Talk:AFI's 100 Years... 100 Heroes and Villains

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This page features a ranked list. The ratings on this list were decided upon by an outside agency (in this case, the American Film Institute). This talk page should not be a place to voice disagreement with how the list is ranked, as the order cannot (and will not) be changed.

Contents 1 Page Discussion 1.1 Copyright infringement? 1.2 Not human 1.3 Firearms Trivia 2 Ranking Gripes 2.1 Travis Bickle 2.2 Oldboy's Woo-jin 2.3 American movie Heros and Villans 2.4 Juror #8 2.5 Darth Vader 2.6 Non-fictional villain 2.7 Superman 2.8 Jefferson Smith is up there... 2.9 What about Maul? 2.10 How can Hannibal lecter get first place? 2.11 Cape Fear 2.12 Poor ol' Mr. Smith 3 batman 4 Vandalism 5 Highest ranking non-fictional? 6 Poor Ridley 7 Jaws 8 James Bond 9 Not up for debate

[edit] Page Discussion

[edit] Copyright infringement?

Just listed this at Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements. This is a non-obvious selection and ordering of items, so it's copyrightable. A list of our own selections of heroes and villains would not be problematic. Unfortunately, this one is AFI's version and they own the rights to it. The article itself doesn't need to be deleted but the list does, so I've edited the list out of the article. Jamesday 17:15, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What if the list were taken and listed alphabetically. It then would be different and wouldn't carry the value of the listing ordering? Kd4ttc 04:32, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

On further reflection this is not Copyrightable. The show is copyright protected. However, the list of the people covered in the show is an original work that reports what was on the show. The reporting of what was on the show qualifies this piece as news reporting, so if falls under fair use. Kd4ttc 23:47, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Not human

Freddy Krueger isn't human? His Wikipedia entry sure says so..... – (empoor) 14:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It says the Devil isn;t human. Fair enough, but where doeshe appear on the list of villians? DellusMaximus 05:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Firearms Trivia

Does vader ever use a firearm on screen? He uses the blasters on his figher craft a fair bit but a firearm is handheld and gunpowder driven according to wiktionary at least. It could be that no top ten villain uses a firearm.Scarlet 13:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ranking Gripes

[edit] Travis Bickle

How can anyone think that Travis was a villain? The only serious actions he makes in the movie are positive -- he saves a young girl from prostitution! I can't take the list seriously after reading that. 71.83.51.12 19:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oldboy's Woo-jin

Of course the list isn't going to change. But anyone feel that Woo-jin from Oldboy would be a good candidate for the villans list? Except for the fact that Oldboy isn't an American movie. I still think he makes a darn good villan.

Agreed, without a doubt... Woo-jin was great. 71.83.51.12 19:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American movie Heros and Villans

James Bond and the actors who played him aren't American so why is he on the list Dudtz 7/22/05 3:36 PM EST

It's the American Film Institute, and the producers of the James Bond films are American.DonQuixote 18:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Juror #8

The link sends you to an article called Jury which has very little to do with the actual character. Paperdoll66

[edit] Darth Vader

Why is Darth Vader on this list. If you take the character from all six films, he is NOT a villian, but a tragic hero. So he should not be included on this list. However, if it were a list of antagonist and proganist, then that would be a diffrent thing all together.

Take it up with the AFI. Tnikkel 10:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if we're pointing out flaws, I find Travis Bickle's inclusion MUCH more inaccurate...if anything he's an antihero, but a villain? But however, this is not the fault of Wikipedia, but of the AFI, as Tnikkel pointed out.Eric Sieck 03:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It's just the opinion of a group of people. If I were to assamble such a list, it would be a lot different. I too think some things are wrong about this list, but it's all a matter of opinion. Therefore, it can never be right. --Vincent de Ruijter 03:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-fictional villain

The trivia section blaims Captain Bligh is the highest ranking non fiction villain. Isn't Amon Goeth non fictional? The trivia section also lists Batman, It's A Wonderful Life, Schindler's List, and The Silence Of The Lambs as the only films to provide characters for both lists. But Han Solo and Darth Vader appear in the same movie three times. So therefore this list should atleast include Star Wars.

[edit] Superman

Why wouldn't someone consider Superman to be non-human? After I thought about it, none of the characters from Star Wars are either. So, I believe that replacing it with humanoid instead of human and omitting the mention of Superman would be satisfactory.

[edit] Jefferson Smith is up there...

...as a hero (of course), but why not Jim Taylor as one of the top villains? If I recall correctly (should I put one of those *Spoiler Warning* things here? My first time), he sends his goons out to dispose of the "Boy Rangers" in order to obstruct their pursuit of the truth/justice/American Dream... I mean, he literally calls in a hit on the Boy Scouts! That's just plain evil, and if that doesn't make someone a villain for the ages, then nothing does.

