Talk:Abortion/To-do items

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

[edit] Clarrify the percentages?

Abortion rates by country
Country Number of abortions (year) Percentage of population (%)
Australia 84,460 (2003, estimated) [6] 0.43% [7]
Canada 105,154 (2002) [8] 0.33% [9]
Denmark 15,567 (2003) [10] 0.29% [11]
France 203,300 (2003) [12] 0.34% [13]
Germany 129,650 (2004) [14] 0.16% [15]
Japan 301,673 (2004) [16] 0.24% [17]
New Zealand 18,211 (2004) [18] 0.45% [19]
Norway 14,071 (2004) [20] 0.31% [21]
South Africa 53,967 (2001) [22] 0.12% [23]
Sweden 34,454 (2004) [24] 0.38% [25]
United Kingdom 197,863 (2004) [26] [27] 0.33% [28]
United States 1,293,000 (2002, estimated) [29] 0.44%

with the percentages given in this table (i know it isnt pasted very well but.. i have no idea how to edit well..), are they worked out as percentage of the nations population? Or is it a percentage of women who had abortions out of the total number of women who had abortions in the nation? Or is it the number of aborted babies as a percentage of the number of babies not aborted each yera in the nation? Forgive me if this is the stupidest question ever, but im not really sure which way to interprate the table.

(put data in a table) I believe it's abortions/population. However, yes, it's not very meaningful presented this way and the best way would be to present abortions/pregnancies (in other words, the percent of pregnancies that end in abortion) -- it could be broken out by elective and spontaneous as well. Anyone know if this data is available? -Quasipalm 18:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree the above listed format is quite hard to understand and is also slightly misleading because it is saying at least two things at once: 1) how common abortions are per capita and 2) what age bracket most citizens fall within. My point being that countries which have proportionally very old or very young populations (i.e. where a significant amount of the population are either older or younger than the typical child-bearing ages) are going to have results skewed downwards over countries with a high proportion of citizens in the typical child-bearing age range of say 18 - 40, who are obviously going to have more pregnancies and therefor more abortions per capita.
The graph also doesn't state how it handles cross-border abortions, for example the national abortion rate in the UK is known to be raised due to Irish citizens travelling to the UK for abortions due to its illegality in Ireland and the graph doesn't state whether or not it includes such cases. Canderra 19:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


This statistic is more useful than just giving the total population, but perhaps a better table would have both the percentage of all pregnancies that end in abortion and this as a percentage of women of childbearing age, usually taken as 15-44. If this information is available it would make a much more useful comparison. I'll search around, and would urge anyone who knows of such statistics to post links to allow others or you to find the information. Spaully 00:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Had a look at the information for the UK from 2003 abortion stats, and National Statistics population material.

For 2003 (closest year with complete info):

Abortions per woman of child bearing age (15-44): 17.5 per 1,000

Women in that group: 12,371,000

Percentage of total conceptions: 22.5%

(Unfortunately these statistics are not wholly accurate, presumably the abortion rate is the main factor in this - using these figures you calculate 216,000 abortions, where only 181,600 were performed.) I still feel however that this sort of information would be more useful. Spaully 00:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[1] <-- Table 2 here is a good example of better statistics that could be shown - note 'Rate' = abortions per 1000 women 15-44; 'Ratio' = percentage of pregnancies aborted; 'Total abortion rate' = averange number of abortions per woman per lifetime. Spaully 00:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the currency of abortion statistics varies from country to country, which makes our job a lot harder, requiring us to find the national population for each year in question. Try finding a male-female breakdown for each relevant year and it's even harder. Nevermind finding an even more accurate population breakdown of females aged 15-44. This is what Google, a calculator, and rate calculation for dummies can accomplish (population is total female population):

Country Number of abortions (year) Female population (year) Incidence per 1000
Australia 84,460 (2003, estimated) [2] 10,009,827 (2003) [3] 8.43
Canada 105,154 (2002) [4] 15,834,015 (2002) [5] 6.64
Denmark 15,567 (2003) [6] 2,721,084 (2003) [7] 5.72
France 203,300 (2003) [8] 30,788,805 (2003) [9] 6.60
Germany 129,650 (2004) [10] 42,147,000 (2004) [11] 3.07
Japan 301,673 (2004) [12] n/a n/a
New Zealand 18,211 (2004) [13] 2,064,700 (2004) [14] 8.82
Norway 14,071 (2004) [15] 2,322,293 (2004) [16] 6.05
South Africa 53,967 (2001) [17] 23,121,651 (2001) [18] 2.33
Sweden 34,454 (2004) [19] 4,545,081 (2004) [20] 7.58
United Kingdom 197,863 (2004) [21] [22] 30,563,000 (2004) [23] 6.57
United States 1,293,000 (2002, estimated) [24] 146,708,000 (2002) [25] 8.81

