User talk:Aditya Kabir/Archive 3

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An archive of the battles I fought with other Wikipedians


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Re Articles for Deletion - Booty

Hi - I decided to post a reply here to this discussion in AfD.

I am no authority on this, but here goes: the same Wikipedia standards certainly should apply across the board. "Whose standards"? First of all, your own (what you choose to contribute), and then, everybody else's plus your own (how the article is further edited/discussed/and so on, by you and everybody else on Wikipedia).

If an article ends up in AfD (Articles for Deletion), like Bangladesh Booty, it's because a user has decided it may contravene Wikipedia policies, and so it may require deletion. As you will have seen, lots of inappropriate articles are added to Wikipedia every day. It is not always a bad thing to be in AfD, as long as the problem can be fixed. In AfD, this process takes over (the discussion of the articles, as you have seen).

The article will stay in AfD for five days before an administrator assesses the consensus (it isn't a straight vote, it is an assessment that takes account of all the opinions expressed) and then takes action. The exception is a Speedy Keep/Delete, which doesn't take five days - but Booty has not been recommended for Speedy Delete, so it's OK.

If you want to know more about how an admin decides on consensus, you'll need to get an admin to describe their job to you, because I am not an admin, and I do not know exactly what they do either. But admins are the ones who finally "decide" whether to keep/delete articles in AfD. (They also sign the articles in AfD when kept/deleted, and so you can easily find an admin by clicking their usernames in AfD and leaving a question on their talk page - any of them will be able to answer your questions.)

Anyway - Booty is in AfD because someone decided it seemed to be an unnotable film and there was no evidence that it was notable.

To make this film verifiably notable, you must describe what is notable about it in the article - what separates it from the hundreds of other films released every week. As you have said (and I personally believe it is true), this film is somewhat notable. I am not saying it is definitely notable enough to avoid deletion, but it has a chance.

Now, the trouble is, you cannot simply state in the article "it's notable because of X and Y and Z" - you must also back up statement X with at least one quote from a verifiable source - a reputable book, or a newspaper, or a media source, etc. - but not a blog, a forum or unknown website. Bangladeshi sources are fine, so long as they are trustworthy ones. The quote will show the reader that X has also been said by someone notable. This makes X something the reader can trust. And you must back up Y, Z and so on the same way.

This is the approach Wikipedia wants, because Wikipedia does not allow original research. Original research includes people saying "X and Y and Z" in an article without any evidence to back it up. Not good, because it means people could just make up anything they liked.

So, if you can find some media sources and quotes to put into the article that back up your claims about the film - first, that the situation for Bangladeshi women in general is how you state it, second, that Bangladeshi film actresses are not treated favourably, and third, that public and/or critical reaction in Bangladesh to Booty was positive, the way you describe it in the article, then that would be very good news. You don't need to create a perfect article. No one is expecting that. You just need to show that what you say has also been said at least once somewhere by someone notable. That's all. If you do that, I think you will get a few Keeps in AfD.

If you have these sources already, but do not know how to insert them into the article, I can help with that. But sadly I cannot help with finding the sources myself. I have looked online, and I couldn't find any. But if you need help with editing them into the article, reply on the article discussion page, and I will do what I can. I am watching the article, so I will see if you post there. BTW, it's better to post there about editing the article than in AfD, because it annoys the admins to post too much discussion in AfD, and the discussion is now too long. But you can still post questions about the deletion process etc. in AfD, of course.

Finally, again re "whose standards" - it is obviously going to be harder to make a porn film seem "notable", compared to the average Christina Aguilera album, because Aguilera is already a verified notable star, whereas the average porn star - which includes Jazmin, because we have no verifiable information about her on Wikipedia - isn't. But that shouldn't discourage you from trying.

