From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Adem Somyurek article.
Please sign and date your posts using four tildes (~~~~). New discussion topics go at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Frequently asked questions. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Talk page guidelines Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Don't bite the newcomers!

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

This article has been automatically assessed as Stub-Class by WikiProject Biography because it uses a stub template. If you agree with the assessment, please remove {{WPBiography}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page. If you disagree with the assessment, please change it by editing the class parameter of the {{WPBiography}} template, removing {{WPBiography}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page, and removing the stub template from the article.

	Adem Somyurek is part of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-class on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Australian politics.
WikiProject Australia To-do: edit  Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Australia: The current Australian collaboration of the fortnight article is Torres Strait Islanders. Requests: Bicentennial Heritage Trail, Daintree Reef, George Adams, Insurance in Australia, Poppy Industries, Sports Rorts affair, State Orchestra of Victoria, Yarmirr v Northern Territory Attention: Aboriginal Protection Act, Australian Payments Clearing Association, Coral Sea Islands, Qantas, Peter Foster, Reg Ansett Expand: Barossa Valley, Coorong, South Australia, List of Australian military memorials, Palm Island, Queensland, Rossiter Bay Juanita Coco Stubs: Australian Racing Museum Australian women's cricket team, Barry McKenzie, Calgardup Bay, Western Australia, Mortein, Prospect Creek, Russian Jack, Yabbying, Younghusband, South Australia Images: Darwin beer-can regatta, Darwin International Airport, Dingo Fence, Driza-Bone, Eucalyptus coolabah, Esky, Four'N Twenty Pie Quality watch: 37 FA-Class Australia articles - 21 GA-Class Australia articles.

This article has been automatically assessed as Stub-Class by WikiProject Australia because it uses a stub template. If you agree with the assessment, please remove {{WP Australia}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page. If you disagree with the assessment, please change it by editing the class parameter of the {{WP Australia}} template, removing {{WP Australia}}'s auto=yes parameter from this talk page, and removing the stub template from the article.

	This article is part of WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
Stub	This article has been rated as stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

[edit] Comments

[edit] Name

He is still an MP and he is not the only Muslim MP. 165.228.129.12 04:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he spells his name with "ü" but I will check this. (Do not lecture me on how his name would be written in Turkey - he is an Australian not a Turk.) Adam 04:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't - http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/handbook/searchresult.cfm?menuid=1&memberId=1593 - Wikipedia Pedant's Society at it again mate. PMA 11:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

? He is both an Australian and a Turk, lose the orientalist attitude and stop telling other people why the Turkish spelling is "wrong". This is his correct name and voilà. What is the discussion here? I have also lived in many countries in my life, and am a tri citizen of Turkey, US and France. In my French and American passports, and in daily usage outside of Turkey, my name is written like this: "Baris Tarim". However, the correct ortograph is this, always was and always will be: "Barış Tarim". Please also see systemic bias and drop the orientalist attitude. Baristarim 11:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim, please try to calm down and assume good faith. We're all trying to do out best here. Accusing people of having a "orientalist attitude" is completely inapprorpiate. Sarah Ewart 11:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