It's wrong, wrong, wrong, due to the lack of refinements for reproductive age and my absolutely abominable math. It was, essentially, just a test to try out a new table format, but it's better here than rotting on my test page. Anyone with better sources or a better head for numbers is invited to build upon it. BTW, the source link for Japan's population is dead, which is why there is no information. -Kyd 01:56, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Country Number of abortions (year) Percentage of population (%)
Australia 84,460 (2003, estimated) [26] 0.43% [27]
Canada 105,154 (2002) [28] 0.33% [29]
Denmark 15,567 (2003) [30] 0.29% [31]
France 203,300 (2003) [32] 0.34% [33]
Germany 129,650 (2004) [34] 0.16% [35]
Japan 301,673 (2004) [36] 0.24% [37]
New Zealand 18,211 (2004) [38] 0.45% [39]
Norway 14,071 (2004) [40] 0.31% [41]
South Africa 53,967 (2001) [42] 0.12% [43]
Sweden 34,454 (2004) [44] 0.38% [45]
United Kingdom 197,863 (2004) [46] [47] 0.33% [48]
United States 1,293,000 (2002, estimated) [49] 0.44% [50]

Moving this in from the main article. Let's try to fix it. -Kyd 01:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of references used in table

  1. ↑  Chan, Annabelle & Sage, Leonie C. (2005). Estimating Australia’s abortion rates 1985–2003 Electronic version. Medical Journal of Australia, 182 (9),447-52. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  2. ↑  Australian Bureau of Statistics. (2003-02-18). Population, Australian States and Territories - Electronic delivery, Sep 2002. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  3. ↑  Statistics Canada. (2005-02-11). Induced abortions. The Daily. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  4. ↑  Statistics Canada. (2003-12-18). Demographic statistics. The Daily. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  5. ↑  Dansmark Statistik. (2004-11-25). Legal abortions by region (counties) and age. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  6. ↑  Statistics Denmark. (2005-02-01). Population 1st January. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  7. ↑  Vilain, Annick. Ministry for Employment, Social Cohesion and Housing. (2005, October). Les interruptions volontaires de grossesse en 2003. Études et Résultats, 431. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  8. ↑  National Institute for Demographic Studies. (n.d.) Total population of France 1st January 2004. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  9. ↑  Federal Statistical Office Germany. (2005-03-09). Abortions in Germany, 1999 to 2004, by the Land of the place of residence and ratio per 1 000 births. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  10. ↑  Federal Statistical Office Germany. (2006-01-24). Population, by sex and citizenship. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  11. ↑  "Abortions (1984-2004)." (2005). Retrieved 2006-01-17 from Web Japan.
  12. ↑  Statistics Bureau. (2004). Current Population Estimates as of October 1, 2004. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  13. ↑  Ewing, Ian. Statistics New Zealand. (2005-06-15). Abortions (Year ended December 2004). Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  14. ↑  Statistics New Zealand. (2005-05-15). Demographic Trends 2004. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  15. ↑  Statistics Norway. (2005-06-08). Induced abortions, by woman's county of residence, 1980-2004. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  16. ↑  Statistics Norway. (2005). Population by age, sex, marital status and foreign citizenship. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  17. ↑  Health Systems Trust. (n.d.) TOPs (Terminations of Pregnancy). Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  18. ↑  Statistics South Africa. (2001-07-02). Mid-year estimates 2001. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  19. ↑  Nilsson, Emma & Ollars, Birgitta. The National Board of Health and Welfare. (2005, May). Aborter 2004. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  20. ↑  Statistics Sweden. (2006-01-13). Preliminary population statistics per month, 2003-2005. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  21. ↑  Government Statistical Service for the Department of Health. (2005-07-27). Abortion statistics, England and Wales: 2004. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  22. ↑  ISD Scotland. (2005-05-24). Number of abortions performed in Scotland. Retrieved 2006-01-17.
  23. ↑  National Statistics. (2005-08-25). Population Estimates: UK population approaches 60 million. Retrieved 2006-01-28.
  24. ↑  Finer, Lawrence B. & Henshaw, Stanley K. The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (2005-05-18). Estimates of U.S. Abortion Incidence in 2001 and 2002. Retrieved January 17, 2006.
  25. ↑  U.S. Census Bureau. (2006-01-04). Statistical Abstract of the United States. Retrieved 2006-01-28.

