Talk:A Confederacy of Dunces
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Why is this book tragic (i.e. tragicomedy)? I think this book is the classic comedy, with everything working out for the good guys, and Ignatius escaping before Charity comes to get him. Mauvila 11:00, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Um, "parallel universe?" - Cobra libre 00:08, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should elaborate. Mentioning that A Confederacy of Dunces may take place in a parallel universe doesn't seem appropriate for the topic, and it doesn't seem appropriate in an encyclopedia article generally. Dunces, while perhaps not what one would label a realist novel, isn't science fiction or fantastic fiction, either. Mentioning parallel universes, then, seems a bit outlandish. So to speak.
- I would suggest replacing:
- Various small details in the novel show that A Confederacy of Dunces is set in a New Orleans that is different from the actual one, suggesting to some a setting in a parallel universe.
- With something like:
- Readers familiar with the New Orleans setting of A Confederacy of Dunces may notice that the city described in the novel differs in some ways from the actual one. This may be due to carelessness on O'Toole's part, or may be the result of deliberate artistic intention.
- - Cobra libre 23:34, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
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- Hm. The world of CoD is clearly deliberately different from the actual New Orleans of the 1960s. To use an example mentioned, New Orleanians are well familiar with the fact that just down river is St. Bernard Parish. That in CoD it is "St. Odo of Cluny Parish" IMO can't be attributed to carelessness nor is there any plot reason for it. It is subtle, yes, but the message to readers familiar with New Orleans is clearly that Ignatius lives in a New Orleans that is very much like the real one yet unmistably not the same. Perhaps it is part of Toole's sence of humor, giving a wink to local readers. If you don't like the phrase "parallel universe" I'm quite willing to consider other ways of wording it, but this is a real point. Anyway, the article can use lots more expansion (that's one of too many things on my list to get around to). Cheers, -- Infrogmation 01:16, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- I don't doubt that O'Toole deliberately introduced changes to his New Orleans, but I wanted to remain neutral on the matter, which is why I worded my suggested text as I did. Regardless, while it's interesting that the book's New Orleans differs from the real-world New Orleans, without some indication that these differences are significant to understanding the book, those differences don't strike me as too unusual. (It may be notable trivia that's worth including in the article, of course, because it's of interest to New Orleanians and enthusiasts for the book.)
- In fiction and other narrative arts, it's quite common to introduce changes to real-world settings (think of all the relabeled commercial products that you've seen in movies and television) — indeed, one could claim that the mere fact that fictional characters and fictional occurrences are introduced to real-life settings is a demonstration of this. This is typical and possibly even conventional of storytelling, and there seems to me to be no need to introduce a notion of "parallel universes" to explain this. For example, we don't say that Chekhov's stories took place in a parallel Russia simply because that lady with a dog that he was writing about never existed. So, if all fiction takes liberties with reality, then to claim that Dunces occurs in a parallel universe is to say that all fiction occurs in parallel universes, and if that's the case, then it's not even worth mentioning, because what you mean by fictional parallel universes is taken to be understood by all readers of fiction. In other words, when I open the book of Chekhov and read about the lady with a dog, I already know that it doesn't take place in what I would call the "real" Russia.
