Talk:Abolitionism

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[edit] Page Name

Should this article be called Abolitionism? (Or, should it be more specifically re: slavery?) --Brion VIBBER

Probably. Please move it!user:sjc

Should also be disambiguated (slavery) in case we need to deal with other forms of the abolitionism (I can think of several). user:sjc

I'm willing to consider the slavery issue the main use of the term for now, with a disambiguation block at the top for death penalty, nukes, etc. Feel free to convince me otherwise. --Brion VIBBER
I agree that this disambiguation is needed. --Daniel C. Boyer

Actually, if you'll look at the What links here] page, you'll see that most of the references are to Abolitionist in the 19th century American sense of "abolition" of slavery. Maybe just fix the REDIRECT. Ed Poor

Sorry, I got frisky and removed the redirect already. Ed Poor

Seems that abolitionism and abolitionist are 90% identical. I suggest a merge, with one redirecting to the other. --Ed Poor

We still have the abolition of slavery page to deal with. Abolition may be needed for disambiguation (or is it?). rmhermen 08:11 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)

Thanks for the fix, Andre. It makes sense for the -ist people to redirect to the -ism idea. Same as Communist redirecting to communism. --Ed Poor

"Abolition of slavery" is a broader topic than "abolitionism", and there is much on that topic that is not here. This page does not mention the act of Parliament of 1772 (if I recall correctly) that abolished slavery in England while allowing English companies headquartered in England to continue trading slaves in other countries, nor the subsequent lawsuit over the question of whether that law applied also to Scotland, nor the history of abolition of slavery in the various European countries and other countries. When and how was slavery abolished in Spain? (Later than in the USA, I'm guessing, based on the movie Amistad.) What about France, Italy, Germany, etc.? In which countries in slavery legal now? -- Mike Hardy


If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself! Vera Cruz

But I don't know the answers to those questions! -- Mike Hardy

I agree wholeheartedly, and my solution is this: let the abolitionism article be based on the abolition of slavery in North America, and have a seperate, more global article at abolition of slavery. I'll start it as a stub (in place of the current redirect), referencing this page as a "see also". --Sam 15:02, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Oh, dear, this is another one of those articles with a lot of history and baggage... a bit of a mess? Question that need answering:

  1. Is abolitionism primarily a North American term, or is it used elsewhere?

--Sam

[edit] Britain vs. England

Someone changed England to Britain in the article. Unfortunately, that makes some of the information inaccurate. For example "slavery was never widespread within Britain" is not true; that's only true of England herself. Slavery was not abolished in all Britain in 1772; only in England. Etc. I'm going to change some of the references back because of this. Quadell 14:02, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish Date

Could someone verify the Swedish abolition date? Seems very early.


From luth.se, can't really confirm the source, but sounds reasonable, local conditions made slavery uneconomic.

Officially the practice of having slaves was abandoned as a law proclaimed by the king Magnus Eriksson when he travelled through the country in the year of 1335. The original texts do not exist any longer but the pieces which survives says that 'every man and women which is born by a christian man and women is to be free in the county of...'.
The official reason to ban the slavery was the christian faith. In reality other reasons much more powerful than that existed. Economic resaons... It was simply more profitable to have people which could be hired for shorter periods. Instead of having a large workforce which the owner had the responsibility for all year around, even when didn't need them, he could hire them when it was considered necessary.
Instead the farmer could give away a bit of land and let the former slaves pay for cultivating this land with workdays on the his farm. Formally the slaves were free, but in practice the landowner earned money as he didn't have to pay for food during the winter months at the same time as he got his work done any way. A neat arrangement...
Theoretically the slaves now was members of the community with equal rights but they still didn't own anything. For most of the slaves the situation actually had gone from bad to worse.

Further investigation (on this site even) refers to the fact that later the swedes bought the island mentioned in 1783, and slavery was used on that island until the second date.

[edit] Slavery still exists?

This statement was placed on the page by an anonymous user. Not debating whether true or not, but without attribution and evidence it is POV, so am placing here awaiting further comment. Pollinator 18:00, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Slavery even exists today in United States in the form of various plantation workers mainly consisting of desperate immigrants who went to the United States and then were forces into either sexual or agricultural slavery

I think you could make a statement that while in any Country that is signatory to the UN any slavery in any legal form shouldnt be able to take place, that does not mean that individuals and businesses in those countries cannot illegally take part in slavery, or something which is hard to distinguish from it.

Probably this sort of thing is more appropriate in a more general article on slavery though, rather than Abolitionism.

[edit] Slavery in the U.K.

The article says the case deciding slavery was "Somerset v. Maughan". Surely this can't be right. Rudyard vs. Kipling maybe? Ringo vs. Starr...