If you find the sources in the next day or two, I think the article has a chance of survival. Good luck. --DaveG12345 07:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so very much. This is what I have found to be greatest strenght of wikipaedia - the oneness of attitude. I really hope there would be someone out there who would take notice, cut through the crap and come up with solidly useful solutions. Thanks again. I think I have a direction now. (Aditya Kabir 04:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC))
No problem, good luck with the changes and remember to post a comment back at AfD when you have made changes, so that people can check out the article and maybe reconsider their position. --DaveG12345 10:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I forgot to mention - if there were users in the AfD who said Delete and you think they may reconsider their verdict based on the new version of the article, remember to leave a note and a link on their user discussion pages, politely encouraging them to go back and maybe take another look. --DaveG12345 10:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
More on the Bangladesh Booty debate
AfD discussion • User talk:Yamla • User talk:Mwhorn[1] • User talk:Snugspout • User talk:Bwithh

References

  1. ^ Revision log of Mwhorn's talk page
Jazmin DVD covers debate
User talk:Yamla 01 • User talk:Yamla 02

Sorry

I offer my sincere apologies for not getting back to you regarding the pictures. I have been dealing with a number of personal issues which have been taking most of my time and energy. As you can see from my talk page, I'm on a semi-Wikibreak right now. Please understand that it was nothing personal (though I can understand why you may have believed it to be) and I hope to find a moment to answer your well-presented questions. In the meanwhile, I am quite happy to let the pictures stand and I apologise also for not acting quickly enough to prevent their initial removal. I hope you have no hard feelings. I certainly harbour no hard feelings toward you. --Yamla 15:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:Riya Style1.jpg

This image (Image:Riya Style1.jpg) is marked for deletion. It's a film screenshot and is not being used to provide critical commentary on the film. Additionally, it is a copyrighted image and so fails WP:FUC's first criteria. Only freely-licensed images may be used to depict living people. Also, you need to provide a hand-written fair-use rationale for any use of a copyrighted image on the Wikipedia, though in this case it is irrelevant as it is being used to depict a living person, thus will always fail WP:FUC. Note that WP:FUC's wording has changed recently. What used to be accepted no longer is. --Yamla 00:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Images which are replaceable (as per WP:FUC) are not permitted to be used until replaced. --Yamla 18:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You said: "Hey dude, I have added a fair use rationale for the biopic on the article Riya Sen. Please take a look at it. And, oh, since I have removed the deletion tage from the image as advised on the tags (i.e. the tags mat be removed if provided with a fair use rational), I also have removed the line from the article page that says the image is scheduled for deletion. I also have changed the licensing information from screenshot to fair use in Riya Sen and Style (film). I also have looked for another image to be used (yes, using google), and have done so. Well I admit that it didn't vary much, if any, in source and copyright status from the earlier one. But, I think before there is a replacable picture available it may stand. Please, check and advise."

I already responded prior to this message, but just to be clear... WP:FUC prohibits the use of a fair-use image to depict a living person, so this still fails the criteria. We can't wait until a replacement image is provided, that's not sufficient grounds under WP:FUC. Additionally, this is a film screenshot so we cannot use a different license. And given that, we are not using the image to provide critical commentary on the film but rather, just to illustrate an actress. It still violates the license. I know you are working hard here and you definitely are editing in good faith, but the image still violates WP:FUC. Please feel free to ask for more detailed explanations. --Yamla 18:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(In response to your comments) They have not been noticed. There are in fact a large number of similar images currently in violation. It takes time to track them all down and tag them. WP:FUC was tightened up recently. It used to be permitted to use a fair-use (non-freely licensed) image to depict a living person (with appropriate rationale). This is no longer the case. As to what "replaceable" means, it really comes down to whether it would be reasonable for someone (not necessarily you) to create a free image. For example, you may not own a particular car but if this car is or was sold, someone else may and could take an image. You may not be able to take a free image of a living person but someone else certainly could. In both cases, the fair-use image is replaceable. --Yamla 19:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(In response to your comments) Why does 1 not apply? Is the person dead? If so, I apologise. But if the person is still alive, criteria 1 most definitely applies. "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information. [...] However, if the subject of the photograph still exists, a freely-licensed photograph could be taken." If the person is still alive, the subject of the photograph still exists and a free equivalent "could be created that would adequately give the same information" (in this case, what the person looks like) simply by having someone take a picture of her, or having her agent release a promotional image under a free license. As to having the image replaced within the time, this follows from the current image violating WP:FUC so therefore, see the non-compliance section in WP:FUC. Images that fail WP:FUC must be deleted within 48 hours or 7 days, depending. --Yamla 19:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(In response to your comments) Yes, it does. "However, if the subject of the photograph still exists, a freely-licensed photograph could be taken." A living person is a subject of the photograph that still exists. A dead person would be a subject of a photograph that no longer exists. I agree that it is not spelled out explicitly but I assure you this is how it is meant to be understood. As to your other point, that you are not using the image merely to show what she looks like, I disagree. The image is in the page's infobox and thus is definitely showing only what she looks like. If it was not in the infobox but instead was attached to a paragraph discussing that particular movie and that paragraph made specific note of what the character looked like, then it would be an example of an image not being used solely to depict the person. As of now, though, it is not attached to any such paragraph and in fact the article makes only passing reference to that movie. --Yamla 19:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cupcake

