Talk:Abraham Lincoln/archive3

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Insufficient/misleading info re: Maryland and the secession issue 2 Evil Lincoln 3 talk page restored after innocent mistake by user 4 Lincoln Death Photo, Part 2 4.1 Abraham Lincoln death "photo" proven at least not to be a fraud. 4.2 The "care and deliberation of a lifetime" by Ostendorf is now to be made into a lie?, Like hell it is! 5 "Neoconfederate attacks"?

Insufficient/misleading info re: Maryland and the secession issue

In the War Begins: 1861-1862 section, the last sentence, esp. "Lincoln urgently negotiated with state leaders...", needs to be expounded upon in regards to the plight of the Old Line state. Although Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeus corpus is briefly referenced elsewhere in the article, readers should know that Maryland never actually voted on an act of secession because, on Sep. 17th, 1861, by order of the president, state legislators who were suspected of harboring pro-southern allegiances were arrested. We're not talking about a small number of delegates either. As Eric Mills points out, "Thirty-one members in all were arrested, many of them already in Frederick for the opening of the legislative session. There would be no vote of secession - nor even talk of secession, for that matter - at this stripped down gathering" (Mills 87). In addition to the legislators, the mayor of Baltimore, the chief of police, and the entire board of police commissioners of the city were also arrested. Based on these facts, the Lincoln article needs to reflect that Maryland, due to the president's actions, was not given a chance to decide on its own whether to remain in or leave the Union.

Mills, Eric (1996). Chesapeake Bay in the Civil War (1st ed.). Centreville, MD: Tidewater. ISBN 0-87033-479-4. Jcpaco 21:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The traitors can thank Lincoln they were not hung. Rjensen 20:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless -- maybe this is more appropriate for the Civil War article? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice NPOV there, rjensen. Not that it's germane to this discussion, but i wonder if you would have said the same thing about the Founding Fathers? What is germane is that the article uses the phrase "(Lincoln) negotiated with state leaders" to not secede. That is *highly* misleading, given the facts. Jcpaco 19:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Lincoln had very extensive negotiations with Virginia, MD, Kent etc leaders before April 16. But when folks in Baltimore burned the bridges and attacked Mass troops he put the ringleaders in jail. None were executed. Rjensen 20:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not interested in debating whether or not Lincoln's action towards Maryland's legislators was justified, only that the arrests did occur. Consequently, there was no vote on secession (as there was in every other state listed in the statement I referenced above, even Delaware). Again, here's my issue: as written, the statement in question insinuates that Maryland decided on its own to not secede, and that Lincoln's "negotiations" with state leaders regarding slavery played a part. It fails to acknowledge that Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeas corpus in the state (an unprecedented measure for a president to take) combined with Federal occupation insured that Maryland would not secede. My recommendation would be to separate Maryland from the rest of the states mentioned, and briefly and succintly make light of these points. The fate of Maryland, afterall, was a critical issue Lincoln dealt with.

And, for the record, the only "negotiations" or discussions between state officials and Lincoln occurred in the wake of the attack on the 6th Mass. regiment (Apr. 19th). Officials asked that no more Federal troops be sent through Baltimore. Lincoln responded, "I make no point of bringing them through Baltimore...by this, a collision of the people of Baltimore will be avoided, unless they go out of their way to seek it" (Ruffner 36). Annapolis was seized by Federal forces three days later; Baltimore was seized on May 13th and martial law declared. By the time of the Sep. legislative meeting in Frederick, much of the state was under Federal control.

Ruffner, Kevin Conley (1997). Maryland's Blue and Gray. Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State UP. ISBN 0-8071-2135-5. Jcpaco 23:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

As General Butler said to Hicks when he landed at Annapolis, if Maryland wants to be hostile he was prepared to shoot. Butler did arrest hundreds of Marylanders who were loyal to the a foreign country at war with the US. He might well have hung 500 of them in downtown Baltimore as a demonstration, but Lincoln cooled him down. Maryland did not secede--everyone agrees. (When the legislature did meet it did NOT vote secession.) Therefore people who supported an enemy country on the verge of invasion are what are called traitors. There's a war going on folks, so the surpise is that Lincoln let so many people go home after a couple months. Rjensen 23:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