DNB; "Somerset v. Stewart" Septentrionalis 02:24, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] St. Patrick

Opposed the slave trade, especially the enslavement of free Christians. This is laudable, but it is not abolition. Septentrionalis 02:24, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The fact remains that slavery ceased in areas under the influence of Celtic Christianity. Perhaps that makes them unique as Christians (I'm not sure). But if a society ceases to practice slavery, is that not 'abolitionist'?--194.125.111.194 08:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Mansfield

Lord Mansfield never said or wrote "The air of England ..." The slave's counsel brought up that line, quoting a 16th century legal decision. VoX

[edit] Page Structure

I've just added stuff about UK abolitionism. I've also re-organised the page to make it less US-centric. The national sections should now be chronological, based on final date of abolition. Gailtb 14:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Political Emancipation

The wiki page Political_emancipation could use some attention. Currently it is only a stub. Particularly the explanation of the term 'political emancipation' entailing 'equal status of individual citizens in relation to the state, equality before the law, regardless of religion, property, or other “private” characteristics of individual persons' is construed to be an 'opinion' and 'not delivering a neutral point of view.' Does anyone have more information on the word 'emancipation' also being used in the political context of establishing (or any step moving towards) equality in light of the law? Inserting the Voting Rights Act as such a step of political emancipation was repeatedly erased.

When there have been only 3 African-American Senators in modern times (out of more than 1500 Senators in total), would you say that political emancipation has been achieved? FredrickS 18:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abolitionists

Could "School of Salamanca" or the Revolt of the Comuneros be regarded as abolicionist since they pursued the end of slavement in América?

The end of slavery wasn´t their only goal, but thy could be in a prot-abolitionist seccion or preface or so.


[edit] Anti-Catholicism & Nativism

Have altered the inclusion of anti-Catholicism & nativism together with social reform movements such as temperance, women's suffrage, etc., as these are anti-ethnic movements and not social reform movements. Also amended the paragraph on university participation in antislavery, which is basically correct but overlooks important contributions from established universities. Joe Lockard

The ant-catholic and nativist movements were as much social reform movements as any. Let's not let out own POV get in the way here. Rjensen 18:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Which of the following did the Catholic Church oppose? Saying the abolitionists opposed Catholics because they were against modernization is 1) unspecific 2) an omission of many other reassons for opposition - such as anti-Popism.--JimWae 18:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
    • temperance movement - granted the Irish opposed this, but they were not alone
    • public schooling - quite possibly
    • prison- and asylum-building
    • abolition
    • The Catholic Church (Pope) was against all modern reforms at the time, and said so quite clearly. In the US the Catholics (esp Irish) opposed prohibition, feminism, and utopianism; fought the public schools, opposed Bible reading in schools and fought abolitionists. They strongly denounced protestant churches and Protestants in general as doomed to hell. They insisted (by 1870) the Pope was infallible. The American Catholics had just defeated a local control movement ("trustees) making their bishops all-powerful. I don't recall they took any stand on asylums. (this refers to 1840-1870 era), The Protestants were alarmed to see they were growing rapidly and building a huge network of their own parochial schools and colleges Rjensen 19:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


I've reverted this because it is obviously controversial, but not referenced. If you can come up with a verifiable reference then that is different, but I would humbly suggest that: 1) evangelical Protestantism (and Roman Catholicism for that matter) is rather too complex for such generalisations; 2) it has nothing to do with abolitionism, which is the point of the article. MAG1 21:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Abolitionists thought it was pretty important. See Griffith book, also Filler and especially Osofsky, Gilbert. "Abolitionists, Irish Immigrants, and the Dilemmas of Romantic Nationalism" American Historical Review 1975 80(4): 889-912. Why is this controversial?? I thought everybody knew the Irish and the abolitionists were at each others throats? Rjensen 21:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Syllabus of Errors was 1864 and infallibility 1870. The important source for inclusion in the article is the source that the Irish opposed abolition of slavery? --JimWae 21:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Osofsky covers the prewar Irish; also see The War Against Proslavery Religion: Abolitionism and the Northern Churches, 1830-1865 by John R McKivigan. The Syllabus of Errors and Infallivility were of course taught long before they became official dogma. Some cites: Irish were "staunch opponents of abolition" p 84 of The Columbia Guide To Irish American History by Timothy J Meagher (2005); "many Irish, although by no means all, believed that those who supported blacks were precisely their own enemies. That is, they associated abolitionism with anti-Catholicism and nativism." p 100 of The New York Irish