- Another issue to consider is that when many readers see this article and read the passage that mentions "parallel universes," they are going to stop taking it seriously, because the idea of parallel universes is popularly considered a fantastic notion that is incongruous with the subject material of the book. Again, this could be avoided, since it isn't necessary to claim that the book takes place in a parallel universe simply because its New Orleans differs slightly from the actual New Orleans; you can simply say that it differs, list the differences, and leave it at that. Best regards, -- Cobra libre 18:01, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
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- OK. Really my biggest objection to your suggested rewrite was the suggestion that the differences were due to carelessness by the author. I'm fine with your first sentence "Readers familiar with the New Orleans setting of A Confederacy of Dunces may notice that the city described in the novel differs in some ways from the actual one." How about leaving at that, or other suggestions? Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:37, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- Okay, I see. Yes, that sounds good to me. I like the restructuring of the article that you've begun. Best, -- Cobra libre 04:12, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Classic comedy
I agree with Mauvila that this book is certainly very close to the Aristotelian definition of comedy. That is people who are beneath the audience are placed in a weird situation that is eventually brought back to something resembling normality. As for the alternate reality theories, the true beauty of this book comes from the self delusional reality that Ignatious lives in. Though he is often used as a narrator(through his writings), he proves himself to be a very unreliable one. Even the third person narration sometimes uses Ignatius-like phrasing. Perhaps, this accounts for the lack of realistic description of the locales. I feel it was certainly intended and that it would also only be picked up on by locals or someone very familiar with New Orleans. I believe it adds to the surrealism that exists throughout all facets of the book and perhaps even helps with suspension of disbelief. It would certainly be hard to swallow that all these dysfuntional characters could exist in one molten pot of hilarity outside of fiction. Therefore, avoiding real places through key points in the book prevent the reader from grounding themselves back in reality. -User:Wrwelch15
My edition of the book makes that exact point about Confederacy being a comedy in the classical sence in its introduction (written by Walter Percy himself). -℘yrop (talk) 04:46, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Would everybody agree that we should change "tragicomedy" to comedy? Mauvila 08:25, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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- "Tragicomedy" was put in by an early editor of the article. I've always been ambivilent about that myself. Changing it is fine by me. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 20:01, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] "St. Odo of Cluny Parish"
I'm not so sure the intent was to have St. Bernard Parish depicted as "St. Odo of Cluny." Santa Battaglia is clearly someone from New Orleans' Ninth Ward; at the time the novel was set, the Ninth Ward was home to many working-class ethnic whites who were by and far Catholic. The Archdiocese of New Orleans placed a number of churches in the area to guide the flock. Sts. Peter and Paul Parish (as in the ecumenical sense--not as in county) is in that area.
My opinion is that Toole implied that St. Odo of Cluny Parish was actually a church parish, as many Catholics in New Orleans refer to their church parish as "where they grew up."
Further, Toole could have been sticking to Ignatius' medieval mindset by renaming Sts. Peter and Paul (or another of the parishes down there) to St. Odo's.
The depiction of the neighborhood soundls like the Ninth Ward too. Duplexes built on top of another, a small sidewalk (banquette) between the curb and the houses and the fact that they walked to the 'picture show' on St. Claude Ave. suggests that Santa lived in the Ninth Ward.
- Interesting! As I remember it the dialogue of the book was consistant with how that generation of New Orleanians refered to going down to "the Parish" meaning St. Bernard, but I'll have to look over those passages again with your alternative explanation in mind. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 01:36, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
(FWIW, I grew up in NO and my family has lived there for several generations.)
I don't think there's any question that "St. Odo of Cluny" (note, it seems to be "St. Ode of Cluny" everywhere in the text) refers to a church parish and not a "county Parish". Quotes from the Penguin edition:
p.151, Chapter Seven, Section 3:
- Santa: "... If you can live down here in St. Ode of Cluny Parish..."
- Mrs. Reilly: "I know what it is, sugar. Remember I lived down there on Dauphine when I was a girl."
I think the reference to Dauphine is almost definitely meant to be to the Ninth Ward. (In theory, it could be the Quarter, but I think it's clear from the book that the Reilly's don't, and never did, live in the Quarter.) You can see from this link that technically Dauphine St. does extend a block and a half into St. Bernard Parish, but it's almost entirely contained in Orleans Parish.
p. 166, Chapter Eight, Section 3:
- Santa: "You'd better believe they's a candle burning for you over at St. Ode's."
That's clearly a church.
Deville 01:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] statues
somebody fix the statues thing,they moved the big bronze one after katrina, right now at the sonesta theres only the fish (behind that bronze one, visble in the photograph), and it's actually behind glass inside the building. i dont need to cite this because i live in this hellhole, and i see it every day with my own eyes.
[edit] Category Change
While looking through the category: Comedy Novels, I noticed a huge oversite. Confederacy of Dunces is missing!!!! I am a rather newb wikian and didn't know how to add things to categories. If someone wanted to change that and right an injustice to the world, it would be great. Also if someone could send me a message telling me how or pointing me to which of the Help wikis would have how to change that, I would appreciate it.
For the record, I am of the opinion that comedy should be used initially and somehow tragicomedy should be worked in later.Qballony 07:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Good point, especially since the author is listed in the main "Comic novel" article. Added. Jonrock 06:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Conclusion (?!)
There's no reason that I can see to have a section outlining the plot of just the last 50 pages of the book in detail. Plot summary is one thing; intentional spoiling is another. It's also not very coherent, since the plot of the first 400 pages is absent, save for the spoilers in "characters". I'm going to remove this. If people have a pressing reason for keeping it, it can be restored. Bombyx 03:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