That's why Lincoln deserves the Secular Temple we built to honor him and the things he stood for and that's why he deserves a special day (with Washington again) to honor him alone for what he did to preserve this nation as One. God to think how history may have been different had a much weaker and smaller United States been the case during WWII. Thank You Mr. President. --Northmeister 02:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"Maryland did not secede--everyone agrees. (When the legislature did meet it did NOT vote secession.)" Yes, because as I have shown, 31 legislators, a significant percentage of the body in whole (only 53 House delegates were present at the special session in Frederick), were arrested before a possible vote took place. You seem only concerned with making a case for justifiability and have not directly addressed the point I am making. The fact is that, without Lincoln's actions, Maryland *would* have voted on an act of seccession. That vote may or may not have carried, we'll never know...but, for the third time, my issue is that the statement/section is misleading in regards to Maryland, and fails to mention the unprecedented steps Lincoln took to insure the state remained in the Union. Jcpaco 07:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki is an encyclopedia of things that actually happened. It doesn't try to cover events that might have happened if lots of things had been different. The article makes clear that Lincoln kept Maryland in the Union. Lincoln's actions were not the least bit unusual: in a rebellion you lock up the rebels or shoot them. He merely locked them up. They were not "unprecedented" (see 1775-1783). Rjensen 07:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I had not reviewed the article since before my last submission, and did not see the changes made until just now. I agree that it is now more clear, and I will cease debating this issue.Jcpaco 07:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Whether the arrests were justified or not is certainly a matter of opinion. The fact that the arrests were made doesn't seem to be disputed so I don't see why it wouldn't be included in Wikipedia, the encyclopedia of things that actually happened. Ringzero 03:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not people agree with the arrests or not, it was an incredibally controversial issue for the day (and remains so to this day) and there should at least be a section in this article on criticisms of Lincoln so someone reading this article who isn't a history buff knows that there WERE an incredible amount of criticisms and controversy surrounding Lincoln, his terms in office, and his legacy. -R.L.

Evil Lincoln

Tell me about Evil Lincoln. I know he exist. MegaloManiac 17:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Lincoln was for slaves. In one of his speeches, he even calls them an inferior race worth exploiting.

talk page restored after innocent mistake by user

I've restored the talk page you deleted. Please edit more carefully. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• I shall, but please do not say "cathytreks latest" , as i am paraniod enough around here at times, with attacks from anywhere, so instead of what might be misconstrued by me as smiting and insulting, why not try a little loving & kind beratement instead?

(Cathytreks 22:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC))

• Was it not you? Was it not your latest edits? Don't read more into it than is there; no insult was intended. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• I meant no harm, please take no offense...honest abe!

(Cathytreks 22:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC))

• I don't think you did, but it needed to be cleaned up; looks like you've got your new stuff in there just fine. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed, and thanks for taking the time to show me my error, "cheese and crackers!, what a dumb thing I did."  :-)

(Cathytreks 23:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC))

Lincoln Death Photo, Part 2

Abraham Lincoln death "photo" proven at least not to be a fraud.

Photograph.....or well done engraving?

Abraham Lincoln ..."the day after he was murdered.."

Source: From the private collection of the Bachelder family, If authentic, this "Lincoln in Death" Photograph or engraving is over 140 years old, it is believed the *photograph was taken through his shroud, or a veil out of respect yet still alowing the photographer John B. Bachelder to get his work done in a respectful and dignified fashion, it was actually a common practice of the day, when death photo's of famous and family were far more a common place event than they are today.

In the book by Osendorf he claimed the photograph of Lincoln taken by John B. Bachelder the noted photographer, artist and engraver in Washington D.C. was taken in the White House within 24 hours after Lincolns body had been taken there, this photograph has been taken by many as authentic, and by the entire Bachelder family within a day of Lincolns assasination and their relative John B. Bachelder, re: Lloyd Ostendorf's book Lincoln's Photographs: A Complete Album" photograph # "0-130")

From the book: "The reverse of this photograph of Lincoln in death bears the inscription: "Lincoln photograph taken by Uncle Bachelder after Lincoln died. "The life-like quality and photographic perspective is evident in the image even thought [sic] some retouching has been applied. The exposure was evidently taken under poor lighting conditions and under difficult circumstances; the task was obviously undertaken in purposeful secrecy."

The facing page reads: "A post-mortem portrait..."An extremely rare carte-de-viste discovered in the estate of artist and engraver John B. Bachelder. "The heretofore unpublished photograph of Abraham Lincoln seen at the right was taken on approximately April 16, 1865, after the President's death. Apparently, it was to serve as a model for the death-bed scene produced by Bachelder in collaboration with Alonzo Chap-pel."

Whether it's a etching of a photograph of Lincoln or third generation copy of a photograph is not yet known with absolute certainty, but the likeness to the deceased President Lincoln is uncanny in its resemblence!

That truth cannot be denied!...

Bachelder was either the greatest engraver of all time or one of the worst photographers it seems!

