ancestors and a denial of the many who have returned to their ancestral religions, many are even stronger in their commitment because of the history in America of their suppression. I will remove the Ghana category. It does not belong. Thank you for your civility. Anagossii--MWHS 04:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If you click on the "history" tab (next to the "edit this page" tab), you will see a list of edits, and next to each is the summary that the editor gave. I noticed you are now doing this so I guess you got it! :) On another technical note, wikipedia is case-sensitive — ancestor veneration will work but Ancestor Veneration will not. I'm not sure what you were attempting with the Togo link, but currently, you have linked the text "Southern Ghana, Burkina Faso" to the Togo page. I assume this was not deliberate, but please don't continue to restore this edit after other editors have cleaned it up for you. In addition, there are some problems with punctuation and sentence structure. I urge you to seek agreement here (on the talk page) before making changes to the article that have already been challenged by others. Your continual reverts to your version (with errors) will acheive far less than a vigorous discussion here and will put editors off-side.

I see your point about the page title implying all religions practised by African-diaspora communities in the Americas. However, the lead section describes religions which involve divine spirits/orishas/loas etc. I think it's worth grouping these together, and distinguishing them from other traditions like Nation Of Islam and Rastafarianism. If these are to be included, then to be fair, all Christian churches with significant number of black adherents should also be included — not to mention other religions like Buddhism and Judaism. ntennis 05:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. If you see a red link, it's worth trying it in the "search" box on the left column. You will find there are pages on Kemetic Reconstructionism and the Ausar Auset Society. Again, I feel these faiths need to be distinguished from those spiritual traditions that were brought by communities from Africa to the Americas and maintained since that time. ntennis 05:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. You are correct concering serveral points. Namely adding Rastafarianism and other religious traditions not brought over by Africans to America. You can revert the page. I will clean-up the additions that I have made, and present them here for discussion, and the correct way to include them. Anagossii--MWHS 13:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks :) ntennis 00:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

How about replacing the list with a cross-referenced table like this:

Afro-American Religions
Religion	Developed in	Roots	Also practiced in	Remarks
Candomblé	Brazil	Yoruban Orishas		Some elements of Dahomey loa and Kongo nkisi Also called Batuque
Umbanda	Brazil	Yoruban Orishas	Uruguay	Indigenous elements added (Preto Velho, Cabolho)
Quimbanda	Brazil	Yoruban Orishas		Veneration of spirits called Exus
Santería	Cuba	Yoruban Orishas	USA, Mexico	Catholicism syncretism
Regla de Arará	Cuba	Dahomey loa
Regla de Palo	Cuba	Kongo nkisi	Puerto Rico	Also called Palo Mayombe, Regla de Congo, Palo Monte
Vodou	Haiti	Dahomey loa	USA
Obeah	Jamaica	Dahomey loa	Trinidad and Tobago
Spiritual Baptist	Trinidad and Tobago	Yoruban Orishas	Jamaica, USA	Protestantism syncretism
Hoodoo	USA	Dahomey loa		mostly in southern USA

It would be easier to read and understand the connections (in my opinion). - Qyd^(talk)19:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I think it makes sense to list the religion first, as you have done, rather than the country, as the article has done previously. Perhaps the column headed "country of origin" could be renamed as "developed in", as some could argue that they originated in West Africa? Also, perhaps we could lose Macumba from the list, or put a Macumba link in the comments section of the Afro-Brazilian religions? And Santería is also practised in Mexico and elsewhere?

What are your thoughts on other movements? e.g Santo Daime and Vale do Amanhecer in Brazil have some elements of African spiritual traditions. What about other religions that are primarily practised in the Americas by African-diaspora communities, as discussed above (e.g. Rastafarianism), but can't claim a continuous tradition from Africa? What about reconstructionist religions like Kemetic Reconstructionism? I suggest these are mentioned in the text but not in the table, if only to distinguish them. ntennis 03:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Made te changes suggested re heading, agree, Macumba should not show up in the list, but probably mentioned in the text (maybe as origin of Umbanda, Candomble and Quimbanda?). There probably should also be a short reference to the connection of music and rituals, and the fact that some terms are used for both religion and music (batuque, tambor).