For Aditya Kabir, for remaining civil while discussing hard-to-grasp minutia
Enlarge
For Aditya Kabir, for remaining civil while discussing hard-to-grasp minutia

Here's a cupcake. I appreciate that you have remained civil in your discussions with me while we have been hashing out areas of WP:FU that have driven lesser people to distraction. --Yamla 19:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(In response to your comments) I have not tried taking a picture of any celebrity, actually, but I have worked with some celebrities and non-celebrities to get a freely-licensed image for use on the Wikipedia. None of them were Bollywood actors or actresses, however. As to the infobox, these are used to provide basic information and to depict what the person looks like. If an image is to be used to provide critical commentary on a film, it needs to be attached to a paragraph providing that critical commentary. Often, an image which was attached to a paragraph and was fair-use there is moved up to the infobox but then must subsequently be removed for exactly this reason. Some of this stuff, unfortunately, is not explicitly spelled out. Other times, we try to spell something out (criteria #1 of WP:FUC) but people understandably read it differently than was intended. And then what about a situation where, say, the person is still alive but is in hiding? They still exist so a strict reading of #1 says we cannot use a fair-use image of them. But it's not reasonable to create a replacement. Now, try to write out a clear policy that will take all of these crazy situations into account, and you can see the problems. In the end, the only way to really go about things is with discussions like this, even though they take time. And thanks for noting the other image problems. I'll try to mark at least some of them when I have a moment.--Yamla 20:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to butt into the conversation, but I think it is better to have a bad quality free-licensed image than to have a great-looking non-free image-under FU. If a person is alive, sooner or later, a photo will be available. An example is Sunil Gangopadhyay, whom I met last month during a programme, and the photos I took were uploaded to commons, to be used in various WPs. If there is no pic yet at commons, then perhaps it is better to have no pic at all. Many other ventures have gotten into trouble due to copyright problems, and we need to be extremely careful about that. My 2 cents. :) --Ragib 22:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sob Sob Cry Cry

You said: "It seems that the speed that you had in tagging Riya Sen's image I uploaded is not manifesting in addressing other images. Let me remind you of the images I posetd for you to take note:

Please, take a look, and let me know - why the image of Riya Sen from Style the movie was less of a fair use image than msot of these. Precedence is as good as law (even in the US, as far as I know), and these images set a very different precendence over the one that got the image in discussion deleted."

Some of these were not in violation. Image:ALI IBN RABBAN AL-TABARI.jpg is missing an accurate source, but presumably the painting was never protected by copyright. Image:Abdul Hamid.jpg is not replaceable as far as I can see, though it is missing a rationale for its current use. However, it was uploaded before the rationale requirement was added, so that image is okay. Similarly, Image:Abdul Rahman(convert).jpg and Image:AdamRyland.jpg. As to the non-specific images you have also listed, I am sorry to say that I am kept above capacity and am not looking for more work. If you believe these images are incorrectly tagged or are missing mandatory information, please mark them as such. Also, I direct your attention to WP:POINT. Thank you. --Yamla 21:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You said: "Thanks for the point. It stated exactly my sentiments. Thankfully I sought advice from an admin, before I did anything else. I guess, to remain on the fair side, I am going to mark pornstar images uploaded by Rglovejoy, they are mostly from Palyboy, a source that's pretty thick on copyrights. They have right to, considering the amount of infringement they face. Thanks again."

Thank you, I appreciate your efforts. --Yamla 21:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
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