Look to the photo's honest portrayal of him, there without a doubt is that the true face of Abraham Lincoln, seemingly was only ever "captured" really well in a photograph......... ... and while there isn't a painting in the world that gets his "look" so to speak.."just right" as a photograph did for one reason or another, this fact supports the genuineness of the "photo" in question even more.

(Fore~instance...Think of how similiar Mathew Brady's incredible sittings with Lincoln for instance, conveying the same true face many times in lucky and many moments of time, captured in photographs by him.)

Yes, The serine sadness in his face there,...sadly it is real, it is he, Lincoln, and b.t.w. it is and was not placed here out of morbid interest or fraud, it is here now asking for a new plea on it, for truth, justice and the American way!

• Bachelder was both the present artist in the death room at the White House as well as one of three photographers present with Lincoln in the room on April 16th 1865 day, as President Lincoln was being embalmed, dressed, and made prepared for his long ride back to Springfield.

• ... That he (Bachelder) knew the man Lincoln's face, even in death is so hauntingly plain to see!, That he did this picture and did it well....he knew his subject, just how can that simple truth ever be denied, whatever one will say to the contrary. My proof's are both logical, and encyclopedic and so are "gut" feelings....used and recognised by Law Enforcement agency's with high regard!

Truth is truth...however one arrives at it.

(Cathytreks 15:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)) _________

• Thing is, it doesn't matter how we feel. It doesn't matter what our opinions are. It doesn't matter how much we love the memory of Lincoln. It doesn't matter how realistic we think the picture is. It doesn't matter how heartfelt your pleadings are. It also doesn't matter how much research you've done. All it would take is for you to cite a single reliable source attesting to the legitimacy of that photograph -- or a good scholarly debate about the legitimacy of the photograph -- to justify putting it into the article. That's what people were telling you weeks ago. (I have no truck with the insulting nature of how some of them were talking to you, just as I have no truck with you ascribing evil to those who disagree with you.) Everything that goes into Wikipedia has to be verifiable and cannot be original research. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

---

What I have offered up is both verifiable and was others professional research on the most complete book of Lincoln Photographs ever published.

 *"Lincoln in Photographs an Album of Every Known Pose" 
Authors: Lloyd Ostendorf and Charles Hamilton,  ISBN 089029-087-3, Publisher Morningside House Inc 1997.  The book lists and depicts every known Lincoln photo with interesting historical information using the Ostendorf and Meserve catalog numbering system. 

The photographic reproductions are high quality, and include the rare death photo. The wonderful content and organization of the book makes its an essential part of any Lincoln collection as a research tool. Any Lincoln photograph ordered from any source will require reference to the Meserve or Ostendorf catalog numbers and this book is the only available source for this information. The book is still available from Morningside House Publishing,

(morningsidebooks.com) 260 Oak St. Dayton Ohio, 937-461-6736. Morningside specializes in civil war era reprints and recent books about the civil war and has a fascinating catalog.

There is the proof you seek, Lincoln Scholars, if proof it is that you seek!

(Cathytreks 15:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC))

• Proof? It's the same single source you've been quoting all along (which, incidentally, has the wrong ISBN; morningsidebooks.com seems to have made a mistake in their catalog.) I wish I could find something to verify this claim: O-130, thought to be a clandestine postmortem, has since been convincingly debunked by Harold Holzer (the quote shows up on a couple of ads selling the book.) Could someone with library access maybe do some journal searches? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆

___________________

The "care and deliberation of a lifetime" by Ostendorf is now to be made into a lie?, Like hell it is!

Harold Holzer is a well known Lincoln Scholar yes, but has been accused by some Lincoln Researchers as being both a liar, and a perjurer about the Bachelder "Lincoln Death Photo" for reasons unknown.

The question should be, why would THAT be so?,

Why is it that Holzer to this day, ignoring so much of the scholarly research regarding the Bachelder family's Storys, Photograph's and Accounts of the incidents surounding it?

So many papers and thing's taken in their own words, and pen by hand, and the photographs , some of which the three originals are now missing, which were all put together by Ostendorf, with the exstreme care and deliberation and love of a lifetime, his honesty shows.

Whether there was a personal enmity or not out of jealousy on the part of Harold Holzer towards Orstendorf and his amazing find perhaps, If Holzer (hypotheticaly of course) is lying about the entire matter on all key points, sadly the world may never know!, for its hard for the dead man, Ostendorf to defend himself today, and the sources and means he used to prove the validity of his research, but others are hard at work even as we yabber on about it right now. (Cathytreks 18:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC))

btw, the book by Orstendorf is easy to find by anyone, just look~it folks!

