Talk:Ōme, Tokyo

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Japan To-do:

Though an understandable mistake, Oume, Tokyo is NOT Ōme, Tokyo. Although both would be spelled おうめ (o, u, me) in Japanese, the city name does not contain what we call in English a 'long vowel' but rather is a combination of the o vowel and the word ume, like the plum. The pronounciation is slightly different as well, Ōme sounding like /ohmeh/ and Oume sounding more like /Oh-umeh/.

I am redirecting it to the correct spelling now, please don't move it back! freshgavin TALK 04:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to clarify a bit more ... you'll notice that even the official website writes Ome, which is wrong. Pretty much everywhere that doesn't use wapuro style spells it that way, so you could argue that it's universal and should just be left that way. In reality quite a few compounds are very commonly spelt wrong, for example sho, which is spelled syo about 60% of the time in advertising and names etc. but ōme and oume have a distinct difference in pronounciation (due to the pronounced /u/) and thus they should be spelled correctly. freshgavin TALK 05:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Official spelling vs. pronounciation or the way it should be spelled?

I think if its universally accepted that its Ōme (no matter if its the right or wrong pronounciation) it should be left as Ōme.

1. The Official government website lists the english spelling as Ōme.

2. The main train station is named and listed on official maps and websites as Ōme.

3. The official name of the train line is the Ōme line as noted on official english maps.

Sources showing the english spelling to be Ōme and not OUME.

1. Official Ōme Government Website http://www.city.ome.tokyo.jp/

2. Official website of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government listing Ōme. http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/ENGLISH/LINKS/links4.htm

3. East Japan Railway Company website (map) http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/info/map_a4ol.pdf Note: Spelling of Ōme station and Ōme line.

4. Tokyo Tourism Info, which is an official website of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government. http://www.tourism.metro.tokyo.jp/english/spot/ome1.html

Since its universally spelled Ōme on official english documents, I think the page should be go back to its original Ōme page, and if you want to note the proper way to pronounce the city, do a write up on the information page.

stationmaster 13:28, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you (yet) but be careful. Only one of those pages (JR) spells Oume as Ōme, the rest use simply Ome. If we were to use those sources as the benchmark for spelling (not including JR) you could say that it's officially (universally) Ome, which not only would be incorrect, but would go against Wiki's policy for naming these things.

But besides that, I'll agree that yes, it is pretty much universally Ōme (a good 90% or so of sources in Japan will leave out the macron for reasons pertaining to style) but what I'm argueing is that Oume is a rare exception to the rule because of the unique character readings and it doesn't logically make sense to force it to conform to the standards of spelling that don't apply to it. とうきょう is spelled simply Tokyo or Heburnized as Tōkyō for the reason that 'ou' seems to have 2 vowel sounds in English, but in Japanese it is considered a long vowel. When there is no long vowel and the individual sounds are pronounced, the macroned ō shouldn't be used.

I don't know if I'll be able to argue this against the mob but I will if I have to, and obviously I'll have to give in if enough people disagree with me. Freshgavin 05:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm no expert on languages, my whole point is and all I'm trying to get across is that for wiki, an encyclopedia, we must use how the official spelling, or the universally accepted spelling and not just redirecting the page to how it should be written or pronounced. Be it Ome or Ōme, its still appears with the letters O-M-E without the "U" on official government websites and maps. I'm sure you can do a write up on an information page about how its supposed to actually be pronounced and spelled, but, its universally accepted and listed on official sites as O-M-E with and without the macroned letter ō but never appears with the the "U".