In light of that link, I'm going to go ahead and change it all back. If that's the way he spells it, that's the way we spell it. Sarah Ewart 11:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That is only spelled in that link like that because there is no such character in English usage, and I am sure that Australian webmasters didn't think of using that character. I am assuming good faith, and that's why it surprises me that what I just wrote has been completely overlooked. There is clear systemic bias here, I am afraid. In my French and American passports, my name is also spelled without the Turkish characters because such characters are not used in the English language. However, that doesn't mean that it is spelled correctly that way. I really think that it should be moved back to its correct ortograph. You are telling me to assume good faith, however there is orientalism here alright. Sarah, that's not how he spells it, that' how the webmasters of the Australian Parliament spell it, there is a clear difference. That web-page is not his personal blog, it also includes a section "Interests: reading, football, soccer, writing.". I am sorry to say, but it is an ordinary web-site that was created haphazardly.. Baristarim 11:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim, the only relevant question here is how he spells his name. It's his name and he can spell it any way he likes. I agree that the Victorian Parliamentary website may not be an infallible guide to that, but I am pretty certain he spells it without the ü (unless he is writing in Turkish). The simplest solution is to ask him, which I will do on Monday. I trust you will accept that. Adam 12:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)If you wish to know if he has given up on using his Turkish name and rather prefers the Anglicized version of it (which would be pretty surprising actually), then pls e-mail him from the link found on the web-link above, and ask him. That's all.. Baristarim 12:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what I was suggesting but you beat me to it :)) I will also e-mail him.. Let's ask him how he prefers his name to be written and if he would prefer the anglicized version of his name rather than his native one.. But please keep in mind the example I gave you about myself: Most of the time I also don't use the correct characters of my name simply because it has become habit to do in the US and France, however what is important is what he would consider as the correct version of his name. Keep in mind that both versions will be linked to each other via redirects. Baristarim 12:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Australia is not Turkey. Australians of Turkish birth or descent use Anglicised spellings of their name, just as do Greek Australians and Vietnamese Australians. The Anglicised spellings are the official and correct spellings of their names. No doubt Petro Georgiou writes his name Πέτρο Γεώργιου when he is writing in Greek but that doesn't alter the fact that Petro Georgiou is his correct name. Adam 12:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I really hate protecting articles but Baristarim et al's behaviour is ridiculous. This is the verifiable spelling. Until someone comes up with some verifiable evidence that this is incorrect, this is where the page should be. Sarah Ewart 12:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This is flying above all your heads, isn't it? When I am in the US and FR, my name is also written without the Turkish characters, but that's not correct. The comparision with Greek and Vietnamese is completely out of place, Turkish is considered by 100 percent of linguists to be using an alphabet based on Latin script. ü is a very common letter in Europe, not just Turkey or Turkish. He is not Australian by birth, he was born in Turkey, therefore it is more than likely that he still has his Turkish passport. And one more thing is the general usage in Wikipedia: anglicization of characters and names based on the Latin script are not of common practice. Please use common sense, it is extremely offending. The Ertegün brothers article uses that character. Those are the founders of the Atlantic Records, and in many news articles they are referred to as simply "Ertegun". However this is not the correct spelling. Adem is very active in the Turkish community in Australia, so please stop pretending that he has become completely assimilated that he would prefer the anglicized version of it rather than the name he was born into in TURKEY. Sarah, there is nothing ridiculous here, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) you have never had problems with orientalism. It is extremely annoying when people tell you that how you spell your name is incorrect or etc. What verifiability? Turkish Australians refer to him as Somyürek.. Baristarim 13:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

So ask him this: What would he prefer with all other things being equal: with the ü or without. It would be extremely surprising if he prefered the anglicized version. Baristarim 13:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sarah, can you put back in his middle name that I had put in "Kubilay"? I think you also reverted that because you were reverting my other edits... I even know his middle name that none of the contributors had put in yet, and you don't believe me that his name is spelled with an ü? :)) Cheers! Baristarim 13:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I will add that right now. I don't object to spelling his name as you say and it isn't a matter of not believing you. What I meant when I said it was "ridiculous" was the fighting and warring over it. That isn't the way the Australian editors work. Or it isn't the way we like to work. Before you came, Saguamundi moved the article four times without once coming to the talk page. You guys would do much better here presenting your case on the talk pages rather than edit warring on the articles. Sarah Ewart 13:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I know he was born in Turkey, but since he is a member of an Australian parliament he is an Australian citizen. But that is neither here nor there. The only relevant consideration is how he spells his name in English, which is the official language of Australia. If he spells it Somyürek on his business cards, on his letterhead, on his office window - well and good, I will accept that. But if he spells it Somyurek, you will have to accept that. Adam 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Sarah that an edit war over this would be ridiculous. And I noticed that there was another editor who had moved it around, I agree that the debate should be on the talk page. For Adam.. I am sorry but, you also have to prove to me that he is not a Turkish citizen. The reasonable doubt is that he still is a Turkish citizen since he was born in Turkey and migrated later to Australia, and as such he had Turkish citizenship first, which in turn means that for you to claim that he is only an Australian citizen, there must be proof that he gave up his citizenship.. That's the first point..

Second point is the argument you raised about the anglicization. Your argument that Greeks and Vietnamese have their names anglicized is completely irrelevant since they belong to a differen alphabet, but Turkish uses the Latin alphabet.. Do not confuse Latinization with anglicization They are completely different things. In wikipedia, it is common practice and concensus that names in latin characters are not anglicized. For this I gave you the example of Ertegün Brothers article. They are American citizens, however the correct ortograph for their names include the "ü".

I don't know if you realize this, but it is very offending that just because in some countries some characters are not used and as a result many foreigners are obliged to modify their names in everyday usage, other people tell us that our names have been modified. What is important is not how he spells his name in English I am afraid, what is important is how he prefers to spell his name all other things being equal. I repeat, my American and French passports use "Baris Tarim", however the correct form is this: "Barış Tarim".

