Talk:Aerith Gainsborough

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Please read before editing:

• This article name is "Aerith Gainsborough". This is not a typo, nor is it incorrect.
• This article uses "Aerith". This is not a typo, nor is it incorrect.
• Please do not change any name spellings - these changes have been made many times and have always been reverted. Please also be aware that when editing the template values it may affect the display of the images.
• Any discussion on this should occur below. People are aware in FFVII English localisations Aerith's name is Aeris but it is policy on the English Wikipedia to use the official name, and Aeris was merely the official English name. Changes may occur dependant on the name spellings used in upcoming Final Fantasy VII sequels.
• Be sure to read through the topics below, and if you want to ask a team of Final Fantasy editors, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy.
• Be sure to date any comments that you make in the discussions, any undated comments may be subject to removal.

This article was moved from Aerith Gainsbourg to Aerith Gainsborough on 15 September 2005 (see talk page/archives)

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Archives
Name debate archive (February 2005 - May 2006) Regular archive (January 2006 - August 2006)

Contents 1 Final Fantasy Tactics 2 Aerith's Theme 3 Final Fantasy Tactics 2 4 Characteristics? 5 Question from User:75.81.9.133 6 Death 7 Mandy or Mena

[edit] Final Fantasy Tactics

Hope you don't mind, but thought I'd pursue this topic separately, as it's a slightly different issue.

We're referring to the same character in that section, thus, we use the same name for consistency, and in an attempt to avoid confusing the reader of the article. So unless you want to make the argument that the "Aeris" in Final Fantasy tactics is supposed to be an different character named "Aeris", rather than the same character... It just isn't going to happen. -- Rablari Dash 07:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

First off, she ISN'T the same character. This is factually indisputable. Tactics was an alternate timeline. It's debateable whether or not that's even the same 'cloud', but that is certainly not the same Aeris.
It is another Aeris that happens to be a flower-girl. The whole point of the caption in the article there is that she resembles/mirrors the 'aerith' of FF7, but ISN'T her.
"taken aback by her resemblance to the Aerith he knew. Aeris asks Cloud if she reminds him of someone, but he denies this and walks away." She isn't the same character; in the sense of being literally the same person. It's an absolute certainty that it's a different Aeris. (obviously an identical character, but they aren't one and the same)
As such, Final Fantasy Tactics is the only reference available for that character. Nothing else that's being cited applies to her. Since there is only a single source of reference for that character's name in tactics, that is the name that will stay.
Don't change it unless you can cite an example of her being called 'Aerith' in Final Fantasy Tactics.

I'm not going to call people on calling her Aerith elsewhere, even though what they choose to call her now has zero relevance on what her name was in the game. (They could start calling her "Harold" in all future works; that wouldn't change the fact that her name was "Aeris" for FF7.) But frankly, I don't care. Valid or not, the name 'Aerith' is pretty common among people who actually still care, so that lends it a bit of credibility. However, there is only one source for the name of the character found in Final Fantasy Tactics. Calling her anything else is a fabrication or a whim. Give a citation for that character in that game, or drop it. Bladestorm

I haven't played much of Tactics, and have never seen the scene in question, so I was not certain whether or not it referred to the exact same character. However, I'd say that it is also indisputable that the name of this character in the Japanese version of FFT is the same as the character in the Japanese version of FFVII. They characters themselves look the same, and are obviously supposed to essentially be the same character, though they're from alternate universes, and have different pasts, memories, etc. Much like "Aerith" and "Cloud" in Kingdom Hearts. They're still the same character, they're just placed in a different setting and story. This isn't that unheard of in Japan, unlike over in the western world.

I think it should be obvious what the intentions of the writers were in this instance, and it should also be obvious what happened. Final Fantasy Tactics was translated and released by Sony in America only 5 months after the American release of Final Fantasy VII, which was also translated and released by Sony. It's not a matter of Square-Enix changing her name, which was, and always has been, "Aerith". Any proof that her name was originally "Aerith" and was miswritten by Sony as "Aeris" applies equally well to the incarnation of the character in FFT. Why would this character be named "Aeris"? I really doubt that the original Japanese writers intended for her to have a slightly different name than the character she resembles. For the Japanese audience, the two characters had identical names. Thus, they should also have identical names in the English versions. Her name has been written in roman characters in Japanese publications as "Aerith", and I imagine that any Japanese publications that mention her appearance in FFT spell it "Aerith". If someone has a copy of the Japanese FFT strategy guide and could scan the relevant page for us, that would probably settle the debate.

I'm still rather boggled how anyone can insist that Sony's translation is somehow more official than all the media printed by Square-Enix. Americans were first introduced to the character as "Aeris", but first impressions aren't always right. And correcting a mistake made by a third party isn't the same as changing your mind.