stationmaster 01:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

You're not wrong. I've been trying to get other people to voice their opinions to make this decision a little more fair. I guess my problem is the meaning of 'official' in this case. Official hepburn would imply Oume, but Tokyo official would imply Ome, or Ōme. I'd personally prefer backing hepburn rather than Tokyo, but there's obviously quite a few cases already where the correct spelling isn't supported by the masses. For example the standard spelling of 藤 names like Katoh or Gotoh for baseball players and such. I just have a problem with an officialized name that is based on a misinterpretation in the first place. freshgavin TALK 23:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Again, all i'm saying is it appears as Ome or Ōme and the sake of things its three letters. I'll go back to the train thing, I went to Ome city before btw, to visit the Ome railpark, at the JR station back in Shinjuku, I went and looked Ome up on the map and the train timetable, officially on those maps and timetables its three letters O-M-E. If I were to index and look up O-U-M-E I won't find where I need to go, because officially noted by the government and on maps its spelled O-M-E with no U. I sorta view the spelling of baseball players names a little different from the official english spelling of a city name. Not to mention it'll be confusing as heck if someone went into the numerious rail related aritcles here on wiki and changed the Ome line to Oume line, it'll confused people a lot because on maps the train line, train station and city name, etc its officially spelled Ome not Oume.

The only thing I can repeat is that I think it should be left as Ome, or Ōme and you can write up on the article page on how it should actually be spelled or pronounced. But officially and universally accepted english spelling version is the three lettered O-M-E.

stationmaster 19:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm with stationmaster on this one. Most common name is the overriding consideration, so Ōme is the best name, but the pronunciation should certainly be covered in the article. Jpatokal 02:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. I'll agree with you stationmaster on the 'looking for Ome on a train map' point. I just feel it could be understood just was well with a redirect and a note. freshgavin TALK 04:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The use of a macron, or no macron (but a "u"), or no macron (without "u") is a minor, but real, point. I agree that the vowel here is not a "long vowel," if by the term we mean a two-mora vowel sound associated with a single kanji. So the next question is: do we interpret the Hepburn macron as applying only to long vowels, or do we extend it to anything that the Japanese write 「おう」 (or with こう、そう、or any other kana ending with an "o" sound followed by う)? Additionally, the question applies to other おう words as freshgavin mentioned, and to うう as it occurs in compounds like "riku-u" (陸羽). So, I would feel most comfortable discussing use of the macron on the Manual of Style talk page, rather than here or the Tokyo talk page.
Regarding Ome specifically, it's interesting to note that of the four web sites in the list introduced by the title "Sources showing the english spelling to be Ōme and not OUME" above, three spell the name without a macron. Fg2 07:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Again my whole point is, its officially written in english by government sources as three letters not four, in none of the official cases is it written with a "U" in all cases its written with three letts O-M-E. Thats how its offically written, I'm not arguing on how its supposed to be written or pronounced, and I think it should appear here on with (with three letters) and then someone could do a write up on how its supposed to actually be spelled or pronounced. If not, what next, change everything on wiki show Ome or macronised Ome to Oume, it would be wrong in my view because officially and universally accepted spelling if one were to not know Japanese and look it up its spelled with three letters not four. I think we should leave the official/main title with the three letters and discuss in the article for the city the proper way to pronounce the place. Ah, I see its also being discussed at the bottom of the manual of style page.

stationmaster

The kana should be "Ou-me", correct? Either way, official sources call it "Ome". WhisperToMe 23:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Its been proposed on the manual of style talk board that the page appear as Ōme (青梅市; Oume-shi) I like this option, and I think its good to keep the official spelling (though there is some debate about macrons, wiki appears to be pro macron) (I have no problem as it keeps the three lettered version without the U in the official name), then include in parenthesis and included in the article page the proper way to pronounce the city name. stationmaster 17:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Once again, the discussion is taking place at Manual of Style talk page (MoS Talk). If you express opinions here at Talk: Oume, Tokyo, you should also make the same point there. The discussion is broader in scope than one specific article, and in matters like that, we should discuss and decide at MoS Talk. Fg2 02:19, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, and Yes I have been crossposting in both to keep folks updated. stationmaster