[edit] Compulsory abortion

Draft version of the "Compulsory & coerced abortion" section which would be slotted under "Social issues." Anyone have any suggestions or additional information? -Kyd 04:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Draft (feel free to edit, but please place comments in the comment section):
Many external influences, including religious doctrine, government policies, and familial or spousal pressure can be brought to bear in individual reproductive health matters. In extreme cases, this can result in women being forced or coerced into undergoing abortion, sterilization, or pregnancy against their wishes.
Disabled women have, at times, been subjected to compulsory sterilization and abortion. [51] Studies have also indicated that women with disabilities are more likely to be advised to terminate their pregnancies than women without. [52]
The 1994 Platform for Action, adopted at the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women held in Beijing, China, condemns both "forced pregnancy and forced abortion" as violations of human rights. [53]
Nonetheless, reports of coerced abortion and sterilization have arisen in China. [54] A former administrator of a Chinese family-planning office in Fujian province produced evidence said to document such practices before the U.S. House Committee on International Relations in 1998. [55] [56] It was reported in 2005, however, that action had been taken against health workers accused of performing coerced operations in Linyi, Shandong. [57]

Comments:

  • I think it would be more accurate to either eliminate the government sentance completely or rewrite it completely to include religion, wars, and even spouse level control. I'm OK with the 2nd sentance by itself. That's really the main point, isn't it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pro-Lick (talk • contribs) 04:51, 16 March 2006.
Are there any religions that force abortion or sterilisation? And wars are a situational pressure, as opposed to an individual or organizational pressure. Spousal interference would probably fit better under the paragraph of societal pressure, in the incidence section.DonaNobisPacem 05:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
All reproductive decisions, including abortion, pregnancy, and sterilization, can be made involuntary. There are religions which prescribe the continuance of unwanted pregnancy, and, thus, the preface fairly should discuss it as a "reproductive influence" — although it may not play a role in forced abortion and sterilization. I also avoided discussing spousally-pressured abortions as a form of coerced abortion. -Kyd 05:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Spousally-pressured (or family- or boyfriend-pressured, as well) would fall into the same category, and I imagine comprise a significant number of "coerced abotions" - what is the reasoning for avoiding discussion of it?DonaNobisPacem 07:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC) - I've inserted at least one example below
  • [58] case of Felicia Bautista, pressured by her boyfriend into going to an abortion facility
Mostly because I didn't want to cast my net too wide. I draw a distinct line between abortions which are pressured and those that are coerced/compulsory. If one's friend/relative/spouse/S.O. is saying, "Have an abortion," she can still refuse, so long as the government doesn't force the abortion hand either way. I would think it improper to lump these abortions into the mold of "coerced/compulsory" abortion, and, thus, it would be better to discuss them in Incidence, where motivating factors for abortion are discussed. On the other hand, if they're saying, "Have an abortion, or I'll somehow make you regret it," it's not that different from those accusations of local Chinese governments jailing family members and demolishing houses. Let's await further editorial input before making any judgment calls. The "Compulsory" draft is still in an early stage and nothing is sealed. -Kyd 14:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps importantly as well - physicians can coerce patients into abortions as well.......DonaNobisPacem 07:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's a reference for religion forced birth. Not sure if there's a case with abortion. Searching....--Pro-Lick 05:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I actually found that source in my searches. Thanks for the reminder. I'm thinking of using it for making some additions to the History of abortion article. -Kyd 05:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I checked the source - it states the Catholic Church did not support abortion - which is NOT the same as saying it forced birth. Yes, they tried to limit access to abortion, but that does not mean that many women who did not want a child did not seek out one anyways. If we're talking about forced birth, you need a reference to indicate someone was forced to have a child against their will (which probably happened/happens - I'm just saying this is not one such source), not that an institution prohibited abortion on moral grounds.DonaNobisPacem 07:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I also want to note that I wasn't accepting the source as establishing forced birth. I thanked the user for reminding me of a source (I'd lost the bookmark) which I intended to use to help make changes to History of abortion. -Kyd 14:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
  • A more vague reference to religion undermining government control, "The parenthood program [in Czechoslovakia] also faces the influence of the Catholic Church which would like to abolish sex education."--Pro-Lick 05:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

In the future, please place comments outside of the preview text, as it is confusing otherwise. Also, please remember to sign your comments with four tildes, ~~~~ Thanks. -Kyd 05:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's a question: should we include discussion of examples of compulsory pregnancy along with those of compulsory abortion? Romania immediately springs to mind. -Kyd 06:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If another article covers that, mentioning it and linking to the article(s) that discuss it more fully seems OK.--Pro-Lick 06:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I would think that it would be more appropriate at | Birth Control, Christian views on contraception, or some such article - this article is huge (and controversial) enough without having to delve into side issues.........DonaNobisPacem 07:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And forced pregnancy was explained as being a result of rape, IIRC. ____G_o_o_d____ 14:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, G&E. The above is a work-in-progress draft. If you want to add comments, place them in the succession of comments here, as it's confusing. Otherwise, feel free to edit the draft, although if the changes are substantial, I'd recommend creating a seperate section for your version.
With regards to your concern, the relevant quotation from the PfA is as follows:
"Grave violations of the human rights of women occur, particularly in times of armed conflict, and include murder, torture, systematic rape, forced pregnancy and forced abortion, in particular under policies of ethnic cleansing."
-Severa | !!! 16:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../a/b/o/Talk%7EAbortion_To-do_items_253d.html"