Anyway, I've left your edits for the time being. I don't want to start another revert war over this. Ok, time to take a step back, and breathe. And then attack the metadebate, which means laying our cards out on the table, trying to understand each others' positions, and resolve concerns, rather than staking out positions and attacking each other. Sheesh, that's what I usually do in an argument: address the reasons the person is making the argument, instead of butting heads from the limited viewpoint of being in the argument. Well, now I know what it is to be embroiled in one.

Ok, here's my honest position. I'm not a big fan of Final Fantasy VII, or even the Final Fantasy series in general. I've usually preferred Square's other titles, and have always been irritated by how much some people obsess over the Final Fantasy series, how "RPG" and "Final Fantasy" are synonymous to so many people. Or how some of the fans insist that every installment of the series is automatically better than every other game in the world. I didn't play and obsess over FFVII when it came out. I don't have this emotional attachment to the characters. I think that a lot of the people who argue that Aerith's name is spelled "Aeris" are either eurocentric and believe that only the English version matters, or they're just so attached to their personal experience of the game, attached to the character, and emotionally attached to the spelling "Aeris". I don't find either of these to be strong positions. Which is why people don't argue from them. They make up other reasoning, but hide their true reasons, because they realise that their selfish, personal reasons wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. Or maybe they don't even realise that's why they hold the position they do. Neither of those are typically conscious things.

That's how I see the situation. Maybe I'm wrong. If I am, I'd like someone to correct me on it. Now, here's why I care that her name is spelled "Aerith" and not "Aeris": respect for the creators of the character. Were someone to translate my works into another language, and change the names of my characters, I would be offended if someone insisted that the names I have chosen for my own characters are somehow "wrong" or "less official" than the names created by the foreign publishing company. So for me, it's a simple application of The Golden Rule. I would want people to respect my decisions about my characters, and therefore I feel that I should respect other people's decisions about their characters.

Also, ethnocentricity really bothers me, so I try to fight it wherever I see it. People believing that somehow their culture is absolutely superior to all other cultures tends to prevent them from learning from other cultures, and also prevents them from seeing anything rotten within their own culture. It frustrates human evolution, which already frustrates me with its lethargic pace.

So that's it. In summary, I don't personally care about the name of this character. I care about how the works of any artist are treated, and I care about correcting obnoxious attitudes towards other cultures. Most of the arguments about Aerith's name, or a number of other similar arguments about translations of Japanese media, pretty much sound to me like "Just gimme the game and shut up, you stupid jap!". I know that's an exageration, but there's just so much disrespect for the creators of things people love. -- Rablari Dash 20:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It stems from familiarity, in some cases. So you shouldn't take it so hard. Sometimes it is as you said, and I've seen that too. Personally, I call her "Aeris" because it's what I'm familiar with. The 100 + hours I've sunk into FF7 hasn't been succesfully overwritten in my heart and mind by two KH cameos and one FF7-inspired movie. However, I do support Aerith. I mean, go to the DBZ article for Freeza and write "Frieza" (and then state that "this is English wiki" as your reason) and see how long that edit holds up. Wikipedia should uphold the original intentions and most accurate information. Translated or dubbed names must be noted, but the main name should be the one given by the creators, not a localization team. Onikage725

I'm not sure if you're talking about in general, or specifically for FFT. (the comment was under the FFT section) So, I'll address it either way. :) If you mean for FFT, then there isn't actually any material for what to call her in FFT other than the game itself. Conclusions made about her FF7 name might logically be tempting to apply to FFT, but that's really stretching the reasoning. There's only one source of material for the unique character found solely in FFT, and that said Aeris, so that's the name of the flower girl in FFT, even if it's a bit inconsistent or unwieldly for the article.

However, I'm guessing that you were talking about in general. First off, I should like to point out that mentioning DBZ is actually a good idea... but it speaks against your case. There were different, rather inconsistent, names for the characters in it. In one case, where the androids are scanning the protagonists, you actually see Piccolo identified as 'Piccoro', spelled out clear as day. However, his name is still listed as Piccolo, because that's what his name is known as in English. Furthermore, while although I am loathed to cite wikipedia when discussing what should be done in wikipedia (the practice should generally be avoided, as it tends to propagate errors), there's an alternate reason provided for listing Frieza as "Freeza". The translations of the manga, which are considered to be a more reliable canon than the anime, list him as Freeza. That is to say, since the show is less canon than the manga, it cannot override something established in it. In this case, that means he gets listed as "Freeza", as weird as that spelling looks to me.