[edit] I don't think it is Oume

I think Freshgavin and others are assuming that, because one of the kanji in Ome is ume, that this should be preserved in the spelling of Ome. While completely understandable (I just had to spend a half hour doing some research myself), this appears to be incorrect. First, as we all know, Japanese (particularly names) are rife with ateji, or examples of words where the pronunciation of a compound is different from its components. I'll present three pieces of evidence why the u should not be preserved in the spelling of Ome (i.e. it should either be Ome or Ōme). First, and admittedly the least convincing, is simple pronunciation. Although there does appear to be a very slight u sound just before the me when most people pronounce the word 青梅, I don't think it is nearly as distinguishable as it would be if someone where consciously pronouncing, for example, the word ume with an honorific o affixed to it. And in any event, I'm not sure the sound is all that distinguishable from the pronunciation of 大目, because you must purse your lips at the end of the o sound in order to pronounce the m. Second, slightly more convincing, is that if you look the word up in Kojien (one of the most authoritative Japanese dictionaries), you will see that the historical kana usage for the word was アヲメ, or awo + me. In other words, the u was completely dropped in the spelling that was accepted even before modern kana usage was adopted. Finally, and the most convincing to me, is that you will find an overwhelming number of people (companies with factories in Ome, the city itself, etc.) spelling it Ome. If the Japanese were conscious of a u being in there from the "plum" component, there is no way you would be able to shorten it to just the letter O. This widely accepted dropping of the u makes it much more analagous to the dropping of the hiragaa us in the speling of Tokyo (since they only act as vowel lengtheners).-Jefu 02:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of pronuciation, Ome and Oume are different. Here're my recordings, just for comparison (both are Ogg Vorbis format):

[1] - Ome Oume (natural speed), Ome Oume (slow), Ome-Tokkai Oume-Tokkai (青梅特快)
[2] - 青梅線大目に見る (uh, I forgot to record 多め or 多目, but it's the same as 大目)

Although the difference is almost negligible when spoken fast, I believe most Japanese people imagine おーめ(Ome or O-me) not おうめ(Oume) in their mind when they pronounce 青梅; and I guess this is related to your third point. I mean, many people spell it Ome probably (at least partly) because they pronounce it as おーめ. Nevertheless, it is possible to put "a very slight u sound just before the me", say, おぅめ(O_ume(?)), and I suspect people who spell it Oume might prefer to prounce it more like this. - Marsian / talk 14:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the recordings Marsian, I'm sure those will put an end to the discussion, at least as far as this page is concerned. (I'm not online enough to keep track of the whole discussion at the moment...). Unfortunately it won't get noticed on this page... the main discussion is over at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Japan-related_articles). I'm not sure why Jefu was posting here. freshgavin TALK 05:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

We pronounce long o and short me, not short o and short u and short me while we write おうめ. It is to be written as Ōme or Ôme or Ohme or Ome, not Oume in all styles of Japanese Roman scripts.--っ 16:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on a long discussion on the manual of style page for Japan related articles (reference February 2006 archive) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29/misc5, I am changing this back to the Ome spelling, and leaving Oume spelling in the perenthesis. limitedexpresstrain 19:54, 05 June 2006 (UTC)

Jefu and っ are right. 青梅 is [oːme], not *[oɯme] (in Japanese: オーメ, not オウメ). Specifically, it is a long o, ie ō. As Jefu correctly points out, 梅 which is normally read "ume" is only "me" here. おう < あを is a regular phonological development in Japanese. This should be "Ōme". I read though the discussion at How should Wikipedia write 青梅. Now I would like to change this to Ōme, Tokyo. Appropriate redirects and sort keys will be added. If there are any objections, please speak up. Bendono 04:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It sounds ok -- I think I advocated that somewhere.

Incidentally, the links to User:limitedexpresstrain and User:stationmaster above are red. Normally if a user simply stops contributing, the links remain blue. Does anyone know what happened to them? Fg2 07:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I will give it a few more days for responses. User:limitedexpresstrain is now known as Limitedexpresstrain. User:stationmaster is just an IP: 68.34.14.69. Bendono 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the update on the users. Fg2 01:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)