The Martians from Mars Attacks! should be mentioned too, by that standard. One of their ships goes out of its way to topple the Washington Monument onto a troop of boy scouts. But more likely, the heavies in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington are too stereotypical to leave any lasting impression. Personally, I'd take Smith off the heroes list, too, just for being such an idiot. If all freshman Senators acted like that, Washington would be even more screwed up than it already is. BryanEkers 03:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Maul?

I remember several instances in which it was clearly mentioned that the Star Wars character "Darth Maul" was "everyone's favorite villain". So why doesn't he appear on the list?

[edit] How can Hannibal lecter get first place?

I mean, how can a guy who eats people, get first place. Then Norman Bates, who plas some Psycho get second place. Darth Vader is memborable then does two????

Pece Kocovski 07:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cape Fear

Number 28 on the villains list is Max Cady from Cape Fear. But we have a problem: the AFI's list doesn't clearly say which version of the movie is being used. Is it Robert Mitchum in the 1962 version or Robert De Niro in the 1991 version? It doesn't seem right for Wikipedia to arbitrarily say which version is being referred to if AFI is ambiguous. -Phoenixrod 03:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Mitchum was much scarier, and he was there first. Clarityfiend 19:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

scarier than De Niro ? :-0 . Nice list anyway. Amoruso 00:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Article mentions both incarnations. Original nomination from AFI specifically mentions Mitchum; de Niro's movie gets a mention ("Also appeared in..."), but de Niro himsself doesn't. AFI crew must have found the elder Robert more frightening. Or maybe they had just finished watching "The Winds of War" on HDtv. --SigPig 04:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor ol' Mr. Smith

I don't know about you, but I personally find the exclusion of Hugo Weaving's "Agent Smith" from the Matrix Trilogy kind of upsetting. I mean, if this list has to do with a villian's popularity, Mr. Smith is a no-brainer. Also, while I've only seen the first Matrix movie, (I've heard I'm not missing much by not watching the others) Weaving's portrayal of the agent is great, and memorable to boot.

Ah, well, nothing we can do about it. (oobug^talk/_contrib 20:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC))

The Alien from Alien should be renked much higher. It's an alien that implants itself iside you, bursts out of your chest, and then proceedes to attack everything. Plus it has acid for blood. It doesn't get much worse.

[edit] batman

why is batman a villian?

He's not supposed to be, someone has been vandalizing the list. Brash 01:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This list keeps getting vandalized by people who don't understand that their opinion doesn't matter when it pertains to AFI's top 100 list. I suggest we semi-protect this article to prevent any further vandalism. After all, what's the point in further altering a list that will not change? Until then, I am going to go through the article and fix all of the vandalized entries. For everyone's convenience, the following is a list of all the entries that have been vandalized, or are just merely incorrect, or just simply incorrect:

• Villains
  • (26) Batman (Supposed to be: Cody Jarrett)
  • (30) Harry Callahan (Supposed to be: Travis Bickle; I'm going to attribute this change to 71.83.51.12.)
  • (45) Satan (Supposed to be: The Joker)
  • (47) Tony Montana (Supposed to be: Tony Camonte; this character's actually from the 1932 movie Scarface, not the 1983 film of the same name.)

• Heroes
  • (17) Travis Bickle (Supposed to be: Harry Callahan)
  • (24) Hannibal Lecter (Supposed to be: Thelma Dickinson & Louise Sawyer)
  • (27) Alex DeLarge (Supposed to be: Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein)
  • (46) Scarlet O’Hara (Supposed to be: Batman)

Brash 01:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea. I block-reverted a bunch of vandalism, I must have missed a few. It's hard to keep up all the time, which I think the vandals are counting on. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 04:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Some of this vandalism comes from sheer idiocy, but it also appears that a lot of it is malicious, or at the very least mischievous, in nature. (Replacing Batman with Scarlet O'Hara and The Joker with Satan? Come on.) We should semi-protect this page to prevent further vandalism. Brash 06:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Highest ranking non-fictional?

From the article's "trivia" section:

T. E. Lawrence (#10) is the highest ranking non-fictional "Hero," while Clay Shaw (#15) is the highest ranking non-fictional "Villain."

The #15 entry is not (in the article) Clay Shaw, but rather some German dude from "Schindler's List" (and it would not surprise me if this German dude is non-fictional). Who is Clay Shaw, and what gives? --212.242.162.21 22:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Clay Shaw addition was vandalism, and has been corrected since 29 Nov. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 06:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Ridley

He did't even get an Honourable Mention

[edit] Jaws

He's one of Bond's most persistent enemies, although he turns good at the end of Moonraker. He's also the only one not to die at the every film he's in. He ought to be on the list.

[edit] James Bond

He ought to be in there too.

[edit] Not up for debate

Before you start pitching your ideas for who deserves to be on this list, or before you start editing the list yourself, please keep in mind that this list is not up for debate. This is the AFI's list, not a bunch of jackasses on Wikipedia's list. I'm getting really tired of repairing all of the rampant vandalism that's occurring on this page. Brash 09:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Since this page seems to be vandalized so much, I'm going to start warning users who vandalize this page. I hate to be a tool, but this is way dumb. Brash 10:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)