edited by Ronald H Bayor (1996) Rjensen 21:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The Syllabus says nothing on slavery and the arch-conservative Pope Gregory XVI opposed the slave trade.[1] That said many Catholics, especially Irish, in the US supported slavery for a variety of reasons. Also, I'd presume, Catholics who opposed slavery would've done so for reasons that'd irritate or displease evangelicals. Catholicism of this time was strongly against the Northern industrialist lifestyle and against Protestantism. I know of Medievalist Catholics of today who say indentured servitude and serfdom was preferrable to slavery plus some things Catholics of that era say make me think that when they opposed slavery they did so for that reason. Most Catholic denunciations of slavery involved trading of slaves, internationally or domestically, because the Catholic Church felt it broke up Christian families. If there really were Catholics who opposed slavery in favor of non-racial indentured servitude I think it'd be fair to say they would've been seen, perhaps rightly, as pro-slavery by abolitionists.--T. Anthony 06:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Huh well most "Catholics in good standing" abolitionists I find were of French descent or didn't live in the US. For example Charles Lavigerie, of France, and a few Louisianans. The main Irish Catholic abolitionist was a man named Richard Robert Madden[2] who never lived in the US, but was connected to the Amistad (case).--T. Anthony 07:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right that many abolitionists were strongly anti-Catholic, Granville Sharp for one. However the controversial bit is the reasons for the anti-Catholicism are complex and often theological. So if you have a good point, then I would suggest you reference it fully within the article then it is much more difficult for people to get rid of it. However, do bear in mind that this is an article about abolitionism not abolitionists: how did these arguments affect the cause of abolitionism in the USA? If the answer is not much, then create a new article about it (which sounds as if it would be interesting). MAG1 21:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The cause of abolitionism had strong opponents in the North--led by the Irish Catholics who increasingly dominated the Dem party. (Solution involved a Free Soil Dem movement that drew anti-slave people out of the Dem party and eventually into the GOP). The irish disliked the blacks but they violently hated the abolitionists who they saw as a threat to their religion. This is important as late as the draft riots of 1863. Rjensen 22:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO a contribution explaining this would be great (though what do I know?), and I hope you don't mind me saying, loads better than the broadbrush stuff you started out writing above. Like I said earlier, though I may be teaching you to suck eggs, I think references are a good way of making sure that contributions last, particularly any that touch subjects such as religion. MAG1 22:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slavery in Israel?

The paragraph on slavery in Israel - "Israel is known among those knowledgeable as the world capital of the International slave trade: all three kinds of slavery are rampant there; the police and government, the former incompetent and the both corrupt, do nothing against it: Prostitution is Israel's largest business and foreign labor (Contract slaves) is the foundation of Israel's industry." - reads like an antisemitic fantasy, and isn't supported by any references. I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. I suggest that either it be properly documented and referenced by somebody, or it should be deleted. --JdwNYC 17:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it. Rjensen 20:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alexander Hamilton

The partisan fantasy that Hamilton had an extraordinary abolitionist carreer is being discussed at Talk:Alexander Hamilton#slavery. Septentrionalis 17:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I am glad to see that Governor Jay is included, as he ought to be. Septentrionalis 17:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Roman Catholics and the Irish

The present text reads:

American Catholics (especially the Irish Americans) opposed reforms such as abolition, prohibition, feminism, and utopianism; they opposed Bible reading in schools, and denounced Protestant churches. The abolitionists were alarmed to see Catholics were growing rapidly, especially in the larger cities, where they were becoming politically powerful. As a result many abolitionists embraced nativism as typified by the Know Nothing Movement in the 1850s. In 1849, Garrison wrote that "not a Catholic priest, not a Catholic journal, can be found in this great country, pleading for the liberation of the enslaved; on the contrary, they most heartily stigmatize the abolitionists and all their movements." Thus abolitionism had strong opponents in the North--led by the Irish Catholics who increasingly dominated the Democratic party in major cities. One option for anti-slavery Democrats was the Free Soil Party that drew anti-slavery people out of the main Democratic party and eventually into the anti-slavery Republican party. The Irish disliked the blacks but they violently hated the abolitionists who they saw as a threat to their religion. This was important as late as the draft riots of 1863

This bears a very tenuous relation to its cited sources, however:

[edit] Dooley

  • Daniel O'Connell attacked Washington as a slave-holder, and fought a duel with the American ambassador, Andrew Stevenson, over slavery (11)
      • Charles Lenox Remond a black American Abolitionist O'Connell, and Theobold Mayhew organized a petition with 60,000 singatures urging Irish-Americans to support Abolitionists.
  • Many Irish in America were unsympathetic to blacks, as competitors for jobs (11)
  • Abolition "was seen" by irish-Americans as Protestant.(12)
  • Garrison's remark (13)
    • Not a single bishop supported abolition before 1861.(12)
    • Bishop England of Charleston said that Catholic tradition did not oppose slavery but the slave trade. (13)
    • The Archbishop of New York denounced the petition.(11)