[[1]]

"All the poses of Lincoln and his family and realitives, close friends, and associates. A book to cherish. 437 pp., 8 x 10, cloth-hardcover, dj. REVISED-1998 Book Number: #1471BB New ISBN #:0890290873 Stock:-6"

"This volume represents the work of a lifetime spent collecting and assembling all the photographs of Abraham Lincoln. This is the definitive work derived from the most complete extant collection--the finest possible photographic portrayal of the Great Emancipator. This edition features all of the stereoscopic photos arranged in their proper relationships for the first time, revealing Lincoln in three-dimensional lifelike quality."

There ya go! don't be afraid of finding and reading and seeing the truth for yourselves, whatever your conclusions may be!

(Cathytreks 18:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC))

Hey There gang! ...Don't forget to write Sir Harold Holzer, about all this!

I did!

http://www.haroldholzer.com

haroldholzer@haroldholzer.com

• So which scholarly sources accept this as what you claim it to be? Please stop trying to proselytize (you may assume that the majority of the editors here have an extremely high respect for Abraham Lincoln) and just provide us with the reliable, verifiable sources that we've been asking for. We know full well that the book you are citing contains this picture; you've told us about it repeatedly. You don't need to do so any more, and you're damaging your own case. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

________________

Bull... Your one of those whos stiffel's the truth.

Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil, eh!? Sure..sure! lets all just pretend and go along with whatever ..."the authoritys".. say....and go along with the masses and avoid the truth!?

"Question Authority"...ever hear of that Jpgordon?, and in THIS case especially so...I know Holzer is lying about the matter about the Lincoln Photograph for a fact!

He doesnt even have the courage to come here and show his "proofs" to show that it is faked in any way, because there arent any.

This photograph and its history are well documented facts, and Holzer, and your saying otherwise does not change that fact.

Even "exsperts" can get it wrong sometimes...and "they" sure did here!

Fore the Lincoln death photograph has true lineage to it traced back with documents about it directly from the John B Bachelder family, and can be viewed for scholarly purposes, just write and ask them..this whole thing is insane because it is a well documented photograph and there should be no question on it from anybody!!! ..this is unfair and hides a very important missing piece at the end of Lincoln's story!

Are you really so unopen to it?....and blind that you cannot see the picture as real as it clearly is....someone must need glasses.

(Cathytreks 14:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

This article seems a bit lacking... more details maybe? _______

Hi there, you want more details? you just posted your question as I was replying to Jpgordon and his taunt's up there, who taunts and rags on those who upset the apple~cart of history, yes, there are many more proofs on the genuineness of the photograph, please just click on the lincoln photo above itself for the true and detailed story of how it really came to be!

(Cathytreks 14:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC))

• So which scholarly sources accept this as what you claim it to be? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• The Bachelder-Badger family decendants, who have graciously allowed me to copy a copy... of the image, (which is what you see!), and in glass cases in their foyer, opposite the entrance are the actual the actual albumum photographs, also sketchings J B. Bachelder drew from his own photo of Lincolns corpse's face.

• I maintain the John B. Bachelder gravesite, in Nottingham N.H. where he and his wife were buried, (I was there clearing brush and cleaning his large stone just yesterday!) and take all of this very seriously as to some if I ever gave up this could make Bachelders photograph and its story a lie!, I could not live, knowing that, I would probably kill myself, out of grief!..for the so called "exsperts" wrong judgment on the matter.

• I challenge you to prove what I have said otherwise, but I speak for Bachelder and his ghost, Lincolns, and thier familys honour now.

• Ilk such as those who doubt THE TRUTH of my words, have driven me to passion on this matter.

• I am a friend now with the Bachelder-Badger familys, since I started this campain to have the truth revealed!~

I cannot and will not back down on a matter as important as this is to me and the masses yet to be, when I know I am right. I will never give up on the truth of the photograph by Bachelder to the last day of eternity! (Cathytreks 15:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC))

"Neoconfederate attacks"?

The link to "Criticisms of Lincoln's Presidency" was altered to "Neoconfederate Attacks." This aspersion is unscholarly and unacceptable in the context of an encyclopedia article. First, many of the writers who challenge Lincoln's presidency are not affiliated with any neo-Confederate groups. Secondly, the derisive retitling of the link is an obvious attempt to cast a shadow of doubt on the academic legitimacy of those who don't agree wholeheartedly with all aspects of Lincoln's agenda.

So much for "freedom of speech." (Chuckicks 10:17, 7 May 2006 (EST)

Origin of Honest Abe Honest Abe, Abraham's nickname was from his days as a wrestler. One many sites, such as 'http://www.biogs.com/famous/lincoln.html' it states that he was a wrestler. Further information, however can be found in 'the History of Professional Wrestling' and in a exhibition somewhere in a American museum. If I recall orrectly, it was Cleveland.211.28.125.161 21:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)