Now, the core 'canon' in this case really should be considered to be FF7 itself. There is only one english version of the original game. It's been re-released, including a computer port. The spelling is always Aeris. Thus, as far as 'canon' is concerned, her 'real' english name is 'Aeris'. Kingdom Hearts is immaterial and unreferencable, as it isn't Canon. It doesn't even qualify as a what-if. Even Advent Children, and other media centred around the original timeline/story, don't count. Because they don't change what her name WAS. If Aeris were a real person, then yes, she could be renamed. The best that you could say is that her name was Aeris in FF7, and Aerith in Advent Children. But nothing will change what her name was in FF7. If they follow through with a re-release on the PSP, or a remake on the PS3, and change her name to Aerith, then there might be room for discussion. However, until that time, there is absolutely no question that, in Final Fantasy VII, the Playstation Game, her english name was Aeris.

That said, I still don't really care how she's listed in general in the article. The second criteria for deciding how to list characters' names is how they are "best known". And this is why I prefer listing Teknoman as "Tekkaman Blade" in the appropriate article. His english name was Teknoman, but to anyone who still remembers/cares about the series, he is best known as Tekkaman Blade. Similarly, though I can't cite evidence to the effect, I suspect that most people who still care about FF7 tend to call her Aerith. Certainly, nearly every single forum, fansite, web reference, etc, I've ever seen have listed her as Aerith. And that is why I can accept her being listed as Aerith in general. Because there's precedent set for listing characters as they're most commonly known. Bladestorm 15:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that more copies of titles translated into English that used "Aerith" have been sold than the two games that incorrectly used "Aeris" — and all have been sold in the last four years, which is certainly more recent than 1997. "Aerith" has had more English exposure than "Aeris", so is the more recognizable, especially with all English video game publications using that spelling. Ryu Kaze 14:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Really, the spellings "Aeris" and "Lockheart" are only used at all in media pertaining to the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII.—ウルタプ 14:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You meant "not used at all", didn't you? Ryu Kaze 14:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

er, no. I meant what I said. Those spellings are only used in CoFF7 media.—ウルタプ 04:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's why I'm confused. "Aeris" isn't used at all in any of the Compilation material. Like at all. Ever. Not even in any of the English stuff. For that matter, I don't think "Lockheart" is either. These romanizations were only used in materials put out by third parties years ago. Ryu Kaze 12:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I can somewhat see Bladestorm's point, after reading that above response. Basically the question is original name vs. US name. For US name the criteria seems to be subjective. We have Aeris as the official name in the game she was from and the highest source of canon on her, Aerith in the spin-off movie. I don't think FF Tactics OR Kingdom Hearts should be cited for either case, as both are AU's of the character and not canon. Tho in the case of judging FFT on it's own, the debate is the same. If we go by official US name, then she was named Aeris. I don't have access to a Japanese copy of the game, but I'd bet money that the characters used in her name are exactly the same as those used in FF7 and that she's meant to have the same name (in which case if consensus is to use original names, a case could be made for Aerith there too.

Oh, and on the DBZ names, the consensus on those articles hasn't been strictly manga. Example- we Use Majin Buu, not Djinn Boo. We use Pui Pui, not Pocus. We use Vegetto, not Vegerot. The general consensus has been to go with official romanizations of the original names. To address Piccoro, that's the lack of "l" that we should all be familiar with. However his name is officially Piccolo (he and all his henchmen in his first saga are named after musical instruments.) That's why Furiza comes out Freeza (I don't feel like going into the phonetics, but I basically just wrote the same thing twice, also pun on Freezer, and "ie" doesn't make a long "e" in either language and is essentially a dub typo). We use Coola (Kura, pun on word Cooler) instead of Cooler. You get the idea. In all cases the dub name (and viz manga name if applicable) are mentioned as well, but we generally use originals. There are some exceptions, like Hercule being so wide spread amongst English fans and being used in both the US manga and anime that it's used out of familiarity.

To bring this back home, if the naming here became familiarity , I don't think Kingdom Hearts should supercede FF7. Two mini-cameos in a what-if game series, So then it would basically be FF7 vs Advent Children. I don't even think they say her name in AC, but it is Aerith in the credits.Onikage725

It doesn't make sense to look to what is or isn't FFVII canon to decide this. That's taking an in-universe perspective to analyze an inherently out-of-universe matter. While the character isn't the same person in terms of story, it's the same character in terms of design and name. We couldn't even call it a cameo if it wasn't the same character on some level.

Going by familiarity, we've got four titles that have been released in English markets with the use of "Aerith", all in the last few years, as opposed to two titles released 9 years ago that incorrectly used "Aeris". Furthermore, those four titles using "Aerith" have sold more English copies combined than the other two titles, meaning "Aerith" has had more exposure and is more recent. There's also more titles coming that will be using "Aerith". Added to that the fact that video game publications, strategy guides for the games involved, etc. use "Aerith" and it's undeniable which of the two is most familiar. Ryu Kaze 13:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not use Aeris when describing FF7/FFT, and Aerith when referring to other games, with an expanation of the discrepancy? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That might be the best method, so long as the page name remains "Aerith Gainsborough". Ryu Kaze 13:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking That one chick who dies in Final Fantasy VII, but your idea is good too. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aerith's Theme

Aerith's Theme is also featured during the end credits of the movie.

