Talk:"Heroes"

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The album is actually named "Heroes", although it is often miswritten. Shouldn't this be moved and a redirect put up?

--Directorstratton 09:36, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Note that it's not normal Wikipedia policy to have quotation marks in an article title. Bearcat 02:08, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

True, but in this case, the title really is "Heroes" and not Heroes. --Moochocoogle 03:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've tended to refer to the song as "Heroes" in the t--Jim68000 14:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)ext simply because ""Heroes""really doesn't look good... while I agree the placing of the article is fine, I think the text noting the use of the quotation marks makes the point clearly, and just using the one set for most of the article looks better :)

Tom Prankerd 20:46, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Where is the proof that the quotation marks are part of the album title? Albums by The Smiths and Morrissey have used quotation marks for the album title on the front cover, but they aren't included.

So what? So Smiths fans are less knowledgeable than Bowie fans? I dunno! The quotes are there in the title and intended to be "ironic" - Bowie no doubt discussed this in the NME at the time or whatever but in 2006 its just common knowledge. Why should anyone have to "prove" what's there printed in black and white? If a song had an exclamation mark in the title, would we have to prove that?--feline1 13:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, since album titles are often in quotation marks on covers, and songs are often written in quotation marks elsewhere, I thought maybe some people had made a mistake. Would that mean the song should be written ""Heroes""? Maybe so, but that's kind of pretentious. And I like "Heroes."

[edit] Frippertronics

The introduction mentions the album's critical success, "due in part to its innovative Frippertronics." Does this album actually include Frippertronics? It does include guitar work by Robert Fripp, but nothing on the album (to my ears) sounds like the usual results of Frippertronics. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, actually no, I don't think there's any of Fripp using that tape-delay system, and if producer Tony Visconti had gotten him to use it on the album, it could scarcely have been called "an innovative use of Frippertronics", more "cultural magpie Bowie paying Fripp to grace his album with a technique he'd developed over half a decade earlier".--feline1 07:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I've removed the reference from the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The song "Heroes" definitely includes a Fripp delay playing over the thing, but I'm no longer sure if this qualifies as Frippertronics or some other system entirely. Kramden 18:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I think you're completely wrong, sorry ;-) There was a feature in http://www.soundonsound.com last year where Tony Visconti detailed how that track was recorded. He said Eno got Fripp to set up his guitar in the live room, cranked up loud, with loads of different speakers in it, so it was feeding back continuously. Fripp then altered the pitch of the notes by walking to different parts of the room, where the different standing waves would make it feed back on different notes! Gee, those crazy guys! But anyways, no revox tape delay at all. LOL--feline1 13:09, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Which guitarist?

Are we missing a guitarist here? The personnel listing for Low has Fripp, but the personnel listing for Blackout has Adrian Belew playing the lead. My memory is that Belew didn't play on any Bowie records until Lodger (when presumably the real Robert Fripp was busy) - can someone with a decent reference sort out the confusion. --Jim68000 14:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Jim, your memory is correct, it's your eyes that are failing you ;-). "Heroes" indeed had Fripp (I presume you mean 'The personnel listing for "Heroes" has Fripp', not 'The personnel listing for Low has Fripp'). If you have another look at "Blackout" you may discern that the personnel listing - like the infobox - refers to the live single version released in Japan that was originally from the album Stage, which did feature Belew. Personally I don't think we really needed that much detail for a non-UK single release by a UK artist but, anyway, that's where your confusion lies... Cheers, Ian Rose 15:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why Reversion of 01 Sept 2006

"Sic is a Latin word meaning "thus", "so", or "just as that". In writing, it is italicized and placed within square brackets — [sic] — to indicate that an incorrect or unusual spelling, phrase, or other preceding quoted material is a verbatim reproduction of the quoted original and is not a transcription error.

This may be used either to show that an uncommon or archaic usage is reported faithfully (for instance, quoting the U.S. Constitution, "The House of Representatives shall chuse [sic] their Speaker...") or to highlight an error, often for the purpose of ridicule or irony (for instance, "Dan Quayle famously changed a student's spelling to 'potatoe' [sic]"), or otherwise, to quote accurately whilst maintaining the reputation of the person or organisation quoting its source."

Sic is just another way to say "the quotation marks are part of the title" without having to say all that. I'm sorry about the tracks, i didn't know. I'll just replace the [Sic] and keep everything else the way it was. Ok? dposse 18:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand you rpoint... but why make a fuss? Track listings must have quotes around song names. Fantailfan 22:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Unless the quotes are on the CD case, i don't think it's needed here. However, if you don't see anything wrong with the quotes, i'm not going to fight about it. dposse 23:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. "Heroes" is preciously in quotes, both in the album title and in the song. In addition, all songs have double quotes per WikiProject:Album standards, so both ""Heroes"" and "Heroes" (album) are correct. Fantailfan 23:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I think we can knock this on the head. Dposse, I also see your point about [sic] but I agree with Fantailfan that in this context it's being too clever. Whether the quotes are on the CD case or not is immaterial, they're part of Bowie's design and that fact can be sourced. Their use here has been subject to discussion before (see top) and the wording used previously came out of that discussion (Fantailfan, to be exact, the phrasing wasn't actually mine but I had no problem with it). I propose we say "(the quotation marks are part of the title, for reasons of irony)" to explain the situation, which is similar to how I put it in the "Heroes" song article - and I'll do that unless there are violent objections. Cheers, Ian Rose 23:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[Sic] does that without using all those words. I don't see why we can't just use it instead of saying "the quotation marks are part of the title". It's like "cannot" and "can't". They are both the same, but one is just a contraction of the other. dposse 05:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Because, in the context of this article, [sic] is POV. You don't see it in contemporary writing except as a snarky comment. If you are a scholar and writing articles or books, it is appropriate. Otherwise, avoid. Fantailfan 12:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Are you joking? It's used throughout wikipedia! It has no point of view. dposse 17:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
As I say, in this context it does. Fantailfan 19:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
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