All the Turkish people in Australia refer to him as Somyürek. It is common knowledge that many foreigners accept (or at least don't insist to the contrary) that their names are modified for simple logistic reasons. Do you know how many hours I spent trying to argue with BOTH French and American authorities to have my name written correctly in passports, driving licenses etc?? All the time they refused citing logistic problems, computer problems, issues with printing etc. At one point u say: "oh, what the heck..."

Therefore, how he spells his name in his office window is also irrelevant, as much as the web-link to the parliament is.. The only thing that matters is how he prefers to have his name spelled all things being equal. If you suggest that his name should be modified simply because many monolingual people and institutions cannot be bothered with such stuff, that's a clear sign of bias, and if I might say so, orientalism.

He was born in Turkey, he is not some fourth-generation immigrant, and most probably he still retains his Turkish citizenship, as well as being active in the Turkish community. If you are seriously trying to convince others that he would prefer that his name be anglicized, than you are barking up the wrong tree I am afraid...

One last thing, this is not the Australian wiki, this is a worldwide encyclopedia. This guy was born a citizen of Turkey, and the fact that he is MP in Australia doesn't give anyone any right to anglicize his name. The correct version of his name is more than relevant to uninformed readers... Baristarim 17:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Just made a small proposal in the article, before seeing the length of discussion this had gone through here. Feel free to revert me if you find it unhelpful. No strong opinion on my side either way. -- Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim, of course, I know this isn't the Australian Wiki (and equally it isn't the Turkish or Azer WIki). I was just trying to tell you that these articles are heavily edited and maintained by Australians and that the best way to deal with this is to discuss it with us and calmly explain your POV, not try to force it on us by shouting at us, lecturing and ridiculing us, edit warring, trying to enforce your own version and creating POV forks (as Saguamundi did). You said that it doesn't "give [us the] right to anglicize his name". We know this and we do not wish to anglicise his name. We just want this article to be correct and accurate and if that turns out to be changing the spelling, then I'll be the first to support doing so.
Also, Baristarim, I think you might be heading for policy issues. Wikipedia functions on a foundation policy of verifiability. We report what we can verify. The policy even says that "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." You seem to be totally in the realm of original research and even mind reading. Adam works for an Australian politician who is a member of the same party as Adem and I am happy to let him investigate next week and change the name if appropriate, but I think you need to be very careful and understand that verifiability is a foundation policy here. Regardless of whether you think something is right or not. You need to be able to produce verifiable evidence. This has nothing to do with whether we believe you and it certainly has nothing to do with us trying to enforce different spelling on Adem for any of the reasons you suggested. We are trying to report what is verifiable and currently that is that he writes his name "Somyurek".
I personally couldn't care less one way or the other. I just care about writing what is accurate. Heck, Grützner is one of my family names and I find the innuendo, suggestions and accusations that have been flying around highly offensive.
I reverted Fut's removal of his insertion of the Turkish name because I thought that would be a reasonable compromise for the time being. I hope you concur. Sarah Ewart 18:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. In fact the current edition would be acceptable as well I suppose. I apologize if I might have seemed a bit aggressive, but the problem is that I run across this so many times both in Wiki and the real world that, maybe it spilled over a little bit, sadly.. :)

I am really not interested in edit-warring or the like on this. I don't know what the other user did actually, I came across this from interwikis from the Turkish diaspora article.. I totally agree that verifiability is what counts, all I was trying to explain was some inherent systemic bias issues, even though they were not completely relevant. However, as I said, even the actual version seems good.

If you thought that I was trying to ridicule someone, I apologize since that wasn't my intention. It is just that, sometimes it is hard being a foreigner trying to get through over such stuff. Oh well..

I am definitely cool with the response that Adam will bring.. Adam, if you have the opportunity, just ask him how he would prefer his name to be written, all other things being equal. Is it true that someone actually created a FORK for this?? :)) Baristarim 19:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that everyone ought to restrain themselves until I have a chance to ask Adem Somyurek how he spells his name in English. I quite understand where Baristarim is coming from, but I do object to his automatic assumption that my questioning of the spelling of Somyurek arises from "orientalism." I have been to Turkey, I have read Turkish history, and I have the highest respect for the Turkish people, not to mention that I know many Turks here in Melbourne and in the Labor Party. And of course Turks regularly assure me that Turkey is a western country not an "oriental" one. Finally, Vietnamese is also written in the Latin alphabet, but Vietnamese Australians always drop the Vietnamese diacriticals when they write their names in English. And Greek and Russian women drop the feminine forms of their surnames, odd though this must sound to them in Greek and Russian. Adam 00:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The phone in Somyurek's office is not being answered. He may be moving offices following the election or it may be that state MPs' offices are closed until the results of the election are fomally announced. Adam 00:23, 12 December 2006 (UTC)