[edit] Osofsky

  • The antislavery moment attempted to reach beyond the "traditional bitter hostility of Protestants towards the papacy and 'Jesuitism' (890)
  • They attacked nativism and the Know=Nothings (890, 903
    • "no more forcible attacks on nativism and Know-Nothingism came out of antebellum America than those of the Garrisonians" 908-9
      • Although some antislavery men found it a bridge to the Republican party 910,
      • Garrison, Qunicy and the other Garrisonians found it a threat and a distraction 910
  • The Irish rejected abolitionists because they defended Irish and black freedom on the same grounds (890)
    • And as immigrants, they revered the Constitution and opposed extra-constitutionalism 900
    • And as an individualist approach, which was opposed to a class approach to relief of the Irish-Americans 903
  • Garrison admired O'Connell, and enlisted him into American antislavery; he had already joined to oppose British slavery. 890-2
    • O'Connel suggested the formation of an all-black colony in Texas to stop the expansion of slavery 892
  • Remond and his address 895-8
  • O'Connell denounced Garrison for anti-sabbatarianism 903
  • Same renark quoted a substanitally correct 906
  • "proslavery position of the Repeal Associations" 903; Garrisonians opposed it 1843-5 903

[edit] McKivigan

  • religious support and on all sides, including pro-slavery 30
  • Roman Catholics welcomed slaveholders
    • Despite prhibiting racial discrimination 27
    • And as ritualists, did not excommunicate for sin, but for heresy 27, 51,
      • Also the Episcopalians and Lutherans
  • Neutrality on slavery during the Civil War 186 191
Every sentence in the passage on Catholics is quite correct. (It talks explitly about American Catholics, not those back in Ireland). For more evidence look at Catholicism and American Freedom: A History by John T. McGreevy (2003) pp 51ff [3]. In the South "The Irish endorsement of slavery and the efforts of the Irish to preserve the South as "a white man's country" after emancipation only endeared them further to southerners." [Gleeson; David T. The Irish in the South, 1815-1877 2001 pp 192-3]; also Strange Kin: Ireland and the American South By Kieran Quinlan, esp .p. 50 [4] Rjensen 08:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Every sentence about the Garrisonians is either misleading or unsupported by the cited sources, as these extracts should make clear to any serious editor. I will read Potter to see if he says anything different. Septentrionalis 14:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV Paragraph

I removed the following as poorly written and rather POV:

Slavery is practiced in the US today primarily by recent immigrants abusing illegal immigrants. The threat of deportation by the INS is often used to enforce captivity. See article "Montgomery Woman Sentenced to 7 Years in Domestic Slavery Case", 19 April 2006 <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/18/AR2006041801520.html>

A better-written account of these kind of activities might have a place in the article, History of slavery. Peter G Werner 23:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two details to Resolve

The poster appears to be an English poster, not a French poster.

What does the phrase:

"The rebels imposed to the First Republic (1792-1804) the repeal of slavery on February 4, 1794."

mean? --Filll 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compensation for slave owners

Hi all - I don't have the time at the moment to edit the article but thought I'd point this out - the article states that "£20 million was paid in compensation to plantation owners in the Caribbean." it would appear that is this incorrect - according to The Great Trek - C Venter ISBN 090923888X Published by Don Nelson 1985 - Page 17 - £1 250 000 of this amount was set aside for the payment of slavery owners at the Cape, even though the slaves there where valued at £3 041 290. On top of this the money was being paid out in London only - and only in British Goverment Stock and not cash.

When I get a chance I can add this to the article, but if someone else wants to in the meantime ... --kilps 12:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1830s

Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in the 1830s, not earlier. GhostofSuperslum 18:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deaths of aboltionists? Were there any?

how many if any people died trying to establish Abolitionism

besides the John Brown group, in Alton Illinois abolitionist and anti-Catholic editor Elijah Lovejoy was attacked and killed by a pro-slavery, pro-Catholic mob in 1837 21:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serfdom

This and several other articles, vide serfdom, seem to be mixing terms denying them any clear meaning. "(nevertheless, there were native-born Scottish slaves until 1799, when coal miners previously kept in serfdom gained emancipation)" Specifically slavery, serfdom (something that was very different from country to country) and Villeinage. We also appear to be mixing dates, England abolishes the trade in serfs in 1102 in one article but continues with serfs to 1600 in another, and to 1500 in yet another. I think we need some clear sense of what we want the terms of mean and then applying it across the articles and agreeing on some dates so the articles are consistent Alci12 13:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

my name is kevin gilmore and i need to leanr about Frederrick Dougless trip to be an abolitionism. can you give me a site.................

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