Rastafarianism and NOI: I personally don't think they should be included here, as they are not in line with the definition given in the leading paragraph (and would belong to "African-American religions" rather than "Afro-American Religions"). Santo Daime (and União do Vegetal?) is mainly indigenous, and Vale do Amanhecer... well, UFO, so shouldn't be in the list. But yes, that's a very good ideea to have a paragraph listing them as

religeous movements influenced by Afro-American religions. (I'm not sure if Hoodoo would fall in this cathegory: is it an offspring of Vodou or was it developed separately?) I've no clue what to do with the egiptian ones, but they are certainly worth mentioning. Qyd 04:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the table is a wonderful idea and is more user friendly. More importantly, it is not exclusionary. The table can also allow for the expaning growth and morphing off of other African-based traditions, such as Vodoun which is non-syncretic, and more orthodox, vs. Haitian Vodou and New Orleans Voodoo. For the question below: The word "loa" is not used in Benin to describe the Vodou. That is used in Haiti as well as the Creole word "Lwa." In Benin, the word for Vodou is "vodou" with a small-case "v." The Vodou of Benin is also not blended with other outside elements. African religions came to the New World as complete traditions. The use of saints, and other ethnic blends was largely for its surivival. As far as adding religeous movements influenced by Afro-American religions, This might could be sub-headed under a US Afro-religions. Thank you Anagossii--MWHS 16:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Now i'm going to exopse my ignorace, as I am merely an interested dabbler, but I have some more questions that perhaps you or Anagossii can answer. You classified Haitian Vodou as a Dahomeyan tradition. I thought it also had Yoruba and Kongolese roots? Major families of loa include the Rada (Rada is a cognate of Arará, a Dahomeyan tradition) and Nago (another name for the Yoruba language and people). Also, i noticed Anagossii changed "loa of Dahomey" to "Vodou of Dahomey", which I suspect is a better term. I thought the word loa/lwa was a Yoruba word, and in Benin, "divine spirits" are known as vodun? If so, the table should probably be modified there too. I would like to look at a good reference text if anyone knows of one? ntennis 05:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Loa/lwa is probably a fon word (but I can't back that up); "Vodun" shound also describe those spirits, but it has the major disadvantage of being too close to Vodou/Voodoo, and sofar Vodun redirects to Vodou instead of describing the families of spirits; I believe Voudou is mainly of Dahomeyan origin, although many deities (especialy Rada) have orisha equivalents. "Vodou of Dahomey" is used to describe the religion of Benin (as to differenciate it from Haitian Voudou). This BBC article is a clear and concise reference, and has links to more indepth sites. Qyd 12:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you, for the information. Qyd, do you have evidence that the word loa/lwa is used in Benin? If not I think we should stick to "vodou" in the table for accuracy, as per Anagossii's suggestion. I did come across several websites that suggested the origin of the word is actually French creole (from lois - "law"), although the voodoo article has it as a Kikongo term (but no reference for this claim). I also think you are incorrect about Rada (please put me straight if I'm wrong); the word Rada refers to a Dahomeyan tradition, not a Yoruba one (Orishas), which is identified with the word "Nago". The Voodoo#Haitian Vodou page states that "Haitian Vodou also has strong elements from the Bakongo of Central Africa and the Igbo and Yoruba of Nigeria...", and gives the three most important families of loa as Rada (Dahomey), Nago (Yoruba) and Lemba (Kongo). The Haitian mythology page also states that its roots are in "Yoruba, Kongo and Dahomey mythology". So I think the three should be listed as "roots" of Haitian Vodun unless I am missing something. Thanks for the link to the BBC site, but I was actually looking for a published source that we could cite, in part to address these issues. I'll have a look on google scholar when I have a moment.

Also, I'm surprised to see Spiritual Baptist listed as having roots in Catholicism. As far as I know the christian roots are protestant (Baptist). ntennis 01:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The way I understood it (and I might be wrong), is that haitian voudou spirits are grouped in 3 families: Rada (with roots and strong similarities to west african traditions), petwo (the aggresive loas, specific to the new world traditions) and ghede (spirits of the ancestors). Yes, rada loas have dahomeyan roots; what I meant was that those dahomeyan roots have yoruba equivalents (papa legba=eshu, ogoun=gu=ogun). Rada loas, while being strongly dahomeyan in origin, are closer to yoruba traditions when compared to Petwo and Ghede.
You're right about spiritual baptism being a protestan sincretysm, that was just a wrong copy-paste.--Qyd 04:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for making the table. It looks great. ntennis 06:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Loas or voudou

I would like to change the word "loa" in the table to vodou (as "loa" seems to be primarily a Haitian thing, and for other the reasons cited above). Qyd, you rightly pointed out that the word "vodou" may be confusing, as the word links to the religion, rather than to spirits. However the article does explain in the lead section that the word can refer to "individual spirits or deities". Will you accept the change from loa to vodou? Perhaps you have other proposals/modifications to help clarify it? ntennis 06:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I got bold and made the change for now. Am very open to changing it again! ntennis 06:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I was worried that the links to either vodun or loa would be misleading, having them in unlinked form is a great solution. --Qyd 12:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)