I thought the ending theme song was "World Crisis," also known as "End Credits" for the Advent Children version. Does Aerith's Theme also play during the credits? I think this info is incorrect. Chibi Gohan 20:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

…no. "World Crisis" and "End Credits" are two different pieces, albeit both being medleys. It's quite correct information.—ウルタプ 22:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You know, I think the confusion stemmed from the Reminisence of Final Fantasy VII, which used the song during the ending scene (where World Crisis plays during the actual game). Nevertheless, End Credits and Aerith's Theme are two totally different songs, so am I confused about something? Because that's the only song that plays during the credits of the movie. In fact, I think that's the song that you can play on Tifa's piano in the game, is it not? Chibi Gohan 23:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Never mind that. I managed to listen to the song and found that a portion of the song is indeed played during the ending credits. I thought the above quote was implying that the entire theme was played during the credits (like how most movies have an assortment of songs during their credits instead of one). Sorry for the confusion. Chibi Gohan 23:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final Fantasy Tactics 2

Yes, the Final Fantasy Tactics section needs to be seriously re-written, because the flower girl in question was not Aeris, but merely a flower girl who looks like Aeris. There is no place in the game where the flower girl is named Aeris, her name is simply Flower Girl. There is no debate between whether it's properly 'Aeris' or 'Aerith' here, as she was called neither in the game. She was a wholly different person who simply resembled Aeris. Jinx9117 00:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Town Knave calls her Aeris:

Town Knave: "I've been looking for you, Aeris... Selling flowers for your mom? Good for you..." ("Zarghidas Trade City", Final Fantasy Tactics)

Whether or not it's a coincidence, we don't know. However, considering that Final Fantasy Tactics was released a little after FFVII came out and Square-Enix didn't have to worry about extremely rabid fans, I think it's safe to assume it's Aerith the way Aerith was in the KH series. It's not the same Aerith in FFVII, but it's still Aerith — just in an alternative universe. —Mirlen 21:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Characteristics?

You're referring to Protofox's revert, correct? That question is best to be directed to the user himself, and I see no reason to attack Aerith's article which contains perfectly legimitate information because someone made an edit you didn't like an another article. If you have comments regarding information in Tifa's article, please address it there and keep this article out of it. However, I will assume good faith according to Wikipedia's policy and refrain from further comments (unless necessary) on that subject.

It's important to note that characteristics doesn't have to be limited to a character's personality. (The only reason why the characteristics section is limited to her personality is because no one has taken the liberty to add other qualities of Aerith in, or perhaps somebody has not seen the need to, since that particular information is dispersed throughout the article.) According to the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, a characteristic can be "a distinguishing trait, quality, or property." This means that a characteristic can also apply to the character's design, appearances, etc., which brings me to my next point.

If a character's personality is "fairly obvious" and therefore not worthy of mention, then wouldn't the same idea apply to a character's design, as that is a part of a character's characteristics. In this version, you were not opposed to the design section in Tifa's article and yet that is even more obvious than Aerith's personality. Even a reader who has no idea of FFVII would be able to tell that she has, to quote an excerpt of the sentence you inserted, "black hair, red eyes, and (of course) large breasts" just by looking at Tifa's image placed in the infobox.

Aerith's personality may be obvious to those who've played the game; however, this article isn't for gamers who are familiar with the game. Wikipedia is a general interest encyclopedia. Those of us who are familiar with the game may know, but an average reader is most likely unfamiliar with the subject. The style the encyclopedia should be written is for the editors to assume that the reader does not know anything. If you have a problem or criticism regarding this policy/guideline, you are certainly welcome to bring up your case at the Village Pump, where you will find plenty of editors who will be happy to discuss it over with you.

In conclusion, the current format is align with fictional character featured articles such as Jabba the Hutt or Padmé Amidala or Wario, so the section is perfectly encyclopedic and does not violate any policy or guidelines of Wikipedia. —Mirlen 22:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question from User:75.81.9.133

"I know this is kind of a silly question, but how do you pronounce Aerith? If you know please write it under my question."

Aerith is pronounced the same way you pronounce Aeris - "Air-iss".

[edit] Death

Any REAL explanation from Square about why can't anyone just Phoenix Down her back to life? I know the 'dead' status is only fainted, but why every unfainting suff is called Phoenix and so on? C'mon, her death was just plain stupid, wasn't it? 200.230.213.152 16:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Not only did you answer your own question, but it's called a plot device. DanPMK 03:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I know but... It was stupid... I though maybe Square had an better official explanation. 200.230.213.152 00:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mandy or Mena

Okay, who do you guys think is the best English voice of Aerith? Although Mena tried her best, I feel Mandy Moore is best suited for Aerith's voice.--BigMac1212 15:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)